The "Official" Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A1030, RX-A2030, RX-A3030 and CX-A5000/MX-A5000 Thread - Page 64 - AVS Forum
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post #1891 of 3405 Old 03-07-2014, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by cougar75 View Post

Another reason to go with separates. smile.gif

For twice the price! wink.gif
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post #1892 of 3405 Old 03-08-2014, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by cougar75 View Post

Another reason to go with separates. smile.gif

agreed

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For twice the price! wink.gif

you get what you pay for....smile.gif


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post #1893 of 3405 Old 03-08-2014, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

For twice the price! wink.gif

And for twice (or more) the space. I only have one system that I use separates in...due primarily to space constraints (I have quite a few power amps stored in a closet, unused).
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post #1894 of 3405 Old 03-08-2014, 06:59 AM
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I hear you, I use (3) CA-M600 and a CA-5200

:eek: Holy crap that's like $27,000 just for the amps!!!

 

 

 

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post #1895 of 3405 Old 03-08-2014, 09:23 AM
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By concentrating on audio quality of the dac's etc. I think the setup you chose actually degraded the smoothness of the sound. Consumers can't afford to spend money on dual subs and use them in stereo only outputting a 20 to 40hz range. And I think that actually harmed your sound quality. This is based on the figure #2 results. The antimode did flatten out the subwoofer curve some. But you also used it on the front speaker signal and receivers can't do this without external amps (like the pre/pro has to use).

I know you can't redo the testing for a magazine that is already printed, however it would be nice to see your full range room readings with the A5000 crossed at 80hz dual mono. I think the sound quality would be much improved (except at the deep bass, 20hz). If you did do a position reading of full range it would be nice to see those graphs here. Nowadays clean sound is pretty much a given. The setup settings and the performance of the auto room eq is more important in home theater receivers. And the performance of one of the few brands to include a decent manual peq would be nice to critique.

.

kikkenit2 you are assuming and asking for too much. No review will ever be airtight complete for every possible setup. Kal already expained the how and why of his review to you. He has been reviewing audio equipment and doing a very good job of it for long time. And for the record I also run a stereo sub setup. I have for many years. In fact I run dual stereo subs, two on each channel.
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post #1896 of 3405 Old 03-08-2014, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

For twice the price! wink.gif
Says the guy with B&W speakers - c'mon wse - pony up! tongue.gif

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Marantz AV 8801 Processor, Emotiva XPR-5 Amplifier, Panasonic 65" ST30 Plasma, Yamaha BD-S2900 Blu-ray, Yamaha CDC-697 CD Player, Yamaha TT-500U Turntable, w/Signet TK5e, JBL ES100 Fronts, JBL LC2 Center, JBL ES30 Surrounds & 2 JBL ES250P Subwoofers
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post #1897 of 3405 Old 03-08-2014, 09:50 AM
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Says the guy with B&W speakers - c'mon wse - pony up! tongue.gif

This is for an other system with MMG speakers that cost $600 wink.gif
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post #1898 of 3405 Old 03-08-2014, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post
He complained about lack of deep bass. 

Can you point out where I made that complaint?


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post #1899 of 3405 Old 03-08-2014, 07:34 PM
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Sirius has been added by firmware? Correct?

Does it work well?
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post #1900 of 3405 Old 03-08-2014, 07:51 PM
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Sirius or Spotify?

No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!
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post #1901 of 3405 Old 03-08-2014, 08:01 PM
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sirius

. The same firmware Update, 1.35 i think, mentions Sirius. The main yamaha site does not mention sirius with the 3030. Before my Onkyo decided not to work, this was a handy feature I used on the other Zones.
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post #1902 of 3405 Old 03-08-2014, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by dryeye View Post

And for the record I also run a stereo sub setup.
Forgot to mention earlier. In the review front/rear subwoofer didn't work for stereo, only the front.
Both worked in surround sound. He left it on that setting anyway. There are 3 options, including left/right.
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post #1903 of 3405 Old 03-09-2014, 03:11 AM
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These were probably the most important quotes I took from the Stereophile review.
Page #47. "Nor were any filters applied to the subwoofers below 125Hz;" and
Page 47/49. "YPAO was not applying EQ below 100Hz."
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post #1904 of 3405 Old 03-09-2014, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post

These were probably the most important quotes I took from the Stereophile review.
Page #47. "Nor were any filters applied to the subwoofers below 125Hz;" and
Page 47/49. "YPAO was not applying EQ below 100Hz."

 

I agree. This is very disappointing. I expected YPAO to be equivalent to Audyssey.

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post #1905 of 3405 Old 03-09-2014, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post
Page 49. "Adding proper subwoofer EQ brought all the low bass up to the level"...
"I took the second option, and inserted the DSpeaker AntiMode 2.0". Was it this $1100 device?
http://www.simplifiaudio.com/dspeaker_store.html

Yes.  As I have stated before in this thread, I was not necessarily recommending that one needed to spend $1100 but that I had the AM 2.0 on on-hand and it was the easiest solution for me.  

 

Quote:
"I bit the bullet and ran XTZPro"... Did you also use this $330 device?
http://store.acousticfrontiers.com/XTZ-Room-Analyzer-II-Pro.html

I did some measurements (unpublished) with that device.

 

Quote:
Page #47 "I reset them to have a bass cutoff of 40Hz."
Page #49. Fig.2 "implementation of bass equalization (16-120Hz) with the AntiMode 2.0"
Didn't you actually use 1 AntiMode on the subs and another on the fronts?
If not, how did you generate the after (red) line from 40hz to 120hz? Thanks for any reply's.

Only one AM 2.0 was used on the two subs and the EQ for the main channels remained as set by YPAO.  The data for the published graph was generated by the AM 2.0.

 

Quote:
Page #49. "with additional bass EQ, that problem completely disappears, and choosing between it and the Marantz becomes very difficult."

The "problem" was not lack of bass but, rather, indistinct low bass.  It was cured by the AM 2.0 but it could have been cured by filters (from XTZ or REW or Omnimic) manually programmed into the Yamaha's PEQ.

 

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Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post
http://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-57-page-2
To address room-EQ challenges that don't easily succumb to a Typical calibration, the Anti-Mode 2.0's Advanced calibration offers three more tools. First, one can adjust the bass-level compensation from Off—which provides no dip compensation, and allows more headroom for those who'll be applying custom "house" curves—to Max, which adds about 2dB gain for the filters, but with the reminder that one "can not, will not, and should not" attempt to correct true nulls, which will require infinite amplifier power.
This explains the -15db null at 81hz in figure 2.

Quite rightly, too.  

 

Quote:
These were probably the most important quotes I took from the Stereophile review.
Page #47. "Nor were any filters applied to the subwoofers below 125Hz;" and
Page 47/49. "YPAO was not applying EQ below 100Hz."

In the room and configuration used, that is true and that is why additional EQ efforts, described above were necessary.

 

I think that we should end this exchange here and revert to more general issues, as needed.


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post #1906 of 3405 Old 03-09-2014, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by bweissman View Post

I agree. This is very disappointing. I expected YPAO to be equivalent to Audyssey.
I wouldn't give up on yamaha just yet. Once the professional reviewer tweaked the bass frequencies he found the overall sound quality better than the Marantz. It just takes a little more work than xt32. I was trying not to quote him so his word search wasn't getting any hits. And honestly, after reading audio reviews for 40 years I am still waiting to find something that sounds bad. That is why most of my comments were based on the frequency amplitude graph (eq plot). I think the internal peq can solve every peak and dip, except for the dip at 20hz.

His testing revealed that the newest flagship ypao performs exactly the same as my 2 year old mid-level receiver version. His lower frequency bands set the eq filters exactly the same as mine. Both subwoofer and fronts. Bad news for sure. That just means you really need an accurate room measuring setup. As long as you have a computer that can be done for less than $200.

I downloaded some free single frequency test tones. My subwoofer does have a small dip at 20hz and a few other bass range dips and peaks that I can't smooth out internally. Nothing drastic that I can't live with. And a subwoofer external eq device can be had for about $300-400. If you can live with a dip at only 20hz the internal peq is probably good enough.

The testing did reveal that if you do use 2 subwoofers front/rear is only good for single sub for music and stereo sub for movies. The better option is left/right stereo for music and dual mono for movies. I don't think there is a simple way to switch back and forth. So pick the setup that you prefer overall. Just make sure left/right really does use both subs for 2 channel sources. The reviewer would have had to move his subs around to use left/right. That is just not practical. Main reason I wanted him to try dual mono.

The biggest problem I saw in the eq plot was the massive null at 81hz. I am confident that selecting a crossover of 80hz would cure that quite a bit. With the subwoofer and the mains all playing 80hz the dip would be much smaller. I really think that and use of the internal 4 band sub filter along with the 7 band main filters can solve any and all large dips and peaks. Eventually somebody will try it and report before and after results of the full bandwidth. Other than a few questionable setting choices (and some confusion by me) the review was very detailed and informative. Way better than the previous review that didn't even connect a subwoofer. Kal is going to review the expensive Krell next. I bet he finds way more deficiencies in that unit than the yamaha. Stay tuned.
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post #1907 of 3405 Old 03-09-2014, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bweissman View Post

I agree. This is very disappointing. I expected YPAO to be equivalent to Audyssey.

I still haven't been able to set up the 3030 due to a head cold that won't let me stop coughing and/or sneezing long enough to not influence the mics readings. So take this for what it's worth. But I'm under no illusion that YPAO is the equivalent to Audyssey's latest. While I've heard it favorably compared to XT32 by a few users, in their unique listening environments as well as by one reviewer, I know, in his, I've also seen it rather convincingly argued that YPAO is likely closer to the older Audyssey MultiEQ than XT or XT32, in terms of auto-correction. It seems to me, people who prefer Yamaha like the brand for it's reliability and build, in addition to specific features or their perception of the sound. I know I saw a demo at BB that was grossly skewed towards the Yamaha's favor, due to one of the 2030's features being left on that make the Yamaha more articulate at lower volumes. At least that's what I've concluded was the most likely reason for the difference I heard. Since then, I went back to demo them again in pure direct, and at closer to reference volumes, and couldn't tell much difference between the quality of sound, comparing a Yamaha 2030 with a Marantz 7007. Both sounded terrific. I've even heard some owners that seemed to chose Yamaha because of it's supposedly milder auto-correction.

I myself bought the 3030 in spite of YPAO, more than because of it. I've used Audyssey for at least 7 or 8 years and have come to trust it overall, even though I've found the microphone positioning very critical to getting accurate readings; but in my research for a new AVR, I've come to understand that there's an element that doesn't trust automatic room correction, some who even seem to think Audyssey does too much. Whether Yamaha too believes auto correction to be too flawed or heavy handed to rely on, and just came up with YPAO to compete, for those customers who don't even know what a SPL meter is and needs some help with the basics; or they decided they'd rather put money into their own company rather than licensing someone elses EQ product, possibly increasing their cost or forcing them to cut corners elsewhere to cover the licensing fees, I haven't a clue. Maybe I'm underestimating the company, afterall they do seem to put more into their DSPs than any other brand: Just looking at the 3030's manual you'll see that in addition to measuring specific auditoriums/stadiums/clubs/etc. around the world for their sound modes, they offer an incredible range of adjustment, seemingly for each DSP. I've always practically hated DSPs, but I'm actually rather excited to try some of Yamahas, particularly for music.

Again, having not actually run YPAO yet, only being familiar with Audyssey XT and lower, but having done a sizeable amount of research online over the past few months, I regard YPAO more as Audyssey lite, that YPAO itself is more basic in design, with possibly the exception of the angle correction feature that might be especially useful in rooms with odd speaker placement, but not as useful in others. One Yamaha tech thought it wouldn't be useful at all, in a room with optimal speaker placement. I've spoken with several Yamaha techs now, while researching their AVRs, and even they seem to convey that YPAO is mostly engineered for setting basic levels and distances than anything. One told me he doesn't even use YPAO with his Yamaha, which seemed to say a lot. I tend to think thatYamaha's are more geared for the DIYer; and in that regard their models featuring manaul EQ, ultimately, might be more appropriately compared with Audyssey Pro, surpassing what can be done with XT32 alone, but without having to pay another 500? bucks for the pro kit and 150 more for the license. Of course, since the Yamaha can't EQ below 31Hz either automatically or manually, one would have to factor another couple hundred for a Behringer or something to make it a truely even comparison, assuming I'm interpretting some of the things I've read accurately. Hopefully, I'll be able to qualify such from more intimate experience soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post

I wouldn't give up on yamaha just yet. Once the professional reviewer tweaked the bass frequencies he found the overall sound quality better than the Marantz. It just takes a little more work than xt32. I was trying not to quote him so his word search wasn't getting any hits. And honestly, after reading audio reviews for 40 years I am still waiting to find something that sounds bad. That is why most of my comments were based on the frequency amplitude graph (eq plot). I think the internal peq can solve every peak and dip, except for the dip at 20hz.


.

Could you clarify what review you're referring to? The only two "professional" pieces I've read that referenced a Marantz model, while their writers were seemingly impressed by the Yamaha, they didn't make any claim as to liking it better than Marantz.

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post #1908 of 3405 Old 03-09-2014, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post
I wouldn't give up on yamaha just yet. Once the professional reviewer tweaked the bass frequencies he found the overall sound quality better than the Marantz. It just takes a little more work than xt32   .......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... Kal is going to review the expensive Krell next. I bet he finds way more deficiencies in that unit than the yamaha. Stay tuned.

Right.  I think our exchange has obscured that conclusion.  As for the Krell, wait and see.


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post #1909 of 3405 Old 03-09-2014, 11:28 PM
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Could you clarify what review you're referring to?
Stereophile magazine. The review isn't free yet.
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post #1910 of 3405 Old 03-09-2014, 11:31 PM
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I think our exchange has obscured that conclusion.
I took most of it down. You can sell magazines again.
So Chad and many more want to know. Yamaha or Marantz?
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post #1911 of 3405 Old 03-10-2014, 09:13 AM
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I took most of it down. You can sell magazines again.
So Chad and many more want to know. Yamaha or Marantz?

No problem.  We probably sell more mags when there is controversy.  OTOH, I have to say that I undertook responding to you with some trepidation as such exchanges can easily devolve into nastiness.  This one did not.

 

What can I say that I have not?  It is a difficult choice between them and the outcome is quite personal.  Because I am keeping the Marantz I own, I do not have to decide.

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post #1912 of 3405 Old 03-10-2014, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post

Stereophile magazine. The review isn't free yet.

Thanks. That's the one I haven't seen yet. Interesting that all three major reviews compare it with a Marantz pre-pro. I might have searched out a print copy or subscribed online to read it before buying the 3030, if the review was actually for the 3030 itself. But, as there aren't any pro-reviews for the 3030 itself yet, I've been having to draw conclusions from user reviews, discussion boards, pro-reviews of the 5000 and 3020, as well as talking to Yamaha techs.

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I took most of it down. You can sell magazines again.
So Chad and many more want to know. Yamaha or Marantz?

I don't expect a definitive answer to such is even possible. I'm sure they're both excellent brands, each with it's own strengths. From everything I've read, I gambled on Yamaha mostly for perceived greater reliability.

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post #1913 of 3405 Old 03-10-2014, 09:23 AM
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How about we all just agree that Yamaha put out one heck of a good piece of equipment in the RX-A3030 and CX-A5000, etc... ?

 

Anytime a Yamaha is compared more than favorably with a flagship Marantz - Yamaha has to be doing something right...

 

And we all should be happy about that!

 

:p 

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Originally Posted by HDTVAV View Post

How about we all just agree that Yamaha put out one heck of a good piece of equipment in the RX-A3030 and CX-A5000, etc... ?

Anytime a Yamaha is compared more than favorably with a flagship Marantz - Yamaha has to be doing something right...

And we all should be happy about that!

tongue.gif  

I, for one, am very happy! I waited years to replace my RX-Z11 with a Yamaha product that I felt was a worthwhile upgrade (I have been using separate amps with the Z11 since I first purchased it in 2007 so the prepro was the obvious choice). I have nothing against the Marantz (no experience with it), but I am a big Yamaha DSP fan and already had 11 speakers in my room! wink.gif
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I also have no regrets replacing my B&K Ref 50 S2 and Yamaha RX-A3010 (which I baught to get by when the B&K died) with my CX-A5000. I too was also on the fence between it and the Marantz 8801. The capability to switch HDMI inputs while the unit was on standbye was the deciding factor as I do not use YPAO or Audysee. Some people seem upset that the Sub outs on the Yamaha are not XLR personaly for subs I cannot tell a difference with either type of cable. My CX-A5000 has been rock solid since the day I set it up and I was one of the first to receive one. I could not be happier and I believe both units are excellent choices.

Yamaha CX-A5000, ATI AT 2007 Amp (7X200W), ATI AT 2004 Amp (4X200W)Klipsch RF 63's - Main, RB 61's - Front heights, RC-62 - Center, RS-62's - Surround, RS-52's - Rear Surround, 2 Rythmik DS-1510 DIY Subwoofers (With PEQ600XLR3 Amp) each connected with Antimode 8033S-II, Oppo BDP-95, MMF-7.1, Project Phono Box RS, XBox 360, XBox One
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post #1916 of 3405 Old 03-10-2014, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by smitty8451 View Post

My CX-A5000 has been rock solid since the day I set it up and I was one of the first to receive one. I could not be happier and I believe both units are excellent choices.
I still have some issue with the dual subwoofer setup. Which of the 3 options are you using and what crossover level are you using on the fronts? Thanks. Your setup is similar to what Kal used in his review. I just noticed the 1030 and below models only have a global crossover setting. D&M products allow more then 1 crossover level way down the line.
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post #1917 of 3405 Old 03-10-2014, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Because I am keeping the Marantz I own.
I read your review of the Marantz. And the paradigm front speakers you are using? The paradigm eq plot is flat at 80hz. The 8801 review doesn't have a bass range eq plot like the A5000 review. I am still concerned about the 15db in room dip at 81hz in figure 2. Was this intentional? Is it possible to measure the same setup using the xtzpro on the 8801 and post it here? The link to the Revel speaker review is dead. Take this pm if you want. Thanks for your patience. I would really like to see what a front crossover of 60hz would do. And maybe a dual mono subwoofer setting.
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post #1918 of 3405 Old 03-10-2014, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by HDTVAV View Post

How about we all just agree that Yamaha put out one heck of a good piece of equipment in the RX-A3030 and CX-A5000, etc... ?
The yamaha's have no way to boost the below 25hz frequency range. I believe d&m products can (auto only). Not a big issue, but I would like to establish the difference. I would like to verify the lowest frequency the 8801 (xt32) can boost.
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post #1919 of 3405 Old 03-10-2014, 02:40 PM
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I am a new owner of the RX-A1030 and overall I am super happy with it. I am coming from a Onky NR616 and the difference is night and day. That said I am running into two issues:

1. When I connect my Sony BPD-BX58 Blu-ray player using HDMI 1080P, the receiver does not send a picture to the TV. When I scale back to 1080I it is working fine. I reseted the player to factory defaults, still the same issue.

2. I also have a 'bookshelf" HTPC based on AMD E350/Brazos. When I connect the PC, I get blue sparkles and dotted lines when the background is black. I also get red/white/green sparkles when the PC background colors change. When I scale back to 1080I, everything works fine. I installed the latest AMD drivers, even beta drivers, no luck.

I have switched out cables and nothing changes. I have tested 1080P output from my work Thinkpad notebook to the receiver and it worked just fine. I also tried different inputs, same results.

What is odd that neither the blu-ray player nor my HTPC had these issues with with the Onkyo. For the record I got the receiver refurbished. It is working 100% in all aspects with the exception of these two issues. I am on the fence though whether I should send it back.

My next step is to put the PC and Blu-ray into the TV HDMI port directly and test 1080P output this way. If this works with both devices, then I will likely return the RX-A1030 as something funky is going on.

Does this problems sound familiar to anyone? Any ideas/suggestions? I'd rather not jump through the hoops of returning. I am hoping it's some setting somewhere....
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post #1920 of 3405 Old 03-10-2014, 02:50 PM
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My personal debate between Yamaha and Marantz is over. The lack of low bass room-correction in the Yamaha is the deal breaker for me. My JL Audio E112 subs have no room correction of their own, and sound boomier than I think they should in my odd-shaped room. I'm gonna get me some real MultEQ XT32 in the form of the Marantz AV8801.

 

Thanks to Kal for pointing out this flaw in the CX-A5000. I wish the review had come out a month earlier.

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