The "Official" Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A1030, RX-A2030, RX-A3030 and CX-A5000/MX-A5000 Thread - Page 83 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2461 of 4115 Old 05-18-2014, 09:37 PM
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110 versus 165 watts, all other things being equal, will give you less than 3db increase in loudness. I'd call that barely perceptible.

Definitely better to just get an outboard amp and run it off the pre-outs.

Yamaha makes a Bluetooth dongle for this receiver, and there are many third party ones.

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post #2462 of 4115 Old 05-18-2014, 09:52 PM
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I guess by power i wasn't distinctly referring to volume, but quality of sound output as well - sorry if that wasn't clear :-) music definition to my Paradigm Studio 20's will sing with a bit more playroom im told.

My current amp is approx 5 years old and lacks a lot of networking features also, which im sure i can find a use for !
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post #2463 of 4115 Old 05-18-2014, 10:28 PM
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Yes a new receiver will have newer features including networking stuff. For $100, instead, something like a roku or Apple TV would give you even more smile.gif.

(Ok I am not familiar with what is available in your country but it's a safe statement I think.)

In terms of audio quality, I think you are unlikely to hear a difference. Spend half as much on an external amp to ADD to your existing receiver and you'll likely notice more difference. IMO.

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post #2464 of 4115 Old 05-19-2014, 02:13 AM
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I agree with Nathan.
One thing though. The 3030 has better room correction software than the 1900. That will likely give you better sound. The extra wattage is insignificant. If you add in the fact that it has the networking features you desire it may be a worthy upgrade.
Then you can buy an external amp when you move into the lounge if you still feel the need.

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post #2465 of 4115 Old 05-19-2014, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperZ View Post

Looking to upgrade from Yamaha RX-V1900 to Yamaha RX-A3030 to gain a bit more power for my bedroom setup.

Current setup
amp : Yamaha rx-v1900
Front : Paradigm Studio 60
Centre : Paradigm Signature c3
Rears : Paradigm Studio 20
Subwoofers : 2x Velodyne SPL-1200 Ultra

The main reason im waiting to upgrade is for more power for my front speakers (110w vs 165w)
The main purpose for this system is listening to music from my PC in bedroom, and playing PC games (have a very powerful PC hooked up to it)

I can get this amp brand new for $2000 (i live in new zealand so our options are limited) - is it a worthwhile upgrade?

The bedroom is quite small - ~16ft x 16ft, so i understand its quite excessive in terms of power output, however i may move this into a lounge setup in a year or two.

The other option is i stay with my current setup and add a poweramp when i move house in a few years, but its often hard to wait biggrin.gif

The only thing this amp is missing in my eyes is a bluetooth streaming option (id like to stream from my cellphone's youtube app from time to time) but understand i can get a bluetooth adaptor.

Will i hear much difference ? ive been assured it should be fairly night and day comparison

Thanks all

The power difference would be moot as you're really looking at 130W (V1900) vs. 150W (A3030).
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post #2466 of 4115 Old 05-19-2014, 02:33 AM
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Thanks for the replies all.

The room correction will be nice to tinker with for sure as the bedroom layout is far from ideal unfortunately, however if i set this up in the lounge the guy i live with will just abuse it for himself with crappy RPG playstation games. do not want! lol

jdsmoothie for pointing out my incorrect power figures.

I think it will still be a reasonable upgrade for me, as i picked the rx-v1900 up for $150USD in perfect condition (even has original manual/advertising info from when it was released!) so im sure i can flick for a profit. previously i had the rx-v1400 and upgraded purely for HDMI inputs.

is there anything worth suggesting as an alternative? my current amp seems to cut out when trying to push heavy levels of bass, perhaps just needs a de-dusting to settle temperatures? = in saying that i am running dual subs via Y splitter so not sure how that effects it, the subs are powered of course though

I will post up my findings when/if i get it.
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post #2467 of 4115 Old 05-19-2014, 02:51 AM
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Do you have all your speakers set as "small"?

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post #2468 of 4115 Old 05-19-2014, 03:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Do you have all your speakers set as "small"?

YPAO set them as Large for Front SP, Centre SP and Rear SP - is this incorrect?
LFE is set to sub only
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post #2469 of 4115 Old 05-19-2014, 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ReaperZ View Post

YPAO set them as Large for Front SP, Centre SP and Rear SP - is this incorrect?
LFE is set to sub only
Not exactly incorrect. But most people change them to small. By having them as large they are runnung full range. Therefore the receiver is still sending all the frequencies below your xover to them. Those lower frequencies take a lot of power. If you set them to small and let the subwoofers handle those lower frequencies exclusively that will free up a lot of your amplifier power for the rest of the frequency range that your speakers are handling.

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post #2470 of 4115 Old 05-19-2014, 03:30 AM
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Great piece of info - thanks !! I will change this and leave the crossover at 60hz
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post #2471 of 4115 Old 05-19-2014, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperZ View Post

Great piece of info - thanks !! I will change this and leave the crossover at 60hz
The higher the xover the more power you will free up. Those Velodynes are pretty competent. If you havent already you may want to try 80 and see what you think.

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post #2472 of 4115 Old 05-19-2014, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

The higher the xover the more power you will free up. Those Velodynes are pretty competent. If you havent already you may want to try 80 and see what you think.

i know this is off topic but ..

i spoke to my hifi specialist and he advises to leave them set as Large - simply because i really do not watch movies and use the setup purely for gaming and music and have been advised that for music listening i should use large and for gaming i should use small.. not sure how right that is.

I think im going to pick up a rx-a3030 today regardless :-) i have money burning in my pocket, and im not in a position where i can mount any more speakers to enhance the environment or hang sound traps etc.
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post #2473 of 4115 Old 05-19-2014, 03:37 PM
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There are advantages to Large depending on the situation, system and setup. But even with the 3030 you will need an external amp to continue your listening preferences.

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post #2474 of 4115 Old 05-19-2014, 04:16 PM
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Thanks, i will do more reading into large/small - ive found many threads here.
Understood regarding power - i will be looking into that in the near future.

Thank you :-)
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post #2475 of 4115 Old 05-19-2014, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperZ View Post

Thanks, i will do more reading into large/small - ive found many threads here.
Understood regarding power - i will be looking into that in the near future.

Thank you :-)

As data point, I set my main speaker sizes with my 1030, 2030, and 3030 according to the low frequency response of the speakers as I prefer to have the base emit from them when possible, rather than the subwoofer. I have various models of NHT speakers connected to these systems which aren't terribly efficient (86dB) and don't have any issues that I am aware of or have noticed driving them.

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post #2476 of 4115 Old 05-19-2014, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post

As data point, I set my main speaker sizes with my 1030, 2030, and 3030 according to the low frequency response of the speakers as I prefer to have the base emit from them when possible, rather than the subwoofer. I have various models of NHT speakers connected to these systems which aren't terribly efficient (86dB) and don't have any issues that I am aware of or have noticed driving them.
Trouble with that is you may cause cancellation issues with low base from the separate speakers
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post #2477 of 4115 Old 05-19-2014, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post

As data point, I set my main speaker sizes with my 1030, 2030, and 3030 according to the low frequency response of the speakers as I prefer to have the base emit from them when possible, rather than the subwoofer. I have various models of NHT speakers connected to these systems which aren't terribly efficient (86dB) and don't have any issues that I am aware of or have noticed driving them.
I dont understand. What is your cutoff in frequency for your decision in making a speaker large or small?
Various models doesnt mean much. How many do you have connected? What is the highest volume you usually listen at? What xover do you use? These are all questions that need to be answered for your data point to be helpful.

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post #2478 of 4115 Old 05-19-2014, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post

Even xt32 doesn't eq the subwoofer flat. Far from it.

What is your basis for the comment "far from it?"

Having owned both Yamaha products, including the A3030, and XT32 units from both Denon and Onkyo , it's was readily apparent to me that the XT32 solution in regards to the sub output was superior in both response and integration.... Not until I added an Antimode was I satisfied with the A3030 with my sub knowing how it had sounded with other AVRs.

Just my .02.

But I question your assertion that XT 32 doesn't strive for a smooth flat sub response.
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post #2479 of 4115 Old 05-19-2014, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperZ View Post

Thanks, i will do more reading into large/small - ive found many threads here.
Understood regarding power - i will be looking into that in the near future.

Thank you :-)

We are way off topic here, but your situation is becoming very clear. Speakers set to large is almost never optimum.

'Bass management' is your friend -- both from an overall output and from an accuracy standpoint. This is especially true since you have two subs (running in mono, as they should, on a splitter) that are very capable. If you set the crossover to 80hz on all speakers, setting all speaker to "small", you will not run out of power in your system (until long after your ears are being damaged) and you will not need to replace your receiver -- for power.

You may still want newer features, which would be on topic here, but we can solve your power problem very easily by setting your speakers to "small". Your system will definitely play louder at all frequencies once you do this, and with less distortion.

Off topic, so I'll recommend you use a new topic, but here is a good overview:

http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup/bass-management-basics-2013-settings-made-simple

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post #2480 of 4115 Old 05-20-2014, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

What is your basis for the comment "far from it?"

Having owned both Yamaha products, including the A3030, and XT32 units from both Denon and Onkyo , it's was readily apparent to me that the XT32 solution in regards to the sub output was superior in both response and integration.... Not until I added an Antimode was I satisfied with the A3030 with my sub knowing how it had sounded with other AVRs.

But I question your assertion that XT 32 doesn't strive for a smooth flat sub response.
Audyssey xt32 strives for a smooth/flat sub eq but doesn't accomplish the feat. My opinion is based on using rew on a denon 4311 and then searching all over the rew, audyssey and receiver forums for other room correction software on/off rew graphs. I have about 10 xt32 graphs I can attach as evidence. XT32 does bass eq way better than ypao. I measured that too. So did Stereophile magazine on the A5000. Their A5000 had the exact same results as my midlevel 773. Even the auto filters were identical. Far from smooth or flat with no filtering below 31hz.

XT32 will eq flatter down to 17 or 18hz. And will improve the amplitude spread to +/- 2.5db below 80hz. But almost never better than that. Adding a minidsp to xt32 can get bass notes down to +/- 0.5db spread. Impressive. Ypao with rew and manual subwoofer/main filters (2030 and above) can get smoother than xt32 except below 30hz range. I have never said ypao by itself is better than xt32.
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post #2481 of 4115 Old 05-20-2014, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperZ View Post

Thanks, i will do more reading into large/small - ive found many threads here.
If you buy the 3030 you can eq each subwoofer separate. Your towers only output down to 45hz. Don't send deep bass to them. Crossover the front towers at 60hz and the other speakers at 80hz with all speakers set to small. And set/arrange the subwoofers as left/right stereo instead of mono. This is the ultimate setup for stereo quality music. For games/movies good enough. There are 4 subwoofer filters to fine tune the bass output to your liking.
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post #2482 of 4115 Old 05-20-2014, 01:30 AM
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I didnt think the version of YPAO in the 773 did any eq of the sub.

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post #2483 of 4115 Old 05-20-2014, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

I didnt think the version of YPAO in the 773 did any eq of the sub.
That was a fast reply for the middle of the night. lol
A whole lot of people were spreading misinformation so I measured it myself with a Dayton usb mic. The 773 uses the exact same filters in the auto eq as the manual eq. 31hz, 40hz etc. and does very little subwoofer eq. I'm pretty sure every model above it has the exact same ypao. Weak compared to xt32. Almost as good if not better than xt. The stereophile review of the a5000 had the same ypao results as my 773.

My measurement of the 773 bass frequencies. Clearly some eq.
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post #2484 of 4115 Old 05-20-2014, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

We are way off topic here, but your situation is becoming very clear. Speakers set to large is almost never optimum.

'Bass management' is your friend -- both from an overall output and from an accuracy standpoint. This is especially true since you have two subs (running in mono, as they should, on a splitter) that are very capable. If you set the crossover to 80hz on all speakers, setting all speaker to "small", you will not run out of power in your system (until long after your ears are being damaged) and you will not need to replace your receiver -- for power.

You may still want newer features, which would be on topic here, but we can solve your power problem very easily by setting your speakers to "small". Your system will definitely play louder at all frequencies once you do this, and with less distortion.

Off topic, so I'll recommend you use a new topic, but here is a good overview:

http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup/bass-management-basics-2013-settings-made-simple

Thanks :-) will do some reading !!!!

crossover set to 80, speakers set to small and you are right, what a difference !

However, i bought the Yamaha RX-A3030 today with Yamaha bluetooth adapter. whether its just perception or excitement of a new toy but the bass is definitely a lot tightly controlled with the new amp. In saying that i have only tuned from the YPAO and havent done any tuning with the subwoofer mics (is there a need? or can i trust the YPAO) .. however it did set the bass to -10 which i found a bit odd, have raised this to an acceptable level and will switch around between 0 and ~+2) , and this is just with a single Velodyne SPL-1200 so far (need to reclaim the other from the friend i live with!

the OSD compared to the Yamaha rx-v1900 is a million leagues ahead, the unit looks beautiful on my desk and setup was a breeze

First impressions = money well spent. However i do like to upgrade every few years regardless, what can i say im a tech junkie
Quote:
Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post

If you buy the 3030 you can eq each subwoofer separate. Your towers only output down to 45hz. Don't send deep bass to them. Crossover the front towers at 60hz and the other speakers at 80hz with all speakers set to small. And set/arrange the subwoofers as left/right stereo instead of mono. This is the ultimate setup for stereo quality music. For games/movies good enough. There are 4 subwoofer filters to fine tune the bass output to your liking.

Thanks for the info smile.gif ! I'll adjust the crossovers - im guessing this means i need to set the physical crossover on the sub at 80hz?

as its setup in a bedroom and limited space, ill place the subwoofers either side of the centre speaker i think
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post #2485 of 4115 Old 05-20-2014, 03:00 AM
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Here are some other ypao room eq wizard results. This one is an A3000 receiver.

The purple line is slightly better in several spots. Not much. +/- 8.5db spread below 80hz with ypao on. Without ypao +/- 10db. The manual filters are needed. The subwoofer amp is obviously turned up too high here. That doesn't change the shape of curve.

Here is an A1000.

I am not even sure which line is ypao on. Both pretty bad in the bass region. Sorry folks. All ypao does a lousy job of bass area auto eq. My subwoofer is big and expensive but measures pretty flat down to 19hz without eq so ypao doesn't hurt me much. Probably going to add a $105 minidsp for better subwoofer eq.

For comparison a slightly better than typical audyssey xt32 eq. Again it extends bass fairly flat down to 17hz. +/- 2db below 80hz and +/- 5db overall. Boosts the high frequencies for a brighter sound. There is very little difference in shape of audyssey reference and flat(my measurements). Both brighter than ypao natural eq.
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post #2486 of 4115 Old 05-20-2014, 03:12 AM
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Reaper. Assuming your subwoofer amps have a variable crossover set it to the highest number and let the receiver control that. If it has xover bypass use that. Then leave most speakers at 80hz xover. The front left/right use either 60 or 80hz. Whatever sounds best. Your dual subwoofer setup is fine. Don't select front/rear subwoofer mode. Try dual mono and left/right subwoofer mode. Pretty sure music will sound best in stereo subwoofer mode.

If the receiver sets subwoofer at -10 the subwoofer amp is turned up too high. Turn them down a little and rerun ypao until they get closer to zero. That will give you proper up/down sub volume adjustment later.
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post #2487 of 4115 Old 05-20-2014, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post

Reaper. Assuming your subwoofer amps have a variable crossover set it to the highest number and let the receiver control that. If it has xover bypass use that. Then leave most speakers at 80hz xover. The front left/right use either 60 or 80hz. Whatever sounds best. Your dual subwoofer setup is fine. Don't select front/rear subwoofer mode. Try dual mono and left/right subwoofer mode. Pretty sure music will sound best in stereo subwoofer mode.

If the receiver sets subwoofer at -10 the subwoofer amp is turned up too high. Turn them down a little and rerun ypao until they get closer to zero. That will give you proper up/down sub volume adjustment later.

Thanks - the subwoofer was set at 20/80 for output and i tried to retune with it set at 10/80 and YPAO still set it at -10 .. it emmited like a half second pulse for the sub level test so perhaps its not testing properly? i always found my yamaha rx-v1900 would set the bass outpuit stupidly low via YPAO, and yes i am using the new mic smile.gif
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post #2488 of 4115 Old 05-20-2014, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ReaperZ View Post

Thanks - the subwoofer was set at 20/80 for output and i tried to retune with it set at 10/80 and YPAO still set it at -10 .. it emmited like a half second pulse for the sub level test so perhaps its not testing properly? i always found my yamaha rx-v1900 would set the bass outpuit stupidly low via YPAO, and yes i am using the new mic smile.gif
Setting the subwoofer amp level with ypao is tricky. Xt32 puts out a test tone and instructs user to adjust to 75db. When I swapped out xt32 and put ypao in the Yamaha set my subwoofer at zero so they match up. Try to set it low now and get to -5 at least and turn it back up after the mic is disconnected. And don't trust auto eq. Copy the natural or flat curve to manual and use test tones with a meter etc. to find frequencies that need the manual tweaking. Subwoofer has 4 sub filters to smooth it out. The other channels have 7 filters for above the crossover level. The manual barely covers this stuff.
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post #2489 of 4115 Old 05-20-2014, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post

If you buy the 3030 you can eq each subwoofer separate. Your towers only output down to 45hz. Don't send deep bass to them. Crossover the front towers at 60hz and the other speakers at 80hz with all speakers set to small. And set/arrange the subwoofers as left/right stereo instead of mono. This is the ultimate setup for stereo quality music. For games/movies good enough. There are 4 subwoofer filters to fine tune the bass output to your liking.

YMMV. The biggest benefit in my room is to run the subs in mono, and use them to cancel out room mode interactions to a great extent -- prior to any EQ. Then there is much less for the EQ to work with. Music sounds markedly better in this manner in my setup. (Dual Rythmik subs, Triad LCR speakers.)

Other rooms may benefit from a different approach.

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post #2490 of 4115 Old 05-20-2014, 10:12 AM
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I apologize if this has been answered in this thread, but I didn't see it when glancing through.

I currently have an Onyo 3009 (my fifth or sixth consecutive receiver from them) and have been looking at upgrading. I currently am very happy with XT32, but feel like I'm still missing something. It seems to be the consensus that XT32 is better for subs, but I am running a mini DSP 4x10 so this isn't really a big deal to me (and I personally am not that impressed with sub eq anyways).

Those of you who have compared XT32 to YPAO, how do you feel it does with your speakers? I am running 9.1 with a SEOS/TD15m/BMS4550 design. I'd like to maximize their strengths as much as possible. I'm also interested in how well it applies wide and height speakers, as I feel the Onkyo blends them in seamlessly.

Thanks

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