The "Official" Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A1030, RX-A2030, RX-A3030 and CX-A5000/MX-A5000 Thread - Page 85 - AVS Forum
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post #2521 of 3111 Old 05-30-2014, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post

Better bass or louder bass? You can turn any ypao eq off but by running the mic setup the receiver now knows how many speakers are connected and the proper db level. you are trying to outsmart the design. Write down your distance, speaker level, crossover setting and any internal eq used before running ypao. Ypao doesn't eq much anyway. But it should set the other stuff decent. Manually set speakers to small because it will set most as large. Just like every other brand. If you don't like what it did just restore your old settings. The receiver has manual digital peq independent of ypao on every channel.

Both better and louder. Deeper, more shaking, and louder.
I set all my distances using tape measurer; my levels via SPL meter, and I don't use any EQ or tone control (bypassed). I set all my speakers to small and cross over either at 80 or 90 depending on which sounds better with what ever unit I'm using.
I specify in the setup which speakers I'm using as well. So the auto feature isn't of much use to me. But I'll give it a go. Just wish I knew whether it would over write my current settings or if there is a way to have the YPAO settings stored in a different location so I can switch between my manual settings the YPAO settings for comparison.
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post #2522 of 3111 Old 05-31-2014, 12:05 AM
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By current settings if you mean distance and speaker level yes ypao will overwrite that. Probably crossover and large/small too. The setup routine doesn't just establish an eq pattern. If you are happy with it now probably best to just leave it alone at this point.
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post #2523 of 3111 Old 05-31-2014, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tidan View Post

Both better and louder. Deeper, more shaking, and louder.
I set all my distances using tape measurer; my levels via SPL meter, and I don't use any EQ or tone control (bypassed). I set all my speakers to small and cross over either at 80 or 90 depending on which sounds better with what ever unit I'm using.
I specify in the setup which speakers I'm using as well. So the auto feature isn't of much use to me. But I'll give it a go. Just wish I knew whether it would over write my current settings or if there is a way to have the YPAO settings stored in a different location so I can switch between my manual settings the YPAO settings for comparison.

You can run ypao under pattern 2 in the manual setup and adjust it to have the crossover and levels you want. Then you can flip back and forth between the setting you have now (pattern 1) and the ypao setting (pattern). Easy and quick way to compare your manual settings vs ypao.
BTW, I did the y-splitter with my dual sub's earlier this week. I also like it better.

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post #2524 of 3111 Old 05-31-2014, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by jcwhammie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tidan View Post

Both better and louder. Deeper, more shaking, and louder.
I set all my distances using tape measurer; my levels via SPL meter, and I don't use any EQ or tone control (bypassed). I set all my speakers to small and cross over either at 80 or 90 depending on which sounds better with what ever unit I'm using.
I specify in the setup which speakers I'm using as well. So the auto feature isn't of much use to me. But I'll give it a go. Just wish I knew whether it would over write my current settings or if there is a way to have the YPAO settings stored in a different location so I can switch between my manual settings the YPAO settings for comparison.

You can run ypao under pattern 2 in the manual setup and adjust it to have the crossover and levels you want. Then you can flip back and forth between the setting you have now (pattern 1) and the ypao setting (pattern). Easy and quick way to compare your manual settings vs ypao.
BTW, I did the y-splitter with my dual sub's earlier this week. I also like it better.

Does YPAO give you the option to select the pattern or is it something I need to select prior to running YPAO?

Not sure why running the Y-splitter sounds better, but it certainly does on my system too!
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post #2525 of 3111 Old 06-01-2014, 12:21 AM
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Using the Y-connector helps things because the big advantage of two subs (or more) is that they can interact in a way to reduce the overall variation of the bass frequencies -- IF they are run in mono (ie, using a Y connector).

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post #2526 of 3111 Old 06-01-2014, 04:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

Using the Y-connector helps things because the big advantage of two subs (or more) is that they can interact in a way to reduce the overall variation of the bass frequencies -- IF they are run in mono (ie, using a Y connector).
Depending on the model both subs are getting the exact same signal (mono) regardless of whether you use a splitter or not. Just because you have 2 preouts doesnt mean theyre stereo.

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post #2527 of 3111 Old 06-01-2014, 06:38 AM
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Could those having problems with their subs be having a problem with their subs phase setting?

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post #2528 of 3111 Old 06-01-2014, 11:26 AM
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Over at the Home Theater Shack, they reviewed then 3020 and discovered that using both sub inputs distorts the bass, and, you guessed it, the recommended solution was to use a Y adapter with 2 subs. Somehow, the Yamaha engineers dropped the ball on this one.
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post #2529 of 3111 Old 06-01-2014, 06:37 PM
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So I have had my Aventage A1030 for a month now and I have to agree with what a lot of owners have said about the sub pre out levels and it seems to be much lower than I have heard in other brands. I have to set my sub volume to 3 o'clock, sub trim to +5.0 and receiver db level to -2.5 just to get what I feel is suitable bass response from my PB2000. Comments would be appreciated.
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post #2530 of 3111 Old 06-01-2014, 07:54 PM
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The sub preout level is not as high as some other brands (or older models of Yamaha receiver) but it doesn't matter. Part of the normal calibration process is to set your sub volume and level trim to the required values.
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post #2531 of 3111 Old 06-01-2014, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

Using the Y-connector helps things because the big advantage of two subs (or more) is that they can interact in a way to reduce the overall variation of the bass frequencies -- IF they are run in mono (ie, using a Y connector).

Yes, but the 2030 has a setting where you can select Mono x 2 which theoretically should send the same signal to both subs. Yet running the Y-splitter sill sounds better and louder. ?!?
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post #2532 of 3111 Old 06-01-2014, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by tidan View Post

Yes, but the 2030 has a setting where you can select Mono x 2 which theoretically should send the same signal to both subs. Yet running the Y-splitter sill sounds better and louder. ?!?

Key word being "theoretically" since your simple test of using a y-splitter demonstrates that 'monox2' is not simply sending precisely the same signal to the two outputs. (This assumes there is a measurable difference, and not just an expectation bias resulting in a subjective impression of a difference.)
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post #2533 of 3111 Old 06-01-2014, 10:04 PM
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ive discovered that using both the sub outputs to my pair of Velodyne SPL-1200 Ultras .. running two subs seems considerably less punchy than just one ! should i use Y splitter as mentioned above to get the best bass response?

What a weird design

in saying that, i might need to play with phase settings
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post #2534 of 3111 Old 06-02-2014, 04:44 AM
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Based on the experience of others, I would say a Y adapter is the way to go. Even with dual (or more) subs, it is still a mono signal, so as long as the distance between your listening area and both subs is the same, you can get good results running them with the Y adapter. I've not heard of anyone who is happy with the results of running them separately through both sub per outs...
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post #2535 of 3111 Old 06-02-2014, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ReaperZ View Post

ive discovered that using both the sub outputs to my pair of Velodyne SPL-1200 Ultras .. running two subs seems considerably less punchy than just one ! should i use Y splitter as mentioned above to get the best bass response?

If "less punchy" just means the subs are not playing as loud, then there's nothing wrong. Any time you change the way you connect the sub(s) you should recalibrate, and that will restore the volume.

If the receiver is playing the same thing on both sub outputs (which it always does for the 1030, and for the higher models it's an option in the settings), then the volume should be the only difference. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if the output level is different using one connection method over the other.
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post #2536 of 3111 Old 06-02-2014, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by healthnut View Post

Based on the experience of others, I would say a Y adapter is the way to go. Even with dual (or more) subs, it is still a mono signal, so as long as the distance between your listening area and both subs is the same, you can get good results running them with the Y adapter. I've not heard of anyone who is happy with the results of running them separately through both sub per outs...
I had 2 subs hooked up separately with my 675 and was happy with it.
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post #2537 of 3111 Old 06-02-2014, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

If "less punchy" just means the subs are not playing as loud, then there's nothing wrong. Any time you change the way you connect the sub(s) you should recalibrate, and that will restore the volume.

If the receiver is playing the same thing on both sub outputs (which it always does for the 1030, and for the higher models it's an option in the settings), then the volume should be the only difference. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if the output level is different using one connection method over the other.

"Less punchy" can also be "more flat" which is, of course, desirable and often the result of having two subs well placed in a room. I would call that "less boomy" but many people call that "less punchy".

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Got a link?

Good question. Especially since it's hard to imagine many scenarios where someone is using the sub INPUT (as the OP specifies) on their receiver. OUTPUT? Yes, but INPUT? Rare.

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post #2538 of 3111 Old 06-02-2014, 07:32 AM
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Here is the link:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/av-receivers-preamps-processors-amplifier-reviews/67906-yamaha-aventage-rx-a3020-receiver-review.html

This is what he had to say:

Unfortunately, YPAO misses on equalizing multiple subs. I was truly shocked that Yamaha did not get this right. YPAO measures the subs separately for distance and levels (which it should), but it also measures the subs separately for equalization. Unless you are one of the very lucky exceptions that has a room with subs situated just right, it will be nearly impossible to equalize subs independently and then combine their equalized responses to result in a flat response. I have tried on fifty-eleven occasions, numerous different subs, numerous different multiple sub locations… and I cannot make it happen. YPAO should instead get the distance and levels between the two subs set, then measure all subs together to determine the filters needed for equalization, which is what Audyssey does… and it works. I thought maybe the SWFR Layout selection of ‘Monaural x2’ would combine the channels, but no such luck. Graph 5 above shows what happens when you flub the dub as Yamaha has done. I got the subs all nice and equalized using several parametric filters (with all subs combined) and rerun YPAO, which in turn messes up the response.
My suggestion if you have multiple subs and they are equal distance from the main listening position, is to use only one sub output on the 3020 and split them to your amps (or parametric EQ). This way the 3020 will be equalizing the combined response of all subs in your system. If the two subs are not the same distance from the main listening position, you could use something like the miniDSP 4x10, which would allow you to set the distance/delay of each sub... and it provides a parametric EQ as well. If you have large peaks, it is always good to try to eliminate those prior to running the auto-eq.
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post #2539 of 3111 Old 06-02-2014, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Here is the link:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/av-receivers-preamps-processors-amplifier-reviews/67906-yamaha-aventage-rx-a3020-receiver-review.html

This is what he had to say:

Unfortunately, YPAO misses on equalizing multiple subs. I was truly shocked that Yamaha did not get this right. YPAO measures the subs separately for distance and levels (which it should), but it also measures the subs separately for equalization. Unless you are one of the very lucky exceptions that has a room with subs situated just right, it will be nearly impossible to equalize subs independently and then combine their equalized responses to result in a flat response. I have tried on fifty-eleven occasions, numerous different subs, numerous different multiple sub locations… and I cannot make it happen. YPAO should instead get the distance and levels between the two subs set, then measure all subs together to determine the filters needed for equalization, which is what Audyssey does… and it works. I thought maybe the SWFR Layout selection of ‘Monaural x2’ would combine the channels, but no such luck. Graph 5 above shows what happens when you flub the dub as Yamaha has done. I got the subs all nice and equalized using several parametric filters (with all subs combined) and rerun YPAO, which in turn messes up the response.
My suggestion if you have multiple subs and they are equal distance from the main listening position, is to use only one sub output on the 3020 and split them to your amps (or parametric EQ). This way the 3020 will be equalizing the combined response of all subs in your system. If the two subs are not the same distance from the main listening position, you could use something like the miniDSP 4x10, which would allow you to set the distance/delay of each sub... and it provides a parametric EQ as well. If you have large peaks, it is always good to try to eliminate those prior to running the auto-eq.

Bingo!

Thanks for posting. This (also?) explains why monox2 is not really the way to go. Which is a shame, because it would be nice to have distance and level adjustable per sub on the receiver. As it is, using phase and gain on the subs, one can do that. But it's more work smile.gif

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post #2540 of 3111 Old 06-02-2014, 08:22 AM
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He also stated this:

The 3020 accommodates a dual subwoofer setup, and as I was setting the speaker configuration I noticed there is a ‘SWFR Layout’ option that allows me to select ‘Left + Right’, ‘Front + Rear’ (which I selected) and ‘Monaural x2’. I ultimately tried YPAO for each selection and could not determine any benefit to being able to select a layout, the measurement results yielded the same regardless of the choice.

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post #2541 of 3111 Old 06-02-2014, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Here is the link:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/av-receivers-preamps-processors-amplifier-reviews/67906-yamaha-aventage-rx-a3020-receiver-review.html

This is what he had to say:

Unfortunately, YPAO misses on equalizing multiple subs. I was truly shocked that Yamaha did not get this right. YPAO measures the subs separately for distance and levels (which it should), but it also measures the subs separately for equalization. Unless you are one of the very lucky exceptions that has a room with subs situated just right, it will be nearly impossible to equalize subs independently and then combine their equalized responses to result in a flat response. I have tried on fifty-eleven occasions, numerous different subs, numerous different multiple sub locations… and I cannot make it happen. YPAO should instead get the distance and levels between the two subs set, then measure all subs together to determine the filters needed for equalization, which is what Audyssey does… and it works. I thought maybe the SWFR Layout selection of ‘Monaural x2’ would combine the channels, but no such luck. Graph 5 above shows what happens when you flub the dub as Yamaha has done. I got the subs all nice and equalized using several parametric filters (with all subs combined) and rerun YPAO, which in turn messes up the response.
My suggestion if you have multiple subs and they are equal distance from the main listening position, is to use only one sub output on the 3020 and split them to your amps (or parametric EQ). This way the 3020 will be equalizing the combined response of all subs in your system. If the two subs are not the same distance from the main listening position, you could use something like the miniDSP 4x10, which would allow you to set the distance/delay of each sub... and it provides a parametric EQ as well. If you have large peaks, it is always good to try to eliminate those prior to running the auto-eq.

But how does this apply to those of us that don't use YPAO, but instead set up our systems manually?
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post #2542 of 3111 Old 06-02-2014, 12:17 PM
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But how does this apply to those of us that don't use YPAO, but instead set up our systems manually?
If you have the equipment, knowledge and time to setup your system manually with no use of YPAO then youre way ahead of most people. I doubt theres anything I could tell you that you dont already know. In fact I would expect you to be answering questions instead of asking any.
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post #2543 of 3111 Old 06-02-2014, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
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But how does this apply to those of us that don't use YPAO, but instead set up our systems manually?
If you have the equipment, knowledge and time to setup your system manually with no use of YPAO then youre way ahead of most people. I doubt theres anything I could tell you that you dont already know. In fact I would expect you to be answering questions instead of asking any.

Haha, yes I'm quite competent at setting up my system and have a relatively decent understanding of sound/audio. But what I'm not clear on is why running the 2030's dual sub outs results in lower output and less deep sounding bass, while using just one of the outputs run through a y-splitter to both subs sounds superior with much higher output even though I'm NOT using YPAO?!
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post #2544 of 3111 Old 06-02-2014, 01:05 PM
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Time to take measurements to see exactly what happens with each configuration.
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post #2545 of 3111 Old 06-02-2014, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tidan View Post

Haha, yes I'm quite competent at setting up my system and have a relatively decent understanding of sound/audio. But what I'm not clear on is why running the 2030's dual sub outs results in lower output and less deep sounding bass, while using just one of the outputs run through a y-splitter to both subs sounds superior with much higher output even though I'm NOT using YPAO?!
If youre using the same subs in the same place the only way that makes any sense to me to get more output is because youre using more volume.
If you have the right equipment and know how to use it it should be easy to determine whats going on. What test have you done to determine that you get much higher output when using a splitter?

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post #2546 of 3111 Old 06-02-2014, 03:25 PM
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Time to take measurements to see exactly what happens with each configuration.
+1 I'm sure we'd all like to see the results.

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post #2547 of 3111 Old 06-02-2014, 08:03 PM
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This dual sub discussion is very interesting. I added a second SB Ultra13 to my 5000. I didn't notice much of a difference in bass response in my 14x20 room. I have one sub in the front left corner (13 feet from listening position) and one in the right rear corner (5 feet from listening position). They are configured as front/ rear on the 5000. Both subs gains are up to -5, which is almost all the way up (per SVS). Ypao still set both subs to +2. If I wanted to level match them to the rest of the speakers with my RadioShack Spl, I'd have to increase the level to +10 on the left front sub, and +3 on the rear. That just seems way to high. Any 5000 owners experiencing any similar issues, or trying the y splitter?
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post #2548 of 3111 Old 06-03-2014, 02:59 AM
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post #2549 of 3111 Old 06-03-2014, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Civik99si View Post

This dual sub discussion is very interesting. I added a second SB Ultra13 to my 5000. I didn't notice much of a difference in bass response in my 14x20 room. I have one sub in the front left corner (13 feet from listening position) and one in the right rear corner (5 feet from listening position). They are configured as front/ rear on the 5000. Both subs gains are up to -5, which is almost all the way up (per SVS). Ypao still set both subs to +2. If I wanted to level match them to the rest of the speakers with my RadioShack Spl, I'd have to increase the level to +10 on the left front sub, and +3 on the rear. That just seems way to high. Any 5000 owners experiencing any similar issues, or trying the y splitter?

In my situation...

Dual Martin Logan Depth i's, equal distance left and right from the center next to my mains. I am using both sub outs on the A5000 configured as dual mono. Volume on sub is set to 50% (5.5 in my case). YPAO set the volume on my subs to 0 and +.5 each.

I have played with and tweaked SBWFR Volume Trim (input trim) in the options settings to acquire the bass output desired and I am getting plenty of bass. Enough to shake/rattle the LED high hats in my ceiling type of bass. So much so that I had to get the ladder out the other day make sure a couple of the lights were seated properly and remove the rattle.

Using a Radio Shack SPL, my subs measure a couple of db's higher than the rest of my speakers which are set to 75db at reference volume (after a little tweaking) because I like it that way. wink.gif YPAO did a pretty good job with the measurements in my case.

I am one that is having no problem using dual outs and I still have plenty of room to turn up the subs another 5.5 on their volume controls and another 11+ db on the sub level output from the A5000 which I would be insane to do.

Weird.

Speakers: Martin Logan Montis, EM C2, Dual Depth I Subs, JBL S38 surround (upgrading soon) | Processor: Yamaha CX-A5000 | Amp: Sunfire TGA-5400 | Sources: DirecTV HR34, HTPC, Mac Mini, Oppo BDP-103, PS4, PS3, Xbox One, Wii U | Television: Panasonic 65VT50 | Remote: Logitech Harmony Ultimate
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post #2550 of 3111 Old 06-03-2014, 06:31 AM
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Maybe a silly question.I own CXA5000 for 2 months but I don't know how to setup all parameters from front OSD without ON SCREEN menu.The bass response is still weak,I can't figure why,after I raise the vol.,sw trim.smile.gif
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