Make a difference? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 14 Old 06-23-2013, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
snydly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I built a home theater and have a JVC U56 with a Studiotek G130, and an Onkly 5008 AV with a Klipsh R 83 speaker system. I added to more rear surround speakers for 7.1. I recently had someone tell me that adding another amp for my mains and center would result in a noticable difference in sound. He recommended a Emotiva amp....any thoughts?
snydly is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 14 Old 06-23-2013, 07:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
oztech's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 7,660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by snydly View Post

I built a home theater and have a JVC U56 with a Studiotek G130, and an Onkly 5008 AV with a Klipsh R 83 speaker system. I added to more rear surround speakers for 7.1. I recently had someone tell me that adding another amp for my mains and center would result in a noticable difference in sound. He recommended a Emotiva amp....any thoughts?
That depends on how big the room is and how loud db wise you play at your seated position .
A lot of times the amps in the flagships perform just fine and people get disappointed when they can't hear a difference see if you can borrow an amp that way you would know without being out any money.
Do you feel something is lacking sound wise right now?
What sub are you using?
oztech is offline  
post #3 of 14 Old 06-23-2013, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
snydly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The sub is a Klipsch RT-12d with the R-64 Center, R83 mains, and RS-62 surrounds. I added a set of R 5650's to the back and a set into the ceiling. My amp is the Onkly 5008. My room is 12'6 x 21 ft. and since its a ranch stlye 70's house, the basement ceiling is 7' 8" high. I have 6 seats (3 on floor-3 on riser and I have bass traps and diffusers. Although I would like it to sound good, I also have hearing loss (live music) and wouldn't mind adding to the system and I would
like to be able to really percieve the difference.
snydly is offline  
post #4 of 14 Old 06-23-2013, 08:24 AM
AVS Special Member
 
oztech's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 7,660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by snydly View Post

The sub is a Klipsch RT-12d with the R-64 Center, R83 mains, and RS-62 surrounds. I added a set of R 5650's to the back and a set into the ceiling. My amp is the Onkly 5008. My room is 12'6 x 21 ft. and since its a ranch stlye 70's house, the basement ceiling is 7' 8" high. I have 6 seats (3 on floor-3 on riser and I have bass traps and diffusers. Although I would like it to sound good, I also have hearing loss (live music) and wouldn't mind adding to the system and I would
like to be able to really percieve the difference.
This is just my opinion but those speakers are really efficient and that sub will not fill the room I would either think about adding another of the same model or upgrade to a better unit .
I don't know what you have your speakers set at but setting them to small and crossing them over at 70 to 80Hz will free up some additional headroom while tightening up the mid bass.
Also speaker placement will have a direct impact on sound moving them away from the nearest walls at least by a foot and a half will always help and angling the tweeter towards your ears from the seating posistion if possible from each speaker will help with clarity.
oztech is offline  
post #5 of 14 Old 06-23-2013, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
snydly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks, I had my projector calibrated but could'nt get the speakers done (right now, they are set up per Onkyo's Audyssey multieq xt32. I have the mains mirrored in 1 1/2 ft. from the sides and two from the screen wall. It's kind of tight....but that's what it is. Any way I can squeeze more efficiency from the system is a good thing.
snydly is offline  
post #6 of 14 Old 06-23-2013, 08:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
oztech's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 7,660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by snydly View Post

Thanks, I had my projector calibrated but could'nt get the speakers done (right now, they are set up per Onkyo's Audyssey multieq xt32. I have the mains mirrored in 1 1/2 ft. from the sides and two from the screen wall. It's kind of tight....but that's what it is. Any way I can squeeze more efficiency from the system is a good thing.
I think you would hear a big difference taking the money and adding either another sub or a bigger one from HSU or SVS than adding an amp but that is just my experience and opinion.
oztech is offline  
post #7 of 14 Old 06-24-2013, 12:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
derrickdj1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,477
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Liked: 146
I have a Klipsch RF 7 based system and have external amps. I agree with the above post that speakers set to small that an amp will not have has big of an impact has an additional sub. I have sold off one of my amps since my Pioneer SC 35 is capable of driving my speakers. I still use an amp on the RF 7's and RC 64 which may be overkill. If you want to run your RF 83's as large then an amp will help with the LF demands on the system. A good sub will handle the LF demands of the system much better than even large towers. Even at Reference level, the RF 7's never exceed around 50 watts with the small setting in my system in a greater than 6500 cuft. space.

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus 200 Five, Dayton 18 Ultimxa Dual Sub Cab(2), Dayton 18 Ultimax Large Vented Sub Cab (2), on Berhinger I Nuke DPS amps, Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

Yaquin VK 2100 amp, McIntosh XR 5 speakers, Samsung BDP F 7500
derrickdj1 is offline  
post #8 of 14 Old 07-05-2013, 01:32 PM
Advanced Member
 
etc6849's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Irmo, SC
Posts: 622
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 63
I have a similar system to yours I bought to replace my college stereo system: RF-83, RC-64, RS-62 sides. I got a great deal on them as they were being discontinued. I eventually bought a RT-12d sub when they were closed out too. It's a great sub! However, I had nodal issues with my room, but just didn't know it (read on)...

I tried placing the RT-12d several places, then on a whim bought a second RT-12d off fleabay as I got an OK price. What a difference! I can promise you'll get a 100% improvement if you buy another RT-12d. It's a great sounding sub and two of them sound freaking awesome. I would think about adding a second RT-12d sub to your system.

As for the adding an amp, I recently added an ATI 2007 amp to my Onkyo TX-NR905 receiver. I can hear more detail with the amp. Unlike most Klipsch speakers, the RF-83's will require a lot of power to drive properly. Just look at the massive magnets on the 3 8" drivers if you don't believe me. You should have an amp that can handle the voltage dips and will notice a difference, but the sub made the most difference in my system.

When you pick your amp, seriously consider the ATI 2007. I paid $1899 direct from ATI (classicaudioparts.com). The amp is built in the US and weighs 100lbs. I'd put it against the other so called "value" amps (like the Emotiva Chinese made stuff) and against any high-end amp as ATI makes a lot of those brands too! Most amps are rated with only one channel driven, this thing is rated with all 7 being driven. I'd still recommend getting the ATI amp as I noticed a difference when I added it too, but if I had to choose I would get the second RT-12d.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
, a FREE home automation program. Open-source Z-Wave Premise Module found
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
etc6849 is offline  
post #9 of 14 Old 07-06-2013, 11:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
braveheart123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lone Wolf McQuade from Islamabad Pakistan
Posts: 1,820
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 116
Quote:
I built a home theater and have a JVC U56 with a Studiotek G130, and an Onkly 5008 AV with a Klipsh R 83 speaker system. I added to more rear surround speakers for 7.1. I recently had someone tell me that adding another amp for my mains and center would result in a noticable difference in sound. He recommended a Emotiva amp....any thoughts?

If you wish to run your mains and/or CC and surrounds as large or wish crossing them way low i.e. lower than 60Hz, yes adding an amp will lift the curtain from those speakers. But there is no need of an external amp if you cross them at 80Hz or above and considering Klipsch are absurdly efficient speakers, shed your cash on quality sub instead.

When properly set up both in time and frequency domains, the subs alone can make a day/night difference. Forget about wasting cash on external amps, invest in a quality sub.

If your AVR, in 5.1 or greater configuration, is not thermally shutting down, distorting, or clipping at your loudest reference volume with whatever speaker load (2/4/6/8 ohms) and sensitivity, you will not hear any difference in sound by adding external amp.

For an HT setup, just set your speakers to small with 80Hz or above XO, add at least two quality subs, and let your system knock the walls down.

History is written by those who have hanged heroes ...

The best EQ is no EQ ...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Main System: Klipsch RF-82 II, Klipsch RC-62 II, RS-52 II, Onkyo 5010, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S300
braveheart123 is online now  
post #10 of 14 Old 07-06-2013, 12:51 PM
Advanced Member
 
etc6849's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Irmo, SC
Posts: 622
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 63
You can hear a difference even with your receiver set to 80Hz for the mains versus having a really nice external amp and setting the mains to 60Hz. Sure this setting helps a lot and should be what you use if you have only an AVR.

However...
It maybe due to the high slew rate of the ATI AT2007 (double that of most AVRs), but things are just slightly clearer in the mid and high ranges. My wife could even hear the difference in sounds like car doors closing, rain drops, etc. Of course, drums sound more detailed too, but that's mostly lower frequency. Slew rate is important in buying any amplifier.

Lets not also forget that an AVR will clip at a lot lower voltage than a nice amp too and most AVRs have power supply limitations. If the AVR's crossover circuit is before its internal amp though, the clipping may be alleviated, and obviously using a high crossover setting takes a lot of work off the AVR's power supply.

Don't get me wrong, my system sounded great before getting the amp. Unless you can get an ATI 2000 series or Outlaw 7700 series amp for a steal, I'd say it's not worth it. I just happen to get a pretty good deal on the AT2007, so I bought one.

Further...
The only efficient thing about the RF-83's are the tweeter (IMHO). I actually called Klipsch before buying the AT2007, and their lead tech said due to the three robust woofers, most folks don't feed enough voltage to their RF-83's. If you have sensitive ears (e.g. are young), you can and will hear a difference.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
, a FREE home automation program. Open-source Z-Wave Premise Module found
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
etc6849 is offline  
post #11 of 14 Old 07-06-2013, 01:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
braveheart123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lone Wolf McQuade from Islamabad Pakistan
Posts: 1,820
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post

The only efficient thing about the RF-83's are the tweeter (IMHO).

I agree 100% with you on this. Um running RF-82 II as mains and they are also power hungry speakers from mid-range and below. But that requirement becomes imperative when they are set to large or in 2-Channel stereo mode, which automatically defaults mains to large. Um running them off CA Azur 751R receiver, which is true 120 wpc all channels driven and 170 watts @ 8 ohms in 2-channel stereo mode. 82s just unleash tremendous amount of bass in 2-channel stereo for all but the ULF (20-30hz) region.

All my previous avrs (Yamaha RX-V3900/Onkyo 809/Denon 3313) just could not provide the high current required in the lower frequency spectrum and sounded terrible with 2-channel stereo mode.

Yes, one will achieve great sonic benefits with an outboard amp in music if the requirement is 2-channel stereo where the mains default to large setting. But for movies IMO, all but the very best of the speakers will shake the room with the help of quality subs more than a quality amp.

History is written by those who have hanged heroes ...

The best EQ is no EQ ...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Main System: Klipsch RF-82 II, Klipsch RC-62 II, RS-52 II, Onkyo 5010, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S300
braveheart123 is online now  
post #12 of 14 Old 07-06-2013, 06:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
oztech's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 7,660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 93
I will agree if you are going to run your speakers set to large at high volume levels then an external amp will be needed but why run them at large if you paid good money for a nice sub that will handle 80Hz and down better than your mains could ever do with a 500 wpc amp driving them not to mention where you have to place your mains for mid bass is usually not ideal for low bass.
oztech is offline  
post #13 of 14 Old 07-06-2013, 07:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chashint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 1,673
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by snydly View Post

I built a home theater and have a JVC U56 with a Studiotek G130, and an Onkly 5008 AV with a Klipsh R 83 speaker system. I added to more rear surround speakers for 7.1. I recently had someone tell me that adding another amp for my mains and center would result in a noticable difference in sound. He recommended a Emotiva amp....any thoughts?
My thoughts are are you have a terrific system including the sub and AVR.
Your speaker system is one of the more efficient systems available at retail, and it will get very loud and still be dynamic without stressing the AVR you have.
Now having said that it appears you may not be completely satisfied with the sound you are getting.
Please describe what is lacking with the sound and also what your system setup is...
1) Crossover, is it a global crossover or is each speaker different?
2) Subwoofer channel level setting in the AVR, and did you adjust it or the volume control on the sub after you ran the auto cal ?
3) What listening mode do you use ? Auto-surround, direct, some form of DSP mode ?

Fwiw, your AVR was measured by Home Theater and with 7 channels driven with test tones and they got 78 watts, 2 channels driven = 162 watts, and 2 channels @ 4 ohms = 248 watts.
That is beastly performance in a sine wave test. Real world material will never hit multiple channels with max peaks at the same time.
You have much more than enough power to cause more hearing loss.
So I personally see no benefit to adding an amplifier to the system you have for any reason other than you want one. (BTW wanting one is plenty reason to add an amp, but if you need sound quality improvement you need to figure out what is wrong and address it instead of just throwing money at things that will have virtually no effect)

Regards,
Charlie

chashint is offline  
post #14 of 14 Old 07-14-2013, 09:41 AM
Advanced Member
 
etc6849's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Irmo, SC
Posts: 622
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 63
I wonder what the OP did? I just hope he didn't buy Emotiva and supported real Americans making a much better product (such as the ATI AT2007).

As someone else stated, the RF-83's are definitely not efficient in the midrange and below. Simply put, going off a single efficiency number stamped on the back is wrong, one needs to realize that a speakers reactance changes dramatically over a frequency range. When a speaker weighs over 100 lbs and has massive magnets on each of its three woofers, the reactive load will change a lot when you drive them (even with a crossover set to 60 Hz).

That said, I agree with the others, get a second RT-12d sub first, then a large amp. If you want to change your sub though, PM me as I'd love to buy it. I eventually want to get four of them. I'm also interested in a second set of RF-83's too.

Onkyo makes good AVRs, but even the best AVR doesn't have the power supply one of the ATI 2007 or ATI 3007 amps have.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
, a FREE home automation program. Open-source Z-Wave Premise Module found
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
etc6849 is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off