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post #1 of 14 Old 06-27-2013, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello

I have been greatly disappointed by Denon. My Denon AVR 1610 stopped working after barely using it.The thing has run maximum 100 hours. The rest of the time it was on standby. It now goes always into surcharge protection. Since then I had to discover that Denon has outsourced the production which I suspect is the reason that cheapo parts were used. My old amplifiers used to work for decades and this thing smoked off after barely 3 years. I am greatly p...ed off.

So my question:

Which company still actually produces its own stuff and offers reasonably priced receivers?
If anyone wants to recommend specific models, please do.

Ideally I am looking for some models produced by dedicated Japanese engineers who would rather chop their right arm off than offering inferior quality.

Looking forward to your comments.

Cheers

Gerry
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post #2 of 14 Old 06-27-2013, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geejay101 View Post

Hello

I have been greatly disappointed by Denon. My Denon AVR 1610 stopped working after barely using it.The thing has run maximum 100 hours. The rest of the time it was on standby. It now goes always into surcharge protection. Since then I had to discover that Denon has outsourced the production which I suspect is the reason that cheapo parts were used. My old amplifiers used to work for decades and this thing smoked off after barely 3 years. I am greatly p...ed off.

So my question:

Which company still actually produces its own stuff and offers reasonably priced receivers?
If anyone wants to recommend specific models, please do.

Ideally I am looking for some models produced by dedicated Japanese engineers who would rather chop their right arm off than offering inferior quality.

Looking forward to your comments.

Cheers

Gerry

Hi Gerry,

I feel for Ya, but anyhow , I also feel some confusion on your side.

1. What do you mean by surcharge protection? Especially by surcharge?
2. If your Denon ran only 100 hours in 3 years, then why not disconnect it from the mains during such a long idling period?
3. Actually all companies produce their "own stuff", never heard of Denon producing Yamaha, or Onkyo producing Pioneer! JK smile.gif
4. Dedicated Japanese engineers do not produce any of the models, its those young men and women wearing lint-free white textile gloves in the factory who are producing them. With the supervision of those dedicated Jap engineers of course. In Japan, in Malaysia, in China, etc.

All this apart, I think you have an issue with your Denon 1610 setup or better to say hook-up if it goes into protection mode (without surcharge, eh?!). Care to look at the speaker terminals at both ends, AVR and speaker side, and look for cable ends possibly touching each other and causing the shutdown?

Hope this helps! smile.gif
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post #3 of 14 Old 06-27-2013, 12:55 PM
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I'm sorry to hear that. I have yet to have Denon quit working on me. I had a 4310 for the last 4 or 5 years that worked fine and didn't give me any trouble, and a 3806 before that. You might have to move up to a more expensive model to get better quailty though.

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post #4 of 14 Old 06-27-2013, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geejay101 View Post

Hello

I have been greatly disappointed by Denon. My Denon AVR 1610 stopped working after barely using it.The thing has run maximum 100 hours. The rest of the time it was on standby. It now goes always into surcharge protection. Since then I had to discover that Denon has outsourced the production which I suspect is the reason that cheapo parts were used. My old amplifiers used to work for decades and this thing smoked off after barely 3 years. I am greatly p...ed off.

So my question:

Which company still actually produces its own stuff and offers reasonably priced receivers?
If anyone wants to recommend specific models, please do.

Ideally I am looking for some models produced by dedicated Japanese engineers who would rather chop their right arm off than offering inferior quality.

Looking forward to your comments.

Cheers

Gerry

Here is a breakout for AVRs and who/where builds them...

BRAND OWN FACTORY
Denon No, Subcontractor in China
Marantz No, subcontractor in China
Yamaha Yes, in Malaysia & China
Onkyo/Integra Yes, in Malaysia
Pioneer No, Subcontractor in China
Harman/Kardon No, Subcontractor in China
Sony Own factory and subcontractors in Malaysia & China
NAD No, Subcontractor in China
Cambridge No, Subcontractor in China
Teac No, Subcontractor in China
Anthem No, Subcontractor in China

Yamaha and Onkyo/Integra are the only AVR brands that designs & builds their AVRs in their own factories.

Just my $0.02... 👍😉
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post #5 of 14 Old 06-27-2013, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Here is a breakout for AVRs and who/where builds them...

BRAND OWN FACTORY
Denon No, Subcontractor in China
Marantz No, subcontractor in China
Yamaha Yes, in Malaysia & China
Onkyo/Integra Yes, in Malaysia
Pioneer No, Subcontractor in China
Harman/Kardon No, Subcontractor in China
Sony Own factory and subcontractors in Malaysia & China
NAD No, Subcontractor in China
Cambridge No, Subcontractor in China
Teac No, Subcontractor in China
Anthem No, Subcontractor in China

Yamaha and Onkyo/Integra are the only AVR brands that designs & builds their AVRs in their own factories.

Just my $0.02... 👍😉

Hi M Code,

And what does all your $0.02 have to do with quality issues, especially the one the OP has? Where are the "own factories" of Onkyo/Integra located at? Japan, Malaysia, China, else?
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post #6 of 14 Old 06-27-2013, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I'm sorry to hear that. I have yet to have Denon quit working on me. I had a 4310 for the last 4 or 5 years that worked fine and didn't give me any trouble, and a 3806 before that. You might have to move up to a more expensive model to get better quailty though.

That's no guarantee. My two previous AVRs were Denons, a 4308ci and a 3808ci. Both started having issues shortly after their respective warranty periods ended.

Things go bad, and sometimes one even gets two duds in a short timeframe. But frankly Denon's after-sales support is not up to the price-tags of their products.

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post #7 of 14 Old 06-27-2013, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I'm sorry to hear that. I have yet to have Denon quit working on me. I had a 4310 for the last 4 or 5 years that worked fine and didn't give me any trouble, and a 3806 before that. You might have to move up to a more expensive model to get better quailty though.

That's no guarantee. My two previous AVRs were Denons, a 4308ci and a 3808ci. Both started having issues shortly after their respective warranty periods ended.

Things go bad, and sometimes one even gets two duds in a short timeframe. But frankly Denon's after-sales support is not up to the price-tags of their products.

(Also, M-Code, doesn't Sherwood's parent make their own stuff, and several of the brands above? smile.gif )

Basically it seems today most AVRs are made by Korean companies with factories in China, such as Inkel, Anam, and a couple others.

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post #8 of 14 Old 06-27-2013, 04:01 PM
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Use an AMEX card to buy it then - and get an extra year of warranty ( for a total of 4 years ), just to be safe. After 5 years your receiver will be outdated anyway.

Craig Peer, AV Science Sales. Call me on my direct line - 585-671-2972, 8:30am - 4:30pm PST, Monday - Friday
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post #9 of 14 Old 06-27-2013, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi M Code,

And what does all your $0.02 have to do with quality issues, especially the one the OP has? Where are the "own factories" of Onkyo/Integra located at? Japan, Malaysia, China, else?

The questions were asked...
"3. Actually all companies produce their "own stuff", never heard of Denon producing Yamaha, or Onkyo producing Pioneer! JK
4. Dedicated Japanese engineers do not produce any of the models, its those young men and women wearing lint-free white textile gloves in the factory who are producing them. With the supervision of those dedicated Jap engineers of course. In Japan, in Malaysia, in China, etc."

So we provided a response, noting which brands in fact produced their own stuff....." wink.gif

Regarding quality issues, this opens many areas...
The 1st is Denon does not build their own stuff, but before condemning the brand and/or factory maybe a review of the AVR install is in order...
1. Does the AVR have the adequate free-air clearance of 4-5" for the L/R sides and top cover as noted by Denon?
2. Was their any component stacked on top blocking the top cover?
3. Any shorts in the loudspeaker wiring?
4. What brand/model loudspeaker is connected?
5. How loud was the AVR played?
6. How big is the listening room?

Note that I have visited the Denon subcontractor factory, many , many times and I can tell you that Denon's QA standards are far more rigid than the AVRs' brand that owns the factory... 😁


Just my $0.02... 👍😉
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post #10 of 14 Old 06-27-2013, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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M Code,

thanks for the info. That is indeed very helpful to know.

Please be assured that the AVR was extremely seldom used at low output. no shorts etc.. The thing just self-destructed.

It may well be the case that the Denon does have very strict specs for its supplier. However the policy of using subcontractors for the entire production leads in tendency to a situation where the actual manufacturer does cut corners to turn a profit. Its just human nature.

In contrast when the manufacturer produces by itself then the executing employees tend to be more generous with the specifications and the parts because they want to avoid to be reprimanded when things fail. That works in benefit of the customer.

Whatever the reasons for failure. A company which produces an AVR which costs several hundred dollars and which then completely fails due to some power regulator part which costs cents is off my list. I am also extremely annoyed that the Denon support guys here cannot update the firmware and refuse to do it because the flashing tool costs 150 USD. Why does Denon non provide trivial means to flash the AVR? IMNSHO these Denon people have simply not understood that they are creating expenses and unnecessary troubles for their customers just to make a few bucks extra.

So, clearly Denon is not working in my interest.

Yamaha and Onkyo then seem to be the way. I note also that they provide easy access to their firmware updates.

Any cheap reliable 5.1 model you could recommend from those companies?

Cheers and thanks again.

Gerry
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post #11 of 14 Old 06-27-2013, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Use an AMEX card to buy it then - and get an extra year of warranty ( for a total of 4 years ), just to be safe. After 5 years your receiver will be outdated anyway.

Or just buy a brand where you won't hear them say on a less than 3.5 year old $2000+ AVR, "Sorry your digital board is toast. It'll be $500+ to fix, if we even have the part."

Denon lost me for good with that frankly barbaric treatment of a free-spending customer. (My previous three AVRs were Denons, with a combined MSRP of about $6k.) The only good thing about it is that looking in the market let me to Anthem's ARC room correction, which is a big improvement over Audyssey (handles the upper bass better, doesn't introduce that midrange notch, can set to not apply EQ above the modal region.).

And in truth a 5 year old AVR is not "outdated." There are some improvements in newer ones (better room correction software, etc.) but if the old ones still work then they're fine. You can still play DVD-A or SACD over HDMI, you have competent digital bass management, etc.

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post #12 of 14 Old 06-27-2013, 11:07 PM
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Which other brand will you buy then? They can all have problems. Good luck.

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post #13 of 14 Old 06-28-2013, 09:13 AM
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I would be willing to bet if you broke down every piece of hi-fi gear currently made it would have parts mfg'd from all over.
Power supply, Caps, Circuit Boards, Chassis ,Remotes , and Display Panels not to mention where the various chips come from.
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post #14 of 14 Old 07-24-2013, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
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My Denon 1610 is back from repair.

Diagnosis:
- cold solder point
- bad capacitors in the power supply.

Costs of spare parts: close to zilch.

Luckily I am sitting in a developing country where an electronics engineer hunts for hours/days with low pay. Repair costs: 50 USD.

Knock-on wood that this works now for good.

IMVHO this shows that Denon is unnecessarily economizing on minor parts which cost potentially big the consumer.

If Denon would produce by itself I am sure they would not cut corners on such minor parts which cost pennies.

Cheers

Gerry
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