Receiver With Bi-Amping and Powerful Crossover Controls - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 11 Old 07-03-2013, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello Everyone,

I'm in an unusual predicament. I have a Pioneer Elite 92-TXH bi-amping two JBL L890 speakers and routing low frequency sound to an SVSound PB-1000. This was actually a great sound system when the subwoofer wasn't included. Strong sound at high volumes, only having issues with the real low ends where distortion occurred at high volumes.

I recently added the PB-1000 sub in order to get some stronger lowend, sub 50hz for sure. Then came the disaster. The Pioneer receiver is a one size fits all type of receiver when you enable crossovers for subs. Regardless of your configuration, it immediately sets the lowend EQ band of 63hz to some seriously low value (bass is mostly inaudible, tinny sound up to the next EQ band of 125hz). This completely ruins the sound quality, stripping away much of the warmth that my speakers were tuned for, +6db at 63hz, +2db at 125hz, mostly flat from 125hz to 16khz.

Because of this strange restriction on the 63hz band, which by the way, is blocked out and is not configurable when a crossover is enabled and the speakers are small. Without an ability to adjust the warmth on my speakers (~63hz - 125hz), I don't really see a point of adding this sub. My question to anyone who has dealt with this before, what receiver or brand should I go to for to get what I already have without the loss of control when a subwoofer is introduced?

Pioneer's sound quality is great, but if I can't control the low-end mid bass when I enable a crossover, then I can't use it with a subwoofer.

EDIT: I tried tricking the EQ by reducing each band by 6db, assuming the unsettable 63hz is set to 0, to see if I could restore the sub 100hz frequencies on the loud speakers. This didn't work at all, some magic happening in the receiver is further adjusting the low end of the loud speakers when the crossover is enabled (50hz).
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post #2 of 11 Old 07-03-2013, 09:31 PM
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Sounds like you're bi-wiring at best with that receiver and speakers IMHO. You're saying MCACC prevents you from making changes to setup? My Pioneer allowed that, and I could have several saved variations of MCACC settings. At first thought you were talking about a real crossover to actually active bi-amp speakers like the Onkyo 818.

ps and rereading your post maybe it is just basic setup for crossover without MCACC. So what's the crossover level you are setting?

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post #3 of 11 Old 07-04-2013, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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So the speakers have been initially configured with Auto MCACC + multi-point standing wave tuning. Afterwards, I go back to the EQ and flatten it out with a +6db increase at 63hz, and about a 2-3db increase at 125hz to make the sound more warm.

This tuning was with both front speakers set to LARGE. If I add a subwoofer, in order for the crossover to work, I have to set the speakers to small. Once set to small, the subwoofer will kick in at the crossover I set. Unfortunately, setting the speakers to small also hides the 63hz band in the MCACC EQ adjustment. Not only is the 63hz band hidden, it's set to a very low value that completely ruins my speakers for music.

To get around this, I'm setting the speakers to LARGE and the subwoofer to PLUS. This plays the full range of sound to the loud speakers and some range that doesn't bide by the crossover setting in the speaker configuration. I manually set the subwoofer crossover to something around 60hz on the actual sub itself. So far this sounds fine, but I'm pretty sure at louder volumes, I'll put unnecessary stress on the receiver's amp whenever frequencies reach below 63hz.

To answer your last question, I've been fiddling between 50hz and 80hz. Ideally I want 50hz, but because I can't tune the 63hz band, I can't use that setting using the configuration Pioneer wants on their receiver.
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post #4 of 11 Old 07-04-2013, 03:08 PM
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What crossover value are you using?


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post #5 of 11 Old 07-04-2013, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Right now or what I can't seem to do correctly? I would like 50hz on the receiver, but I can't control 50hz - 125hz in the EQ when the crossover is active. Right now I'm just doing full range with no crossover on the receiver, crossover adjustment on the sub itself is at about 60hz (two or three notches over 50hz) and it sounds great.
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post #6 of 11 Old 07-04-2013, 07:43 PM
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You should redo your AVR set-up. Set your speakers to small-cross them over at
Either 60hz or even 80hz. You have a nice sub that will handle the freq below 80hz
Better than the speakers. My humble opinion.
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post #7 of 11 Old 07-04-2013, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damentz View Post

Right now or what I can't seem to do correctly? I would like 50hz on the receiver, but I can't control 50hz - 125hz in the EQ when the crossover is active. Right now I'm just doing full range with no crossover on the receiver, crossover adjustment on the sub itself is at about 60hz (two or three notches over 50hz) and it sounds great.
if the AVR crossover is at 50hz, the sub crossover should be at its highest setting or, better, completely off. You are probably getting cancellation at the crossover range.

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post #8 of 11 Old 07-04-2013, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damentz View Post

Right now or what I can't seem to do correctly? I would like 50hz on the receiver, but I can't control 50hz - 125hz in the EQ when the crossover is active. Right now I'm just doing full range with no crossover on the receiver, crossover adjustment on the sub itself is at about 60hz (two or three notches over 50hz) and it sounds great.

Bad Idea!!!

When you set your mains as full range or large, bass is not redirected to the sub. Only LFE is played by the sub which is mixed from 120Hz and below. Since you have set 60Hz LPF on sub itself, there is a big hole from 60Hz to 120Hz in LFE content. You are effectively missing about 50% of LFE.

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The best EQ is no EQ ...

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post #9 of 11 Old 07-06-2013, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Bad Idea!!!

When you set your mains as full range or large, bass is not redirected to the sub. Only LFE is played by the sub which is mixed from 120Hz and below. Since you have set 60Hz LPF on sub itself, there is a big hole from 60Hz to 120Hz in LFE content. You are effectively missing about 50% of LFE.

Ha, you're right! I was doing some tone tests for the 50-100hz range and noticed that even with a low crossover, sound still makes it to the sub if I choose a frequency above the crossover range, but at a lower volume. I disabled the crossover on the sub itself, the receiver appears to be doing its job there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

if the AVR crossover is at 50hz, the sub crossover should be at its highest setting or, better, completely off. You are probably getting cancellation at the crossover range.

I tested for this, and there was some weird phasing going on, maybe by the position of my sub (left of couch). I turned off phase control and that cleared up the phase issues between sub and front speakers. Tones at the crossover frequency are solid.

Btw, I want to restate my question, I think it got lost. I can't EQ below 125hz when my front speakers are set to small, what's an alternative to the receiver I have now (Pioneer Elite 92TXH), that lets me do this? I was looking at some Onkyo receivers that would end up being a nice upgrade, lower thd, equivalent or higher wattage per channel. The problem is even with LFE in full effect, the bass still sounds too thin and the sub frequencies, 30hz to 20hz are actually too loud (first world problems). This might be acoustics of my house, but music sounds worse when I set my front speakers to small. I lose all the punch that the speakers were good at.
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post #10 of 11 Old 07-07-2013, 01:33 AM
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Quote:
Ha, you're right! I was doing some tone tests for the 50-100hz range and noticed that even with a low crossover, sound still makes it to the sub if I choose a frequency above the crossover range, but at a lower volume. I disabled the crossover on the sub itself, the receiver appears to be doing its job there.

Test tones are not LFE. Test tones greater than the XO point you set still make it to the sub coz 50Hz is not a brick wall. It gradually slopes towards the mains by a fixed amount of roll off (6/12/18/24 dB per octave) depending on how your avr performs the bass management.

Redirected bass is not brick walled, whereas LFE is at 120Hz.

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The best EQ is no EQ ...

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Dual Dayton RSS390HO-4 Reference 15 Build For HT

Main System: Klipsch RF-82 II, Klipsch RC-62 II, RS-52 II, Onkyo 5010, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S300
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post #11 of 11 Old 07-07-2013, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damentz View Post

Btw, I want to restate my question, I think it got lost. I can't EQ below 125hz when my front speakers are set to small, what's an alternative to the receiver I have now (Pioneer Elite 92TXH), that lets me do this? I was looking at some Onkyo receivers that would end up being a nice upgrade, lower thd, equivalent or higher wattage per channel. The problem is even with LFE in full effect, the bass still sounds too thin and the sub frequencies, 30hz to 20hz are actually too loud (first world problems). This might be acoustics of my house, but music sounds worse when I set my front speakers to small. I lose all the punch that the speakers were good at.

Understood.  Of course, you need to understand that any automatic EQ, like Audyssey, sets a relatively flat response as its target and your preference may be for an personally satisfying response curve that is not flat.  (Without good measurements, we are speaking theoretically here.)  The best routes I can suggest are to get a stand-alone EQ (Trinnov, DEQX, Lyngdorf, Rives PARC, AntiMode 2.0, etc) which will permit you to customize your response after/instead of the flat response is achieved.  They are fairly expensive.  You could also get a Velodyne SMS-1 which will permit that for the sub channel alone.  A more real-world solution is to get an AVR with AudysseyPro compatibility.  The additional-cost encumbered by buying the Audyssey MultEQ Pro kit will allow you to modify the target response curve of each channel/speaker.

 

There are cheaper solutions from the pro audio market but I am not up on them.


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