What's most important - AMP, Subwoofer or Speakers? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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Receivers, Amps, and Processors > What's most important - AMP, Subwoofer or Speakers?
Louquid's Avatar Louquid 12:57 PM 07-11-2013
On good days I can hear 18Hz easily in my room. This is near the end of my volume knob though. I will say that it does sound significantly different than a 19 or 20Hz tone. As a 20Hz tone sounds significantly different than any other tones. Harmonics do play a big role in LFE tracks, and it gets difficult to distinguish frequencies from one another. Sometimes the only way to know for sure you're playing in the ULF range is to feel your room flex around you. It is an entirely different experience when it feels as though your walls are squeezing in/out on you.

I agree that the single digit chasing is a bit extreme. But, it has been said many times on AVS that solid output to 15Hz allows for 99% enjoyment with LFE. I can agree with this.

Ryan1's Avatar Ryan1 12:58 PM 07-11-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ Ok, let's add some context to these assertions.

...

Last and perhaps most imperatively...what are you really hearing? 95 times out of 100 almost certainly harmonics far beyond that of the "stated" frequency. This has been demonstrated time and time again. ...

Precisely.

20Hz is generally accepted as the lower limit of human hearing because for humans, at lower frequencies tonality and sensation of pitch decrease fairly rapidly, and practically disappear at about 20Hz. Which may explain why people like JL Audio consider infrasound to be "noise," as without tonality, it is basically just that.

Sure, you can possibly hear sound down to about 16-17Hz if loud enough, but it will be noise. Below 16Hz, with enough amplification you may feel it in various parts of your body and even perceive a pop or two, but most people would deem this undesirable effects ("noise") and it has no particular value, other than as an experiment.

Another problem with frequencies below 25Hz is that even anechoic chambers start becoming reflective below this point, which can certainly cause significant issues in the average HT room (see also the low frequency room lift I noted before).
Louquid's Avatar Louquid 01:09 PM 07-11-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

Precisely.

20Hz is generally accepted as the lower limit of human hearing because for humans, at lower frequencies tonality and sensation of pitch decrease fairly rapidly, and practically disappear at about 20Hz. Which may explain why people like JL Audio consider infrasound to be "noise," as without tonality, it is basically just that.

Sure, you can possibly hear sound down to about 16-17Hz if loud enough, but it will be noise. Below 16Hz, with enough amplification you may feel it in various parts of your body and even perceive a pop or two, but most people would deem this undesirable effects ("noise") and it has no particular value, other than as an experiment.

Another problem with frequencies below 25Hz is that even anechoic chambers start becoming reflective below this point, which can certainly cause significant issues in the average HT room (see also the low frequency room lift I noted before).

All previous bickering aside between us, you should try to experience ULF. To deny yourself the experience is wrong. lol

Seriously though, quality ULF doesn't feel like noise. It simply makes the most intense parts of movies more tangible. Those who have experienced quality ULF don't consider this "noise" or "undesirable effects". Multiple subwoofers and EQ can eliminate any problems with boominess or room distortion.
mastermaybe's Avatar mastermaybe 01:11 PM 07-11-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

On good days I can hear 18Hz easily in my room. This is near the end of my volume knob though. I will say that it does sound significantly different than a 19 or 20Hz tone. As a 20Hz tone sounds significantly different than any other tones. Harmonics do play a big role in LFE tracks, and it gets difficult to distinguish frequencies from one another. Sometimes the only way to know for sure you're playing in the ULF range is to feel your room flex around you. It is an entirely different experience when it feels as though your walls are squeezing in/out on you.

I agree that the single digit chasing is a bit extreme. But, it has been said many times on AVS that solid output to 15Hz allows for 99% enjoyment with LFE. I can agree with this.

TONS of harmonics going on with those tones, my friend.


James
mastermaybe's Avatar mastermaybe 01:12 PM 07-11-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

All previous bickering aside between us, you should try to experience ULF. To deny yourself the experience is wrong. lol

Seriously though, quality ULF doesn't feel like noise. It simply makes the most intense parts of movies more tangible. Those who have experienced quality ULF don't consider this "noise" or "undesirable effects". Multiple subwoofers and EQ can eliminate any problems with boominess or room distortion.

I cannot speak for Ryan, but I can assure you that I'm getting it done:




Nothing I would advise anyone to chase after for the reasons I listed, respectfully. My apparent sub-stupidity was done with a future, much larger space in mind, just fyi.


James
Louquid's Avatar Louquid 01:25 PM 07-11-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

TONS of harmonics going on with those tones, my friend.


James

I fully understand this. Harmonics are very interesting. Regardless of harmonics, a 20Hz tone sounds significantly lower than a 30Hz tone.
Louquid's Avatar Louquid 01:26 PM 07-11-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I cannot speak for Ryan, but I can assure you that I'm getting it done:




Nothing I would advise anyone to chase after for the reasons I listed, respectfully. My apparent sub-stupidity was done with a future, much larger space in mind, just fyi.


James

I remember this system. Still one of the sharpest around.

No doubt you're getting some serious presurrization with quad Daytons. Do you not enjoy it?
Decepticon07's Avatar Decepticon07 07:56 PM 07-11-2013
Bring your Velodyne over and I will show you. Half of the subwoofers I have owned were Velodyne. I am just stating I will never go back to them. Enjoy your Velodyne.
wyliec2's Avatar wyliec2 08:57 PM 07-11-2013
For the OP who's now MIA, the biggest factor is the room. Then speakers, subs, processing/amps.

Lot's of heated diatribe...DUDES, et al, remember your posts are OPINIONS, like certain bodily orifices, everyone has one and they all stink in some manner (ie. everyone has a bias in their opinion)....

As for my opines:
1) Dollar for dollar, you can do better than Velodyne; although if price is secondary to size, finish and simplicity, Velodyne is a consideration.
2) Having used a DD15 for a while, comparing Velodyne to Bose is blatantly clueless; I sold my Velodyne because I could get a much better return on it than for my ID (SVS, Epik) items. I wish I still had it for my family room system.
3) I would not consider Velodyne for my dedicated theater. It's dark, and purpose-designed so large boxes, room treatments and bass traps are accommodated. For real ULF I use several LFE transducers under the furniture.

biggrin.gif
MichaelJHuman's Avatar MichaelJHuman 11:53 AM 07-12-2013
Clearly, an untreated room could add the most distortion to the signal. I have seen 10 dB swings in the room response.

Your front speakers may be a bit more important than other speakers. Sure seems like you would want timbre matched left, center and front. Speakers are a bit of an objective device, because there's compromised involved in making them. Clearly all speakers are important, because they are what you hear.

A subwoofer IS a speaker. But it's also often a powered speaker. So you need sufficient power. And ideally, it would not have too much distortion. The higher the crossover used, the more it would seem important to minimize distortion.

Electronics are overrated. Primary goal is usability and sufficient amp power. You can argue all day over stuff that can't be quantified by measurements, or you can just trust that reputable gear has distortion lower than any of the above factors. If you can hear the difference between two preamps, DACs, amps, etc., and have the money to buy the better sounding (perhaps not even the most accurate gear,) then do that smile.gif

Personally, I avoid low end receivers because they have small transformers, and seem incapable of sufficient power. If you buy a receiver with enough power, you may have little to complain about - but some audiophiles insist they must be bad, because they don't cost a lot, and lack a prestigious name on the front panel.
mastermaybe's Avatar mastermaybe 08:58 AM 07-14-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

I remember this system. Still one of the sharpest around.

No doubt you're getting some serious presurrization with quad Daytons. Do you not enjoy it?

Thanks...yep it's a lot of fun. Sometimes I think I get "used" to it but then it only takes a trip to someone else's "normal" scenario, lol.

We all have are vices, I guess this is mine.

James
Tags: Velodyne Optimum Series 10 Inch Subwoofer Enclosures Black
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