Choosing to optout of Audyssey MultEQ xt32. Smart decision??? What I hear ... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 07-06-2013, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys,

So, I completely restored my Denon 4311 to factory settings and decided to NOT do the automatic set up with Audyssey just to see what kind of sound I get and sound I get is pretty good. It seems like before, after running Audyssey, it would tone down the highs due to my room bouncy acoustics, thus possibly harming the sound.

Question is .... am I really missing anything if I opt out of auto set up??? Other than Dynamic Volume control.

The only things I changed manually were...

Sub frequency 120
Crossover 90
Speakers set to small
Speaker distance measured manually
Channel volume ... due to no SPL meter had to do it by ear.


Have any of you opted out of automatic calibration systems that came with your receivers???

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post #2 of 16 Old 07-06-2013, 04:27 PM
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If Audyssey hasn't been run, you also cannot use either Dynamic EQ or Dynamic Volume.

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post #3 of 16 Old 07-06-2013, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

If Audyssey hasn't been run, you also cannot use either Dynamic EQ or Dynamic Volume.

I know, I mentioned that in my post.
Do you know of a way to get these things working and turning off Audyssey? Is it that function that I saw on remote for MultiEQ that after pressing multiple times you get to Audyssey OFF. Would that be as if I never ran it in the first place?

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post #4 of 16 Old 07-06-2013, 05:09 PM
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You mentioned Dynamic Volume only ... I added Dynamic EQ, and no, on Denon AVRs you cannot use either Dyn EQ nor Dyn Vol without Audyssey being enabled.

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post #5 of 16 Old 07-08-2013, 12:14 PM
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I think it is NOT a good idea to forego Audyssey in your prepro setup. Obviously, there are many advantages to having room correction, which have been analyzed to death on this site already, so I won't go into them again.

The high frequency roll-off above 10khz is the most negative comment I usually hear about Audyssey. I'm not sure why some manufacturers don't give you the option to defeat that HF roll-off (some manufacturers do. I think Marantz gives you the option to have an "Audyssey Flat" curve without the HF rolloff.)

So I say, run Audyssey on your prepro. You can always turn it off, or run your system in Direct mode, or whatever Denon calls the equivalent mode. And, I do strongly believe that movies sound much better with Audyssey than without.

My two cents.

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post #6 of 16 Old 07-08-2013, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMark1 View Post


The high frequency roll-off above 10khz is the most negative comment I usually hear about Audyssey. I'm not sure why some manufacturers don't give you the option to defeat that HF roll-off (some manufacturers do. I think Marantz gives you the option to have an "Audyssey Flat" curve without the HF rolloff.)

There is also the downsampling concern, but I'm not sure how many blu-rays have a lossless soundtrack sampling at over 48hz.

In any event, why not set up for Audyssey and then listen with it both enabled and disabled? Passive room treatment will be even more critical without room correction processing.

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post #7 of 16 Old 07-09-2013, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMark1 View Post


And, I do strongly believe that movies sound much better with Audyssey than without.

My two cents.

That depends on the AVR. Cambridge Audio Azur's raw output in movies is far better than the same EQd by Audyssey MultiEQ XT in Denon 3313

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post #8 of 16 Old 07-09-2013, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

That depends on the AVR. Cambridge Audio Azur's raw output in movies is far better than the same EQd by Audyssey MultiEQ XT in Denon 3313

I think that would be very room and system dependant. Audyssey takes much of the room's contribution out of the equation, which will give you a more consistent result across a broad spectrum of rooms. However, I agree that a perfect room and a perfect system would sound better without additional Audyssey processing. Unfortunately, most of us don't have perfect rooms and systems... wink.gif

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post #9 of 16 Old 07-09-2013, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

There is also the downsampling concern, but I'm not sure how many blu-rays have a lossless soundtrack sampling at over 48hz.

In any event, why not set up for Audyssey and then listen with it both enabled and disabled? Passive room treatment will be even more critical without room correction processing.

The downsampling issue is not an ideal solution, by any means. Now that the downsampling hornet's nest has been exposed and stirred up, I expect we'll start seeing manufacturers ponying up for more powerful DSP chips in their products so they don't have to downsample, and can market that as a new "feature".

The jury is probably still out on whether such downsampling is actually audible during normal listening, but I would rather keep everything at it's native resolution, of course. Incidently, most Blurays I've seen have had lossless soundtracks at 24 bit / 48khz resolution. I believe it is the bitrate that is far more important than the sampling rate, so I am glad Audyssey is using the 24 bit rate, even if they are downsampling to 48khz from higher sampling rates.

Good advice on setting up Audyssey and using your own ears to judge in your own system. Also, good advice on the importance of passive room treatment in a good system. I think movies benefit greatly from Audyssey, mainly due to the amount of bass used in soundtracks vs. music material only. After all, Audyssey does it's best work in controlling room modes from 300Hz on down. But, in a good system and room, I think music can sound better without the Audyssey processing. Although, even that is not an absolute, and can depend on the music being played.

I guess the bottom line is set up Audyssey, and use your own ears! biggrin.gif

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post #10 of 16 Old 07-10-2013, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMark1 View Post

The high frequency roll-off above 10khz is the most negative comment I usually hear about Audyssey. I'm not sure why some manufacturers don't give you the option to defeat that HF roll-off (some manufacturers do. I think Marantz gives you the option to have an "Audyssey Flat" curve without the HF rolloff.)

The Denon and Onkyo AVRs also have the option. That covers most AVR brands using Audyssey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

There is also the downsampling concern, but I'm not sure how many blu-rays have a lossless soundtrack sampling at over 48hz.

It might have been a problem in the past, and IIRC only applied to 192kHz dts-HD MA but it wasn't downsampling as such, rather not able to apply Audyssey. It is unlikely to be a problem now but since you cannot capture processed digital audio out and measure it you can't be 100% sure unless the AVR has info display to tell you (mine does and it remains 192kHz). In any case there're only a handful of BDs with 192kHz dts-HD MA.
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Originally Posted by DMark1 View Post

I believe it is the bitrate that is far more important than the sampling rate, so I am glad Audyssey is using the 24 bit rate, even if they are downsampling to 48khz from higher sampling rates.

The '24' is not the bit-rate. How can you tell Audyssey is processing in 24-bit words?

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post #11 of 16 Old 07-10-2013, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

The Denon and Onkyo AVRs also have the option. That covers most AVR brands using Audyssey.

I own an Onkyo PRSC-5508, and it does NOT give you an Audyssey Flat option to eliminate the 10khz rolloff point. (Integra 80.2 is the same pre/pro inside). So, I'm not sure where you are getting your information...? I don't know about the Denons.

Quote:
It might have been a problem in the past, and IIRC only applied to 192kHz dts-HD MA but it wasn't downsampling as such, rather not able to apply Audyssey. It is unlikely to be a problem now but since you cannot capture processed digital audio out and measure it you can't be 100% sure unless the AVR has info display to tell you (mine does and it remains 192kHz). In any case there're only a handful of BDs with 192kHz dts-HD MA.

No, I think you are wrong on this one, too. You need to read the Secrets of Home Theater article by Dr. David A. Rich that started this whole Audyssey downsampling debacle....

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/audio-calibration/audio-calibration-reviews/anthem-room-correction-arc-system-part-1/page-9-room-gain.html

Specifically, read the section entitled "Notes on High Resolution Signal Processing". The article even shows graphs taken from the Marantz AV8801 showing that the prepro is clearly downsampling to 48khz when Audyssey is engaged. This is because most prepros don't have enough DSP computing power to do full rez Audyssey processing - However, Audyssey DOES support full 192k sampling rates IF there is enough DSP power to do it in the prepro. It is up the the manufacturer to provide enough DSP power.

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The '24' is not the bit-rate. How can you tell Audyssey is processing in 24-bit words?

Uh, I'm pretty sure the "24" is the bit rate... as in 24-bit/192Khz: 24-bit is the bitrate and 192khz is the sampling rate... What else would you call it? ...

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post #12 of 16 Old 07-10-2013, 11:15 AM
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24 is the bit depth. Bitrate refers to how many bits are coming over in a signal at a given time whether it is video or audio.

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post #13 of 16 Old 07-10-2013, 11:15 AM
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And I also agree that bit depth is more important than sampling rate.

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post #14 of 16 Old 07-10-2013, 01:04 PM
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OK, I meant to say "Bit Depth" :-)

Thanks for clearing that up, Kris!

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post #15 of 16 Old 07-10-2013, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

And I also agree that bit depth is more important than sampling rate.

If one performs reliable listening tests (level matched, time synched, double blind) one finds that exceeding 16 bits and 44,100 Hz sampling has no audible effects if the reproduction system is reasonably free of distortion. Therefore Audyssey's downsampling causes no audible loss of sound quality.

Dr. Rich seems to make no claims about the audibility of this change. Based on his past writiings, I would expect him to eventually conclude that there are none.
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post #16 of 16 Old 07-10-2013, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

The Denon and Onkyo AVRs also have the option. That covers most AVR brands using Audyssey.

I own an Onkyo PRSC-5508, and it does NOT give you an Audyssey Flat option to eliminate the 10khz rolloff point. (Integra 80.2 is the same pre/pro inside). So, I'm not sure where you are getting your information...? I don't know about the Denons.

denon/marantz and onkyo/integra use different terminology when it comes to audyssey eq curves. denon/marntz use "flat" where onkyo/integra use "music" for the eq curve that eliminates the high frequency roll off - my onkyo 809 as this so I presume your 5508 should too.

So yes indeed, pretty much all AVR's w/ ausyssey allows the user to use a flat eq curve...the only one I am not sure about are the NAD units w/ ausyssey.

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