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post #1 of 32 Old 07-14-2013, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I need to seriously replace the "got it free with the TV" reciever I am using (Samsung AV-R720 bought back in 2007?). So, here is my setup. I built a theater in my basement. The room is approximately 24x14 setup with currently 2 rows of seating, 3 in the plan. As a matter of fact, the seats are old office lobby seats that my company gave away after a remodel. But that is for a different forum and a larger budget to fix considering there are 17 seats to buy. Anyway, I have been gearing up over the years. I started with a Panasonic PT-AE4000U projector on a budget accoustically transparent screen. (Accuscreen 92" Fixed SoundScreen). I have since replaced the cheap Samsung 5 surround speakers with HTD HD-W65's (7 of them). The overall sound is better but the Samsung system was not designed to drive speakers this size. I am still using the Samsung sub but it lacks a full punch. I am likely to upgrade it as well. The HTD's are very bright, but I think the full sound lacking is because the Samsung is maxed at 100watts per channel and the entire unit feels like it weighs only 2 lbs. I have been following the Onkyo line for a while but I am not committed yet. Just know they make good products generally. I have talked with a few folks that say if its power I am looking at, then Pioneer is just as good at a lower price point.

So, I would like something that drives approximately 140 watts per channel so it can adequately drive the speakers. I would like something like Audyssey or some automation in balancing the sound. I am considering adding a 2nd sub so I would like 7.2 but I wired the room to do at least 9.2 (THX rated monster cable). But, I think 7.2 with the in walls is enough sound for the room. I would like something that will drive the speakers, sound good, and give me room to add a second sub or just replace the one I have which begs the question when is it good to have two subs vs one? Oh, and my budget is Approximately $1200 give or take a couple hundred. Anyway, suggestions and your own experience would be great.

TIA

allen
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post #2 of 32 Old 07-14-2013, 01:32 PM
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With that budget you should consider the new Denon X4000 which includes the most advanced version of Audyssey MultEQ XT32. It also includes Sub EQ HT which can be used to set the level and delay for dual subs. Although it does have two sub pre-outs, note that with any AVR with a single sub pre-out, you simply need add a $5 RCA "Y" splitter cable to split the signal to dual subs. Review the first couple of posts in the "2013 Denon AVR-E/X Models" thread linked in my sig for more info as well as review that thread for thoughts from new X4000 owners.

The X4000 is also expandable to 9.2 with the addition of a 2CH external amp or even your old Samsung AVR.
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post #3 of 32 Old 07-14-2013, 01:37 PM
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That Samsung is highly unlikely to have a real 100W per channel. Samsung says 850W total. What does that mean? I think it means peak power, not continuous. It might be 35W continuous.

But very few receivers have 140W. Even those rated for that much power can only deliver that power for two channels, not five or seven.

I think 100W though is more than enough for most people with typical speakers. What you really should do to tame that brightness is get a much better sub. That Samsung sub is probably a 6.5 or 8 inch sub and your room is far too big for that.
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post #4 of 32 Old 07-18-2013, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. I will take a look.
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post #5 of 32 Old 07-18-2013, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano View Post

That Samsung is highly unlikely to have a real 100W per channel.

Very true... especially when the receiver is so extremely light weight (literally lacking solid poundage). I also agree on the sub perspective. Its nice for having something and provides audible bass but it misses that umpf and rattle your seat feel overall. Any suggestions on a receiver for the setup?
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post #6 of 32 Old 07-18-2013, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

With that budget you should consider the new Denon X4000 which includes the most advanced version of Audyssey MultEQ XT32. It also includes Sub EQ HT which can be used to set the level and delay for dual subs. Although it does have two sub pre-outs, note that with any AVR with a single sub pre-out, you simply need add a $5 RCA "Y" splitter cable to split the signal to dual subs. Review the first couple of posts in the "2013 Denon AVR-E/X Models" thread linked in my sig for more info as well as review that thread for thoughts from new X4000 owners.

The X4000 is also expandable to 9.2 with the addition of a 2CH external amp or even your old Samsung AVR.

This only works well when the subs are co-located. If the subs are in different locations the phase distance and levels will be different so may cause issues. It could work, but is not optimal.

PapMcEuin,

I would recommend looking for the discontinued Denon 4311 if you can find one. I don't know about the newer X4000 that jdsmoothie recommended, but the 4311 has native 9.2 support with 11.2 optional using an external amp. Also, the sub channels are truly independent of each other and each gets calibrated individually with individual calibrated signals. They are not simply the same channel with an internal "Y" connection getting the same signal as with some other units.
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post #7 of 32 Old 07-18-2013, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Stupid iOS refresh.... Rethumbing.... Ok, I like the X4000 reviews and options plus found it online for $1049. 27lbs should have solid power on the amp side vs my crappy 3 lbs Samsung freebie. Got you on the sub thing. Anyone heard of htd.com? I have a Rockford fosgate 12" in a homemade cab. Used it for bass guitar and kills when properly powered. Thinking about HTD's SDA-500 which can remote power the sub that I will place in the back of the theater on the raised seating. I stupidly failed to run power there though so I have to run a remote sub amp to the woofer cab. Thoughts?
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post #8 of 32 Old 07-18-2013, 12:26 PM
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Or if your local Costco still has one look at the Pioneer SC-1522 which can be had for $599 and is a 9.2 receiver.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/AV-Receivers/Pioneer+Receivers/SC-1522-K

There are some on ebay also, probably from people who bought several from Costco and tried to make a little profit.

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post #9 of 32 Old 07-18-2013, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Ok, I like the X4000 reviews and options plus found it online for $1049.

Make sure you get it from an authorized dealer or it voids the 3 year warranty.

I think you can buy it right here from the AVS store.

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post #10 of 32 Old 07-18-2013, 12:49 PM
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Without knowing your needs, but based on your setup and receiver budget, I would say a 12" sub is going to be inadequate for that room. You don't mention if it's in sealed, vented or other type of enclosure other than that it is homemade. Assuming a sealed 24' x 14' x 8' (guessing since you didn't state ceiling height) that gives you ~2700ft^3 you need to pressurize. You are planning on a 17 seat capacity which means I assume you plan on entertaining family/guests. If that's the case, you better bring your "A" game for 17 people.

A 12" sub in a sealed box = definite FAIL in that room if you want to give a good show. Maybe the JL Audio Fathom F112 could do it, but at $3100 retail I'd pass on it for a 12" sub. For that price you can build a pair of 18" LMS Ultras with proper power for them that would absolutely give you a ULF experience. 12" vented = less FAIL, but still will be underwhelming. 12" in a horn loaded enclosure + possibly up to the task. Unfortunately, it will be huge relatively huge, but possible.

I say if you're willing to put in some sweat equity, head on over to the DIY forum and read up on some builds. In that size room, I'd start with a couple of sealed 15" subs. Again, it all depends on what how good you want your HT experience to be. I'm guessing with seating for 17 you're wanting something respectable. Whatever you decide, you'll want at least two subs that are NOT co-located to even out bass response across the large seating area. Then invest in some measuring equipment and learn how to use it. If not, I guarantee you that some seat will have loud boomy bass while others may barely hear it at all at certain frequencies.

Sorry for going off on a tangent and rambling.
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post #11 of 32 Old 07-18-2013, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so being ready to get something and a few live phone calls with friends about which brand line to go with, I ordered the X4000. I had been looking at specs but ready to buy.

@duc135, I am fine with the extra on sub-woofers. Do you have a budget sub you would suggest?
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post #12 of 32 Old 07-18-2013, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaMcEuin View Post

Ok, so being ready to get something and a few live phone calls with friends about which brand line to go with, I ordered the X4000. I had been looking at specs but ready to buy.

@duc135, I am fine with the extra on sub-woofers. Do you have a budget sub you would suggest?

What is "budget" to you?

Klipsch RF-62II, RC-500, RS-400, SVS PC12+,
Def Tech SC8000
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post #13 of 32 Old 07-18-2013, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, that is more random. I definitely can't spend $3000 on a subwoofer! LOL... but I did just spend $1104.99 on the receiver but I have been living with a piece of crap and most still say that my theater sounds better than a real theater. So, I bought the projector for $2000, the screen for $180, $100 for the blu-ray player, $45 for a 35ft 1.4 capable HDMI cable (cablewholesale rocks!) Heck, the carpet in the theater was the most expensive item at $2400. The HTD speakers are quite impressive despite the price. I paid roughly $460 delivered for 7 speakers. The Denon should make them sound 10 times better. But that won't change the sub issue. At this point, if I go with the HTD amplifier, that is $400 and I have all the wood to rebuild the sub cab. So "budget" would be $400 right now. But I still have to wait down the road for proper seats in which "budget" has a completely different meaning when trying to seat for 17....
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post #14 of 32 Old 07-18-2013, 03:58 PM
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For $400:

1. Are you willing to build it yourself? If so, does that budget include amps or do you already have one?
2. Do you have size constraints?
3. Do you have location constraints? I know you've already pulled speaker wire, but just thought I'd ask. Sub placement is room dependent and they places you ran the wires to may not be the best places for them.

I'm the wrong person to ask what a good sub budget is. I have so far built two 18" TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400, two 10" JL Audio 10W7 (think JL Audio Fathom F110), installed a 100A sub panel to power all the amps and am in the process of building four 15" Alpine SWR-1522D subs. That in addition to my 15" Revel B15a sub I originally purchased. That's 25KW of power to my 2300ft^3 room with seating for three. redface.gif
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post #15 of 32 Old 07-18-2013, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Well duc135, I build just about everything myself when I can. But if I can buy something that works, then I am fine with that if the price is right. I am searching for used subs now as well. Maybe I just need to see if you are ready to sell one of the 15" or 18" subs of yours LOL
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post #16 of 32 Old 07-18-2013, 10:00 PM
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Depending on your size restrictions, I would go with a pair of Dayton 15" drivers and build two boxes to start with. That's assuming that you already have a capable amp. The two Dayton drivers and a couple of sheets of MDF should be just over $400. You'll need a few odds and ends to finish up the box like connectors, paint and such, but those are minor expenses comparatively. You can always build one 18" in a vented box and build a second when funds are available. Stereo Integrity also makes some pretty good drivers for comparable prices to the Daytons. If I recall correctly, the SI models a little better in a smaller box than the Daytons do. Don't quote me on that though.

As for my 15"s, they are still a work in progress while the 18"s you would have to come pry them from my cold dead hands. Well, you and at least one other person as it weighs in at over 170lbs. each. I would consider selling my Revel B15a, but that would be well above your $400 budget and would require not only an electrical outlet, but also an RCA cable.
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post #17 of 32 Old 07-19-2013, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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So what software do you all use for determining size of enclosure and frequency response?
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post #18 of 32 Old 07-19-2013, 09:05 AM
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post #19 of 32 Old 07-24-2013, 03:11 AM - Thread Starter
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So, I got my Denon X4000 in yesterday! Hook it up and go through the basics the start Audysssey. One of the first things it does is the subwoofer test and it starts out by telling me it can't even hear it at half volume. So it goes to the next step to do a constant tone and have me raise the volume on the sub until it reaches 75 db. It maxes at 71 db LOL. Yes, I know I need a new sub. To balance everything it lowered most of the surrounds by 6 db! So I watched Thor, which would pierce ears with the bright crystal shattering sound played out at serveral places and it sounded better than ever. Clear but not piercing. However, I was running the sound at 80% and I figure that is because it did a 6 db cut on the surrounds. (well, I assume that is what it meant by having "Speaker - 6 db" and so forth down the list, that the "-" was not a column divider but a negative to the 6.) Anyway, the amp should be in today or tomorrow. I had a sub cabinet built already. Sealed and randomly chosen size from years ago. The speaker is the RFZ2412 (Rockford Fosgate Punch2 12"). http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/rftech/library/2001/5_Subwoofers/LIT11084_RFZsubwoofers_MAN.pdf is where the specs are listed. With Winisd I don't know exactly all the specs to fill out in the custom speaker options. But with what I did, it says I need a 27K cubic inch box. How much does the shape of the enclosure matter to the sound? Can I go longer than just the 30x48x18 and do something more narro and longer like in what would be something that sits behind a row of seats? I mean, that is a huge box. If I was looking in the 200watts range, what speaker would you suggest?
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post #20 of 32 Old 07-24-2013, 03:24 AM
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You would be better served posting any speaker related questions in the Speakers forum ...

http://www.avsforum.com/f/89/speakers


..... and any X4000 related questions in the "2013 Denon AVR-E/X Models" thread linked in my sig. Especially review posts #3-6 in that thread for more helpful setup and troubleshooting info.

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post #21 of 32 Old 07-24-2013, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaMcEuin View Post

So, I got my Denon X4000 in yesterday! Hook it up and go through the basics the start Audysssey. One of the first things it does is the subwoofer test and it starts out by telling me it can't even hear it at half volume. So it goes to the next step to do a constant tone and have me raise the volume on the sub until it reaches 75 db. It maxes at 71 db LOL. Yes, I know I need a new sub. To balance everything it lowered most of the surrounds by 6 db! So I watched Thor, which would pierce ears with the bright crystal shattering sound played out at serveral places and it sounded better than ever. Clear but not piercing. However, I was running the sound at 80% and I figure that is because it did a 6 db cut on the surrounds. (well, I assume that is what it meant by having "Speaker - 6 db" and so forth down the list, that the "-" was not a column divider but a negative to the 6.) Anyway, the amp should be in today or tomorrow. I had a sub cabinet built already. Sealed and randomly chosen size from years ago. The speaker is the RFZ2412 (Rockford Fosgate Punch2 12"). http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/rftech/library/2001/5_Subwoofers/LIT11084_RFZsubwoofers_MAN.pdf is where the specs are listed. With Winisd I don't know exactly all the specs to fill out in the custom speaker options. But with what I did, it says I need a 27K cubic inch box. How much does the shape of the enclosure matter to the sound? Can I go longer than just the 30x48x18 and do something more narro and longer like in what would be something that sits behind a row of seats? I mean, that is a huge box. If I was looking in the 200watts range, what speaker would you suggest?

Enclosure shape does not matter when it comes to subwoofers. That being said, your numbers don't add up. The dimensions you provided equates to ~12.7ft^3 but 27Kin^3 is ~15.6ft^3. Is this for a vented enclosure? It just seems pretty huge for a 12" driver. I don't have time to do the WinISD modeling right now so I'm just guessing. If you are building a vented enclosure, you need to make sure your amp has a high pass filter or you will need to get one. The filter needs to match the tuning of the enclosure to prevent the driver from dying a violent death trying to play frequencies below the tuning of the port. You may want to post over in the DIY forum to get more help on this.

As for Audyssey setup, it didn't lower your satellite trims to match the sub. It lowered them to a reference level. So when the volume indicator reads 0 you will be at reference volume at your primary seat.
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post #22 of 32 Old 07-24-2013, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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That being said, your numbers don't add up. .

That is what I was thinking. Haven't used the tool before and half of what it is asking for is not directly listed on RF's data sheet so maybe the missing data is the problem or my guessing where to stick things. So question then on the "reference" level. Do you think cutting the db's -6 for just about all but the sub and -1 for the sub is realistic then only to have to turn up the volume to 80% to enjoy the movie makes sense? Is that normal or am I missing something?
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post #23 of 32 Old 07-24-2013, 09:29 AM
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That is perfectly normal. Reference is 85dB from each individual speaker with peaks going up to 105dB. So if you're at 80% of reference that's only 68dB. Closer to about 71db - 74dB due to multiple speakers adding to the total sound level. 74dB is not at all that loud.
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post #24 of 32 Old 07-24-2013, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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That is perfectly normal. Reference is 85dB from each individual speaker with peaks going up to 105dB. So if you're at 80% of reference that's only 68dB. Closer to about 71db - 74dB due to multiple speakers adding to the total sound level. 74dB is not at all that loud.

But I guess that is my point, it isn't that loud. Should I be expecting to run this unit at 80 to 90 percent to get that in your face sound level when before I am usually running at 30 to 40 percent of the dial? I've only really had cheap receivers in the past but this just seems backwards on such a nice receiver.
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post #25 of 32 Old 07-24-2013, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so I hopped over to the Denon page again and read it and found the little buried portion where it says it does 125W @ 6 ohms instead of 8 ohms which turns out to be like 95W/channel at 8 ohms for speakers that are 100W RMS / 150 peak. I guess I was looking at the Onkyo which was listing at 135 and 145 @ 8 ohms and thought I was apples to apples but the marketing jerks changed it around. So am I now thinking that to match amp to speaker, I really need to either return and get something more powerful or get a buttload of 2 channel amps that can actually drive between 100w and 150w every day? I mean, I did provide enough power outlets and breakers when I built the theater specifically for this, but I was "hoping" to not have to do that with a unit that I thought was able to do it, except for a change in marketing...
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post #26 of 32 Old 07-24-2013, 10:35 AM
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What you were used to from cheapo receivers could be a possibility of several factors.

1. They had no calibration so there was no setting in relation to a reference level. It just played at a percentage of what it was capable of. So 40% was 40% of the power output. New receivers with calibration set the levels as a percentage relative to a reference sound level. For example, say old receiver A can push your speakers to 300dB (just pulling number out of my butt for explanation purposes here) at full power (100% on the volume dial). 40% of that would be 120dB. Still VERY loud. Now receiver B is set to reference levels which is only 85dB. Set the dial at 40% and now you only get 34dB.

2. 64dB from cheapo receiver may not sound the same as 64dB from a new high quality receiver. The cheapo receiver may be introducing a lot of distortion due to inadequate unclipped power.

3. The X4000 receiver has Audyssey MultEQ XT32. This does a lot to smooth out frequency response and correct speaker phase issues. Older receivers may seem louder at the same levels as the sound you hear could possibly be smeared with secondary reflections or out of phase signals reaching your ears. Muddy, boomy bass will sound much louder than clean flat bass.

You don't really need to be exact in matching the receiver with the speaker power handling specs. What is more important is the actual measured sensitivity (not just the manufacturer's claims) and the impedance numbers. I wouldn't worry too much about having to turn the volume dial to 80% as this is normal. I would only worry if it were at 100% and you still need to turn it up, you start hearing distortion at higher levels or your receiver goes into protect mode at high levels. If so, this may be more of a speaker issue than receiver. If the speakers are too small or sensitivity too low for your needs. Your HTDs say 89db, but doesn't say at what power level or distance. So best case scenario is that it is 89dB at 1W/1m. This means if you sit 2m from the speaker, you will only need ~64W/CH to achieve reference levels from them. The difference between 145W and 95W is less than 3dB so unless you were clipping the amps at high levels, I would be concerned about it.
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post #27 of 32 Old 07-24-2013, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so on one point, I a extremely frustated on principle with the Denon marketing team. Moving past that, So it sets it at a "reference level" of 75 db. I guess that means that they see 75 is some optimal point for what exactly? What if I prefer to go deaf watching movies and my favorite is 100 db or 120 db or whatever that would be, should that reference be different? And I guess that at the same time, while there are concerns about supplying adequate power for a subwoofer there is no concern for powering mid's as such to have them create the broad spectrum of sounds they produce?
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post #28 of 32 Old 07-24-2013, 01:09 PM
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First of all - "reference level" probably only has a meaning related to room calibration via Audyssey. Otherwise it means nothing.

This Denon would crush your old receiver in any power contest. Put any doubts you have about the receiver aside.

As for your sub - if you don't understand WinISD, don't use it. Speaker modeling software needs a base set of driver parameters. And without them - the results of modeling should not be trusted. Just use the recommendations that Fosgate makes. I strongly recommend you not try to build a vented system. You do not have the skill to build a proper vented box. A sealed system is much less sensitive to box volume changes. That Fosgate woofer, which is really a car audio woofer, has a very high Qts spec, which typically means it is better suited for a closed box. The shape of the box is not so important - but make it sturdy and airtight. No air leaks.

What amp did you buy for the sub?
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post #29 of 32 Old 07-24-2013, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by PapaMcEuin View Post

Ok, so on one point, I a extremely frustated on principle with the Denon marketing team.

I'm not sure why you are upset with Denon marketers. Everything I've seen on their website and in the manual itself states that the receiver is rated for 125W/CH @8ohms and 165W/CH @6ohms. Where are you getting your numbers from? Now those are claimed specs and they do not mention if that's in stereo mode or all channels driven. What the true numbers are is best left to those with the equipment to test it. I can guarantee that it won't be doing a full 125W/CH at any impedance though. The maximum power draw of the unit is 670W. That equates to 95W/CH if the rest of the receiver doesn't use any of that power and that's not likely. With all channels driven I'd be surprised if they can do 80W/CH. That being said, those numbers are based on sine wave testing. Rarely will you you see all channel being driven simultaneously so the numbers Denon states are most likely derived from what they call program or real life material.
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Originally Posted by PapaMcEuin View Post

So it sets it at a "reference level" of 75 db. I guess that means that they see 75 is some optimal point for what exactly? What if I prefer to go deaf watching movies and my favorite is 100 db or 120 db or whatever that would be, should that reference be different?

Reference is the levels set by THX which is 85dB at the primary listening position with 20dB headroom for peaks (30dB in the case of the LFE channel) when the master volume on the receiver reads "0". If you want to listen above those levels there is nothing from preventing you from turning the volume knob to max. The calibration does not limit you an how loud you can listen. Only that when your receiver's master volume reads "0" that you are listening to the movie at reference sound levels. Nothing more, nothing less. You can continue to turn the volume up beyond that should you choose, but I don't know very many people that do that and if they do, it's not very often.
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And I guess that at the same time, while there are concerns about supplying adequate power for a subwoofer there is no concern for powering mid's as such to have them create the broad spectrum of sounds they produce?

More often than not, the speakers or your ears will give out before your amps ability to go to reference levels will. As my mentioned earlier, if your speaker manufacturer's claims on their speakers specs are correct, you would only need 64W/CH to achieve reference level sound out of them. Will the speakers be able to hit reference level without compression or distortion? That's a whole other issue, but the Denon will not be the limiter here.

The reason power to subs are more of an issue is because the lower the frequency the more power it takes to produce it. Sound is all about moving air. The lower the frequency, the more air that needs to be moved. That's why all other things being equal, the bigger the cone's surface area the more air it can moves, thus the more capable it is at producing the lower frequencies so long as the motor is powerful enough to move the massive cones.

http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-technology/thx-reference-level/

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Originally Posted by hoffdano View Post

First of all - "reference level" probably only has a meaning related to room calibration via Audyssey. Otherwise it means nothing.

ARC/Audyssey/MCACC/Trinnov/YPAO calibrate to the THX reference of 85dB at the primary listening position with 20dB headroom for peaks (30dB in the case of the LFE channel) when the master volume on the receiver reads "0" so no, it does not mean nothing. Sound mixers and engineers create movie audio tracks according to this reference so that when you have a capable system, and set the volume to "0" you are listening to the audio at the same levels as the way they had intended.

The reason for a reference is so that you have something to compare your calibration to if there was no reference point then there would not be a need for calibration. You would only need to plug everything in, turn everything on and play whatever it is you want to play and just adjust the volume up and down. Not only that, but it reduces the likelihood of you having to adjust the master volume every time you put in another movie. Unfortunately, music has no such reference so one CD will be loud as heck while another CD is barely audible at the same master volume level.
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post #30 of 32 Old 07-24-2013, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks duc for helping me catch up with this. Now this is crazy. I pulled up a link from one of the forum posts and it went to something that was 125@6ohm. Now I can't find it. So I guess I have to retract those statements. On the WinISD, is there a place I can go to better understand the variables it is trying to pull together? Its been 20 years since I took accoustical physics back in college and sold the book since then. Unlike some, just because I don't do something now, I don't mind learning a new skill in the process. I have a slapped together cabinet right now but have plenty of wood to build another 2 or 3. And I agree that those numbers just didn't seem right. Any pointers here on what to read up on to decifier what the mfg gives and what is missing to determine size needed to do this.
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