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post #1 of 93 Old 07-18-2013, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone know where I can demo the emotiva amps. I tried researching if there are retailers around the san antonio area but couldn't find anything. Is emotiva an online thing only?

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post #2 of 93 Old 07-18-2013, 05:58 PM
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Online only. You may have more luck finding a local owner in the regional forums here or at Emotiva's forum.

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post #3 of 93 Old 07-18-2013, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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that kind of sucks. dont really want to buy something without demoing. does anyone else recommend any other amps that i can demo at a retailer for around the price range of the emotiva or would it be worth the gamble of buying the emotiva without demoing. i know theres a lot of good reputation on the emotiva amps but kind of hard just buying something off what people say and not experiencing first hand

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post #4 of 93 Old 07-18-2013, 08:42 PM
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They have a demo period with their amps that allows you to audition in home with no penalty (you'll have to look if they provide free return shipping, they ship to you free though). Hard to demo an amp at a dealer given that it isn't your room or setup so what exactly are you hearing/demoing other than their full setup??

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post #5 of 93 Old 07-18-2013, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

They have a demo period with their amps that allows you to audition in home with no penalty (you'll have to look if they provide free return shipping, they ship to you free though). Hard to demo an amp at a dealer given that it isn't your room or setup so what exactly are you hearing/demoing other than their full setup??

What would you "demo" from an amp?
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post #6 of 93 Old 07-19-2013, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by j0hnnyyyy View Post

that kind of sucks. dont really want to buy something without demoing. does anyone else recommend any other amps that i can demo at a retailer for around the price range of the emotiva or would it be worth the gamble of buying the emotiva without demoing. i know theres a lot of good reputation on the emotiva amps but kind of hard just buying something off what people say and not experiencing first hand
No, not really. There's no need to demo a power amp. You're only listening to how the speakers play the room, how the room plays the subs, and (to a far lesser extent) how the processor implements any DSP and equalisation (eg Audyssey). The amp will either work properly or it'll be busted. wink.gif

You've got a new reasonably powerful AVR Johnny... what are you hoping to achieve with the Emo?
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post #7 of 93 Old 07-19-2013, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
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just a cleaner sound i guess at higher volumes. ive also read and heard different amps sound different and im looking for a good amp that i can do 50/50 music and movies. i did demo the peachtree nova and mcintosh stereo amps. the mcintosh was 100 watt per channel and nova at 125 the mcintosh sounded better than the nova on bw 683, cm9, and 804

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post #8 of 93 Old 07-20-2013, 08:32 PM
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Which Emo amp are you after?

Have you ever owned a Power Amp?
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post #9 of 93 Old 07-20-2013, 09:50 PM
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As far as power amps go, I don't think you'll find cheaper amps than Emotiva if you want Class A/B. Made in China, but they're great! I own a couple of Emotiva amps and am a fan of them, mainly because of their low prices. I wouldn't be able to afford brand new amps if it wasn't for Emotiva. If you look around for used ones, you'll be able to find good deals on them especially since the gen 2 XPA amps just came out. They have a transferable warranty and you can resell them without much loss if any.

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post #10 of 93 Old 07-20-2013, 11:32 PM - Thread Starter
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ive never owned any power amp will the marantz mm 7055 perform better than lets say the xpa-5 ?

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post #11 of 93 Old 07-21-2013, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by j0hnnyyyy View Post

ive never owned any power amp will the marantz mm 7055 perform better than lets say the xpa-5 ?

sonically, assuming the marantz and emo were both functioning properly there should be no discernible difference.

the emo, having more power could get a tad louder before it sounds like crap...though your ears would probably suffer damage first.
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post #12 of 93 Old 07-21-2013, 12:19 AM - Thread Starter
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okay truthfully i dont think i really need a power amp but i can get the marantz for a really good price thats why i was considering the marantz but i see the emo has more power. i barely turn up my avr now max volume i go is like 65% on movies and even less on music. i think 125 watts is what my avr is rated at 8 0hm all channel driven. i know there is a bi amp capability but ive read about the bi amp myth or the different types of bi amps. i dont know if in my situation with my setup if bi amp will benefit me

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post #13 of 93 Old 07-21-2013, 02:44 AM
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That would actually be with only 2CH driven as is the case with all Denon models; however, as others have noted, and based on your volume level requirements, the additional amplification would likely be of no benefit to you as neither would using the passive bi-amp feature. You would be better served putting your money towards a center speaker, room treatments, or adding another sub for smoother bass.
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post #14 of 93 Old 07-21-2013, 03:01 AM
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Edit: ^^^ What he said! JD beat me to it. Consider this a +1. smile.gif

The Denon X4000 is rated 125W continuous into an 8Ω load with 2 channels driven, which is consistent with how most AVR's are rated. If the Denon can cleanly drive your speakers to your preferred maximum volume level, the addition of a power amp (Emotiva or otherwise) will not make any discernible difference to the sound of your system. A maximum volume of 65% doesn't mean much to others. Have you run the Audyssey set-up on the Denon? If so, toggle the master volume display setting to "Relative" or similar in the menu, which will show up as negative dB number. Let us know what those numbers are for your preferred maximum volumes for movies and music. My guess is movies will be around -17dB.
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post #15 of 93 Old 07-21-2013, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j0hnnyyyy View Post

i know there is a bi amp capability but ive read about the bi amp myth or the different types of bi amps. i dont know if in my situation with my setup if bi amp will benefit me

Here's a great post that discusses passive bi-amping.
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post #16 of 93 Old 07-21-2013, 07:51 AM - Thread Starter
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im guessing you want me to change the volume to db reading on receiver, the steps were labeled a little different then what you guided me on the receiver but on music ill listen about -27db and movies a little bit louder it sucks because i live in an apartment and i use to blast my music around -15db and crazy neighbor almost came down breaking my door yelling turn my subwoofer off. so now i have to listen at a moderate sound or turn subwoofer off.

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post #17 of 93 Old 07-21-2013, 08:02 AM
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^^
FYI .. your new X4000 features Audyssey LFC (p. 158 OM) which is designed specifically for an apartment dweller to reduce the bass impact going through the walls. smile.gif
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post #18 of 93 Old 07-21-2013, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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im going to check it out right now thanks for the tip. much appreciated!!!

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post #19 of 93 Old 07-21-2013, 08:15 AM
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http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/audyssey-lfc
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post #20 of 93 Old 07-21-2013, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks a lot for the tip i turned the lfc on to 1. going any higher than 1 there was not enough bass for me but i can tell a difference from having it on or off. of course i would like to have it off but i have to compensate with the neighbors and keep a happy medium

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post #21 of 93 Old 07-22-2013, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j0hnnyyyy View Post

im guessing you want me to change the volume to db reading on receiver, the steps were labeled a little different then what you guided me on the receiver but on music ill listen about -27db and movies a little bit louder it sucks because i live in an apartment and i use to blast my music around -15db and crazy neighbor almost came down breaking my door yelling turn my subwoofer off. so now i have to listen at a moderate sound or turn subwoofer off.

Johnny, I reckon you don't need an amp. Here's why...
Let's say the loudest you generally listen to movies and music is at master volume -15dB, but let's adopt MV -10dB as the loudest you'll ever get.

Now, SMPTE/THX/Dolby cinema reference calibration (which Audyssey adopts) stipulates that a -20dBFS input signal is to produce 85dBSPL at the listening position (LP) for each main channel. This 20dB of "digital headroom" means that a peak output level of 105dBSPL at the LP for each main channel is theoretically possible (ie. with a 0dBFS input signal).

A system properly calibrated by Audyssey (and other auto set-up routines) has a total electro-acoustic gain set up to play at this reference level (-20dBFS --> 85dBSPL) when the MV indicates 0dB. Are you with me so far? So, at our maximum of MV -10dB (10dB below reference), the theoretical peak SPL expected to be produced at your LP is 95dBSPL (105dBSPL - 10).

Now, in typical residential rooms, sound pressure drops off at around 3 to 4dB each time you double the distance from the source (speaker). If I assume a longish 4m distance from your speakers to your LP and an average of 3.5dBSPL drop off per doubling of distance, you get a total drop off of 7dBSPL. This means that your B&W's will need to play at 102dBSPL at 1m distance to produce those 95dBSPL peaks at your LP.

Your B&W mains have a sensitivity of 90dBSPL with 1 Watt at 1m. So they require 12dB of gain from the amp to play those 102dBSPL peaks. Now, a doubling of input power from the amp is required for each 3dB increase in SPL, so 12dB of gain on 1 watt requires 16 watts. That's right - the maximum amplifier power required to produce program peaks at MV -10dB at a 4m listening distance, with your speakers is 16 watts. If you cranked it up to MV -5dB (perceived as twice as loud as MV -15dB), 50 watts would be required to produce 107dBSPL program peaks. If you turn it down to your indicated maximum of MV -15dB, a mere 5 watts is being called upon to produce 97dBSPL peaks. In addition, all power requirements will be marginally reduced if your listening distance is less than the assumed 4m.

These power figures are for program peaks and are still well below the continuous power rating of the Denon X4000. It means that in your current situation at your preferred maximum levels, a power amp will make zero discernible difference and is not needed.

If you've got cash burning a hole in your pocket, spend it where you can make real sonic improvements: speakers and subs.
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post #22 of 93 Old 07-22-2013, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post

Johnny, I reckon you don't need an amp. Here's why...
Let's say the loudest you generally listen to movies and music is at master volume -15dB, but let's adopt MV -10dB as the loudest you'll ever get.

Now, SMPTE/THX/Dolby cinema reference calibration (which Audyssey adopts) stipulates that a -20dBFS input signal is to produce 85dBSPL at the listening position (LP) for each main channel. This 20dB of "digital headroom" means that a peak output level of 105dBSPL at the LP for each main channel is theoretically possible (ie. with a 0dBFS input signal).

A system properly calibrated by Audyssey (and other auto set-up routines) has a total electro-acoustic gain set up to play at this reference level (-20dBFS --> 85dBSPL) when the MV indicates 0dB. Are you with me so far? So, at our maximum of MV -10dB (10dB below reference), the theoretical peak SPL expected to be produced at your LP is 95dBSPL (105dBSPL - 10).

Now, in typical residential rooms, sound pressure drops off at around 3 to 4dB each time you double the distance from the source (speaker). If I assume a longish 4m distance from your speakers to your LP and an average of 3.5dBSPL drop off per doubling of distance, you get a total drop off of 7dBSPL. This means that your B&W's will need to play at 102dBSPL at 1m distance to produce those 95dBSPL peaks at your LP.

Your B&W mains have a sensitivity of 90dBSPL with 1 Watt at 1m. So they require 12dB of gain from the amp to play those 102dBSPL peaks. Now, a doubling of input power from the amp is required for each 3dB increase in SPL, so 12dB of gain on 1 watt requires 16 watts. That's right - the maximum amplifier power required to produce program peaks at MV -10dB at a 4m listening distance, with your speakers is 16 watts. If you cranked it up to MV -5dB (perceived as twice as loud as MV -15dB), 50 watts would be required to produce 107dBSPL program peaks. If you turn it down to your indicated maximum of MV -15dB, a mere 5 watts is being called upon to produce 97dBSPL peaks. In addition, all power requirements will be marginally reduced if your listening distance is less than the assumed 4m.

These power figures are for program peaks and are still well below the continuous power rating of the Denon X4000. It means that in your current situation at your preferred maximum levels, a power amp will make zero discernible difference and is not needed.

If you've got cash burning a hole in your pocket, spend it where you can make real sonic improvements: speakers and subs.

GIEGAR,

Excellent post smile.gif! Anyone that is thinking of adding an external amp to their AVR should you this as an example to see if they really need that amp. Of course one would have to take in consideration their speakers and AVR specs. I agree 100% that the OP's money would be better spent on speaker or sub upgrades.

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post #23 of 93 Old 07-22-2013, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks for the reply giegear

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post #24 of 93 Old 07-22-2013, 12:01 PM
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GIEGAR,

Excellent post smile.gif! Anyone that is thinking of adding an external amp to their AVR should you this as an example to see if they really need that amp. Of course one would have to take in consideration their speakers and AVR specs. I agree 100% that the OP's money would be better spent on speaker or sub upgrades.

Bill

Do you plan to take GEIGAR's advice and sell your amps and upgrade another component? smile.gif
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post #25 of 93 Old 07-22-2013, 02:04 PM
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Do you plan to take GEIGAR's advice and sell your amps and upgrade another component? smile.gif

Mud,

Nope smile.gif. I had the amp before buying the 4311 which I'm using as a prepro. If I didn't already have the amp and was thinking of it I would most likely not buy one due to GIEGAR's "sound" advice. Do you think GEIGAR's advice is helpful? I feel it will save some from buying an external amp that they do not need. To each his own I guess smile.gif.

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post #26 of 93 Old 07-22-2013, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Mud,

Nope smile.gif. I had the amp before buying the 4311 which I'm using as a prepro. If I didn't already have the amp and was thinking of it I would most likely not buy one due to GIEGAR's "sound" advice. Do you think GEIGAR's advice is helpful? I feel it will save some from buying an external amp that they do not need. To each his own I guess smile.gif.

Bill

Bill, I think the best way to determine if an amp is needed is to try one. I have not listened to the newer Denon 4000. When the B&W 683 was initially introduced I demoed them with a Denon AVR that was the highest 38xx series (unsure of exact model). The speakers became very congested at higher volumes. This was most noticeable with movies or music other than simple acoustic guitar music. Sensitivity is not the only thing that taxes an amp.

Probably most do not need an amp and the $ could be better spent elsewhere. Still, unless you try you will never know for sure.

I take all recommendations with a grain of salt because they usually are just re quoted and the person quoting has not actually tried their recommendation. Few would recommend a high powered amp with Klipsch RF7. My personal experience proves otherwise to me.

I will stick with my UMC-200 and XPA5. Try it and your Denon will be on Ebay.smile.gifsmile.gif
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post #27 of 93 Old 07-22-2013, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

GIEGAR,

Excellent post smile.gif! Anyone that is thinking of adding an external amp to their AVR should you this as an example to see if they really need that amp. Of course one would have to take in consideration their speakers and AVR specs. I agree 100% that the OP's money would be better spent on speaker or sub upgrades.

Bill

Well I try! wink.gif

Thanks Bill, I do appreciate the encouragement. I had a feeling that Johnny was here to learn, so I thought it was worth getting into the nuts 'n' bolts for him.

As usual, nice crossing paths with you again Bill.
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post #28 of 93 Old 07-22-2013, 07:01 PM
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thanks for the reply giegear

No worries Johnny, I hope it helped. It's your thread, so if anything's unclear about that, get back to us and we'll see if we can explain it better.

One thing I skimmed over a bit was the dB : power relationship. As I mentioned, a 3dB increase requires power to be increased by a factor of 2 (well 1.9953 actually!), but I also should mention that a 10dB increase requires power to be increased by a factor of 10. This is because the dB is a logarithmic unit. Using these two relationships you can work out the theoretical power required to play a speaker of given sensitivity to a particular SPL.

Using your B&W's published 90dBSPL/watt/m, the progression is below. You can see from this how power requirements begin to escalate above 100 watts as the dB's logarithmic nature kicks in. You can also see how important the speaker's (genuine) sensitivity spec is and why you should carefully scrutinise the manufacturer's spec sheet &/or look for independent testing.

Power(w) | dBSPL @ 1m
.. 1 | 90
.. 2 | 93
.. 4 | 96
.. 5 | 97 (-3 from 10w)
.. 8 | 99
. 10 | 100 (10x)
. 16 | 102
. 20 | 103
. 32 | 105
. 40 | 106
. 50 | 107
. 64 | 108
. 80 | 109
100 | 110
128 | 111
160 | 112
200 | 113
256 | 114
320 | 115
400 | 116
500 | 117
etc, etc...

Or use a calculator like this: http://www.crownaudio.com/db-power.htm (Insert 1 in Power A and the required gain in dB; Power B will be calculated.)
.
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post #29 of 93 Old 07-22-2013, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post

No worries Johnny, I hope it helped. It's your thread, so if anything's unclear about that, get back to us and we'll see if we can explain it better.

One thing I skimmed over a bit was the dB : power relationship. As I mentioned, a 3dB increase requires power to be increased by a factor of 2 (well 1.9953 actually!), but I also should mention that a 10dB increase requires power to be increased by a factor of 10. This is because the dB is a logarithmic unit. Using these two relationships you can work out the theoretical power required to play a speaker of given sensitivity to a particular SPL.

Using your B&W's published 90dBSPL/watt/m, the progression is below. You can see from this how power requirements begin to escalate above 100 watts as the dB's logarithmic nature kicks in. You can also see how important the speaker's (genuine) sensitivity spec is and why you should carefully scrutinise the manufacturer's spec sheet &/or look for independent testing.

Power(w) | dBSPL
.. 1 | 90
.. 2 | 93
.. 4 | 96
.. 5 | 97 (-3 from 10w)
.. 8 | 99
. 10 | 100 (10x)
. 16 | 102
. 20 | 103
. 32 | 105
. 40 | 106
. 50 | 107
. 64 | 108
. 80 | 109
100 | 110
128 | 111
160 | 112
200 | 113
256 | 114
320 | 115
400 | 116
500 | 117
etc, etc...

Or use a calculator like this: http://www.crownaudio.com/db-power.htm (Insert 1 in Power A and the required gain in dB; Power B will be calculated.)

These specs quoted from a mag review.

Model 683
Minimum impedance: 3.5Ω at 100Hz
Nominal impedance: 6Ω (below 6Ω from 78Hz to 900Hz)
Port tuning: 30Hz with the port open; 43Hz with the port fully blocked with the supplied foam "bungs"
Effective bass extension (-10dB): 29Hz (port open)
Sensitivity: 86dB/2.83V/m

I believe your scale is for 1m. Using 86 db as above one would need much more power to achieve a 100 db at 1m.
This calculator does not give same results as you list: http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

A big question. Whose specs are correct? B&W or the mag. biggrin.gif
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post #30 of 93 Old 07-22-2013, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

I will stick with my UMC-200 and XPA5. Try it and your Denon will be on Ebay.smile.gifsmile.gif

That is good that you are happy with the UMC-200 and the XPA-5 smile.gif. I owned the UMC-1 and it wasn't for me. From what I have read on the Lounge those that owned both the UMC-1 and the UMC-200 say there is no noticeable difference in SQ. I'm very happy with the 4311 so there is no need to try the UMC-200. Been there and done that smile.gif.

Bill

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