Refurbished Denon AVR-1713 for $288 or Demo Unit Denon AVR-E300 for $200??? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 07-19-2013, 05:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I just purchased a Denon AVR-E300 demo unit from my local Fry's for $214 (with tax) but noticed that accessories for less is selling refurbished Denon AVR-1713 for $288 including shipping and tax. I will be using the receiver in a 3.1 setup that includes the Pioneer SP-FS52, Pioneer SP-C22 and the Pioneer SW-MK2. I have a few questions that hopefully someone can answer:

Does the sound quality performance advantage (if any) of the AVR-1713 worth the $74 difference?

Has anyone had bad luck with any refurbished Denon receivers?

Is the difference between Audyssey MultiEQ (which the E300 has) and MultiEQXT (which the 1713 has) a night and day difference worth the $74 difference? (especially for a 3.1 setup)

I have 30 days to return the E300 in case I change my mind. Just want to make sure I end up with the best bang for my buck in regards to sound quality (don't care about extra features).

Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 26 Old 07-19-2013, 05:36 PM
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Why not give the E300 a tryout? The difference between Multeq and the XT flavor isn't 'night and day' but IMO none of the room correction software versions from Audyssey or any other manufacturer is.

When all else fails - RTFM!

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post #3 of 26 Old 07-19-2013, 05:48 PM
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The two biggest advantagea of the 1713 over the E300 are

1. Audyssey MultEQ XT vs MultEQ
2. Real speaker terminals vs push terminals.


I use banana plugs with all my speakers so the terminals on the E300 would really bother me. I was at my local Fry's yesterday and they had the E300 on sale for $199 new. So if the speaker terminals don't bother you then it probably is a pretty good receiver.

Basically the equivalent of last years 1613.

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post #4 of 26 Old 07-19-2013, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

The two biggest advantagea of the 1713 over the E300 are

1. Audyssey MultEQ XT vs MultEQ
2. Real speaker terminals vs push terminals.


I use banana plugs with all my speakers so the terminals on the E300 would really bother me. I was at my local Fry's yesterday and they had the E300 on sale for $199 new. So if the speaker terminals don't bother you then it probably is a pretty good receiver.

Basically the equivalent of last years 1613.

That's exactly where I purchased the demo unit E300. They had to honor last weeks ad since the $199 price tag was still on display for the E300. Unfortunately, they only had the floor model in stock.

The speaker terminals don't bother me and I don't care about any features except sound quality. So that narrows things down to MultiEQ vs MUltiEQ XT. Is the sound quality difference between the two worth the $74 price difference?
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post #5 of 26 Old 07-19-2013, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post

That's exactly where I purchased the demo unit E300. They had to honor last weeks ad since the $199 price tag was still on display for the E300. Unfortunately, they only had the floor model in stock.

The speaker terminals don't bother me and I don't care about any features except sound quality. So that narrows things down to MultiEQ vs MUltiEQ XT. Is the sound quality difference between the two worth the $74 price difference?

There is another difference: the warranty.

The open box unit should still come with a 2 year warranty versus the 1 year warranty for the refurbished unit.

Plus, more credit cards will extend the warranty on the new unit versus refurbished.
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post #6 of 26 Old 07-19-2013, 08:17 PM
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Flavors of MultEQ

Audyssey room correction technology comes in four solutions: MultEQ XT32, MultEQ XT, MultEQ and 2EQ. While they are all built on the same core science, each is designed to operate within the constraints of the available DSP processing power.

MultEQ XT32
Our newest and most accurate room correction solution with more than ten thousand individual control points allowing finer details of the room’s problems to be captured and corrected. The ultra high resolution filters are applied to all channels including the subwoofers, with the most obvious benefit being heard in the low frequency range where correction is needed the most.

MultEQ XT
Our advanced resolution room correction solution with high resolution equalization filters for satellites and subwoofers. Most products with MultEQ XT are installer-ready and can be calibrated by an Audyssey Registered Installer to provide even higher performance for even the most demanding large or odd-shaped rooms.

MultEQ
Our standard resolution room correction solution that uses mid-level resolution filters for satellites and subwoofers.

2EQ
Our basic resolution room correction solution that uses basic resolution filters for the satellites, but does not apply a filter to the subwoofers.

When all else fails - RTFM!

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post #7 of 26 Old 07-19-2013, 09:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 View Post

Flavors of MultEQ

Audyssey room correction technology comes in four solutions: MultEQ XT32, MultEQ XT, MultEQ and 2EQ. While they are all built on the same core science, each is designed to operate within the constraints of the available DSP processing power.

MultEQ XT32
Our newest and most accurate room correction solution with more than ten thousand individual control points allowing finer details of the room’s problems to be captured and corrected. The ultra high resolution filters are applied to all channels including the subwoofers, with the most obvious benefit being heard in the low frequency range where correction is needed the most.

MultEQ XT
Our advanced resolution room correction solution with high resolution equalization filters for satellites and subwoofers. Most products with MultEQ XT are installer-ready and can be calibrated by an Audyssey Registered Installer to provide even higher performance for even the most demanding large or odd-shaped rooms.

MultEQ
Our standard resolution room correction solution that uses mid-level resolution filters for satellites and subwoofers.

2EQ
Our basic resolution room correction solution that uses basic resolution filters for the satellites, but does not apply a filter to the subwoofers.

i had already read that on audysseys website. too bad it doesnt tell me if the upgrade from multieq to multieq xt is worth 75 bucks.
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post #8 of 26 Old 07-20-2013, 03:03 AM
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The difference in audio fidelity going from MultEQ --> XT is not nearly as significant as going from XT --> XT32, although there should still be some improvement. If you've never experienced either one with your current setup and you don't need the Zone 2 pre-outs on the 1713, then you may be better served keeping the E300 with the longer warranty and putting the savings into adding a couple of side surround speakers or perhaps adding another subwoofer using a RCA "Y" splitter cable.

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post #9 of 26 Old 07-20-2013, 03:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The difference in audio fidelity going from MultEQ --> XT is not nearly as significant as going from XT --> XT32, although there should still be some improvement. If you've never experienced either one with your current setup and you don't need the Zone 2 pre-outs on the 1713, then you may be better served keeping the E300 with the longer warranty and putting the savings into adding a couple of side surround speakers or perhaps adding another subwoofer using a RCA "Y" splitter cable.

Thanks for the input. As I was setting up the E300 floor unit i purchased, I realized that they did not include the calibration mic. A quick ebay search showed that the mic will set me back 25 bucks, which would close the gap between the e300 and 1713 to only 50 bucks. Im guessing its a no brainer at this point. 1713 it is.
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post #10 of 26 Old 07-20-2013, 03:57 AM
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Also check with your credit card issuer as they may add an additional year of warranty even to a refurbished item ... Amex will for sure although as AC4L does not accept Amex, you would have to use Pay Pal with an Amex card.

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post #11 of 26 Old 07-20-2013, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Also check with your credit card issuer as they may add an additional year of warranty even to a refurbished item ... Amex will for sure although as AC4L does not accept Amex, you would have to use Pay Pal with an Amex card.

I don't know if using Amex through PayPal qualifies since the actual payment is via PayPal.

Now my Discover card does that, I called and confirmed that it does add warranty to a manufacturer's warranty, even if it is refurbished.
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post #12 of 26 Old 07-20-2013, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post

Thanks for the input. As I was setting up the E300 floor unit i purchased, I realized that they did not include the calibration mic. A quick ebay search showed that the mic will set me back 25 bucks, which would close the gap between the e300 and 1713 to only 50 bucks. Im guessing its a no brainer at this point. 1713 it is.

You could also check with them to see if they have the mic laying around in the store or if they will give you a good price break.

But otherwise, that does make the price difference much smaller.
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post #13 of 26 Old 07-20-2013, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bladerunner6 View Post

I don't know if using Amex through PayPal qualifies since the actual payment is via PayPal.

Now my Discover card does that, I called and confirmed that it does add warranty to a manufacturer's warranty, even if it is refurbished.

So every electronics purchase I make with my discover card automatically gets an additional year of warranty at no charge? how do I go about this? Is there a form I need to fill? Does discover send you any paperwork to confirm the extended warranty?
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post #14 of 26 Old 07-20-2013, 05:38 PM
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^^
I don't know how Discover works, but with Amex and MC/Visa there are exclusions that apply so you would have to call Discover to confirm how the plan works. With my Amex and Visa cards, if the purchase if fairly small (<$200) they have issued the credit to my card immediately, no questions asked rather than having to deal with getting the item repaired, whereas if more expensive they have asked for additional paperwork and suggested repair facilities.

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post #15 of 26 Old 07-20-2013, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladerunner6 View Post

I don't know if using Amex through PayPal qualifies since the actual payment is via PayPal.

Now my Discover card does that, I called and confirmed that it does add warranty to a manufacturer's warranty, even if it is refurbished.

As long as the Amex purchase is from an actual merchant (vice an individual) the 1 year additional extended warranty would still apply regardless of whether new in box or refurb or using PayPal, so then yes, a purchase from AC4L using an Amex card will indeed qualify for the additional 1 year warranty.

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post #16 of 26 Old 07-20-2013, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post

So every electronics purchase I make with my discover card automatically gets an additional year of warranty at no charge? how do I go about this? Is there a form I need to fill? Does discover send you any paperwork to confirm the extended warranty?

Call 1-800-Discover for more info.

It has to be a manufacturer's warranty.

So if you buy a refurb that has a reseller refurbing it, you are not covered.

https://www.discover.com/credit-cards/member-benefits/extended-warranty.html
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post #17 of 26 Old 07-20-2013, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

As long as the Amex purchase is from an actual merchant (vice an individual) the 1 year additional extended warranty would still apply regardless of whether new in box or refurb or using PayPal, so then yes, a purchase from AC4L using an Amex card will indeed qualify for the additional 1 year warranty.

I did some research on this and you are right, good catch!smile.gif
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post #18 of 26 Old 07-21-2013, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the feedback guys. I was unaware the certain credit cards added an extended warranty to almost any purchase. I called discover and they do not offer it for refurbished products. Visa however does. Now that the e300 is out of the equation, my two final choices are the avr-1712 and the avr-1713 both refurbs. Just by looking at the specs, it seems like the 1712 is a better buy for audio quality, since it pumps out 90 watts per channel (1713 pumps out 80) and is 7.1 (1713 is 5.1). It looks like denon added more features (networking, airplay, usb port) to the 1713 but made sacrifices in the audio department, which is what really matters.

Airplay and networking are not a big deal to me since all my other devices are networked. However, the 1713s usb port seems very convenient.
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post #19 of 26 Old 07-21-2013, 02:28 PM
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^^
As a networking model, the 1713 could be controlled using a smart phone from anywhere in the house that has access to your home network. Also the 1713 has Zone 2 pre-outs should you ever want to add additional speakers in another room. As as far as power goes, the 10W difference won't even be noticeable .. in fact even a difference of 30W would unlikely to be noticeable. The 1713 also allows you to SAVE the config file to a PC so you don't have to rerun Audyssey if you need to reset the microprocessor. The only real reason to choose the 1712 would be if you had to have a 7.1 setup in your main zone.

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post #20 of 26 Old 07-21-2013, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladerunner6 View Post

Call 1-800-Discover for more info.

It has to be a manufacturer's warranty.

So if you buy a refurb that has a reseller refurbing it, you are not covered.

https://www.discover.com/credit-cards/member-benefits/extended-warranty.html

All refurbs are refurbed by Denon.

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post #21 of 26 Old 07-21-2013, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
As a networking model, the 1713 could be controlled using a smart phone from anywhere in the house that has access to your home network. Also the 1713 has Zone 2 pre-outs should you ever want to add additional speakers in another room. As as far as power goes, the 10W difference won't even be noticeable .. in fact even a difference of 30W would unlikely to be noticeable. The 1713 also allows you to SAVE the config file to a PC so you don't have to rerun Audyssey if you need to reset the microprocessor. The only real reason to choose the 1712 would be if you had to have a 7.1 setup in your main zone.

Good points. How about the signal to noise ratio difference between the two. Its 100db on the 1712 and 98db on the 1713. in the db world, thats almost about a 75% difference.
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post #22 of 26 Old 07-21-2013, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
As a networking model, the 1713 could be controlled using a smart phone from anywhere in the house that has access to your home network. Also the 1713 has Zone 2 pre-outs should you ever want to add additional speakers in another room. As as far as power goes, the 10W difference won't even be noticeable .. in fact even a difference of 30W would unlikely to be noticeable. The 1713 also allows you to SAVE the config file to a PC so you don't have to rerun Audyssey if you need to reset the microprocessor. The only real reason to choose the 1712 would be if you had to have a 7.1 setup in your main zone.

Good points. How about the signal to noise ratio difference between the two. Its 100db on the 1712 and 98db on the 1713. in the db world, thats almost about a 75% difference.

????

It is a 2 dB differeence which is minimal when you are talking about noise that is already about 100 dB down.

Noise that is about 100 dB is inaudible. Any distortion that is about 100 dB down is inaudible.

The background noise in a exceedingly clean recording is rarely more than 80 dB below peak levels, which completely swamps anything that is about 100 dB down.
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post

Thanks for all the feedback guys. I was unaware the certain credit cards added an extended warranty to almost any purchase. I called discover and they do not offer it for refurbished products. Visa however does. Now that the e300 is out of the equation, my two final choices are the avr-1712 and the avr-1713 both refurbs. Just by looking at the specs, it seems like the 1712 is a better buy for audio quality, since it pumps out 90 watts per channel (1713 pumps out 80) and is 7.1 (1713 is 5.1). It looks like denon added more features (networking, airplay, usb port) to the 1713 but made sacrifices in the audio department, which is what really matters.

Airplay and networking are not a big deal to me since all my other devices are networked. However, the 1713s usb port seems very convenient.

When I talked to Discover, I asked them explicitly about refurbished products and they said yes, if it was a manufacturer's warranty.

I might investigate why you and I got different answers.
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post #24 of 26 Old 07-21-2013, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bladerunner6 View Post

When I talked to Discover, I asked them explicitly about refurbished products and they said yes, if it was a manufacturer's warranty.

I might investigate why you and I got different answers.

The discover representative i spoke to did not hesitate with her answer when i asked about refurbished product coverage. my visa card's balance is at 0 right now anyways, so i prefer using that one and paying it off immediately.
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post #25 of 26 Old 07-21-2013, 09:53 PM - Thread Starter
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????

It is a 2 dB differeence which is minimal when you are talking about noise that is already about 100 dB down.

Noise that is about 100 dB is inaudible. Any distortion that is about 100 dB down is inaudible.

The background noise in a exceedingly clean recording is rarely more than 80 dB below peak levels, which completely swamps anything that is about 100 dB down.

I didnt look at it with 100db being the reference. I work in in satcom and focused solely on the 2db difference. As you know, a 3db change effectively doubles (or halves) your power. A 2db change is a 75 percent increase (or decrease) in power. But you make a good point in saying that the 2db makes no difference when comparing 98db and 100db.
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post #26 of 26 Old 07-22-2013, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

????

It is a 2 dB differeence which is minimal when you are talking about noise that is already about 100 dB down.

Noise that is about 100 dB is inaudible. Any distortion that is about 100 dB down is inaudible.

The background noise in a exceedingly clean recording is rarely more than 80 dB below peak levels, which completely swamps anything that is about 100 dB down.

I didnt look at it with 100db being the reference. I work in in satcom and focused solely on the 2db difference. As you know, a 3db change effectively doubles (or halves) your power. A 2db change is a 75 percent increase (or decrease) in power. But you make a good point in saying that the 2db makes no difference when comparing 98db and 100db.

Yup, when you are dealing with a received signal, adding a few more dB of signal strength can be very significant. But if the noise floor is 100 dB below the signal or 98 dB down, well whatever.
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