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post #1 of 34 Old 07-26-2013, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Since this is an Amp but it is used for DIY as well i'm not sure where to post.

I'm thinking about getting one and using it to power my subs. I have a few ideas for subs and if I go pre-made I'll get a PA-150 so the question is moot, however I've been contemplating getting a pair of DYI Daytons and pre-made boxes or something similar.

A few reviews on Amazon I found commented about the cooling fan being really loud.

Does anyone have experience w/ this. The best bang for the buck seems to be going the DIY route. It may cost a bit more but for the $ spent I am understanding that it will surpass a similarly priced shipped from the store sub of the same price range.

If I go the DIY route I need to use either amp plates or something like the Behringer but I want to hear a bunch of fan noise from the amp when I'm watching movies.

Ideas?

Still a stereo Noob, Denon 2113 w/ Arx5 & A1b surrounds.
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post #2 of 34 Old 07-26-2013, 01:50 PM
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Those comments you've read are absolutely correct. It sounds like a very loud hair dryer. That being said, hope is not all lost. It is a very simple fan swap to make it dead silent. Head on over to the DIY forum and do a search for Behringer fan mod. When I say dead silent I do mean dead silent. Even with your ear next to it you won't be able to hear it once the case is closed up.
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post #3 of 34 Old 07-26-2013, 02:31 PM
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I have an iNuke 6000 dsp and stock fans were terribly loud. I swapped the stock ones with dual Noctua 80mm fans. They are dead silent from a foot away; any closer and you can hear them slightly. But at my listening position (11feet) they are dead silent.

One thing is certain; you can't watch a movie with stock fans.

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post #4 of 34 Old 07-26-2013, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

I have an iNuke 6000 dsp and stock fans were terribly loud. I swapped the stock ones with dual Noctua 80mm fans. They are dead silent from a foot away; any closer and you can hear them slightly. But at my listening position (11feet) they are dead silent.

One thing is certain; you can't watch a movie with stock fans.
<<<
That was one of my biggest fears. Another member was really pushing the Inuke and the reviews scared me, besides have to figure the tuning out.

Good to know there's an option smile.gif

Still a stereo Noob, Denon 2113 w/ Arx5 & A1b surrounds.
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post #5 of 34 Old 07-26-2013, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

Those comments you've read are absolutely correct. It sounds like a very loud hair dryer. That being said, hope is not all lost. It is a very simple fan swap to make it dead silent. Head on over to the DIY forum and do a search for Behringer fan mod. When I say dead silent I do mean dead silent. Even with your ear next to it you won't be able to hear it once the case is closed up.

Awesome, thanks a bunch!

Still a stereo Noob, Denon 2113 w/ Arx5 & A1b surrounds.
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post #6 of 34 Old 07-26-2013, 03:09 PM
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That was one of my biggest fears.

All you need is a screw driver to do the mod. There is nothing more to it. The member who talked you into buying iNuke was doing great justice to you. You can tailor the amp to your needs down to 20Hz if you opt for the DSP model. It's very intuitive to use and configure.

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post #7 of 34 Old 07-26-2013, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

All you need is a screw driver to do the mod. There is nothing more to it. The member who talked you into buying iNuke was doing great justice to you. You can tailor the amp to your needs down to 20Hz if you opt for the DSP model. It's very intuitive to use and configure.

Great to hear, life is good. I was looking at the DSP model and they supposedly are on sale ebay, NIB for 200 shipped.

BTW, how do you like the 2 daytons? That model is one of my choices. I can get two, w/ box and the Inuke for about $650. Or 724 if I use the new dayton ultimax.

Still a stereo Noob, Denon 2113 w/ Arx5 & A1b surrounds.
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post #8 of 34 Old 07-26-2013, 05:55 PM
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Great to hear, life is good. I was looking at the DSP model and they supposedly are on sale ebay, NIB for 200 shipped.

BTW, how do you like the 2 daytons? That model is one of my choices. I can get two, w/ box and the Inuke for about $650. Or 724 if I use the new dayton ultimax.

For the price Dayton HO 15s are great; but that depends on how you want to tune them. I wanted depth so I tuned them lower. But that requirement comes with trade off. Either you get the depth at the expense of lower bass or you get very strong lower bass at the expense of depth. Hoffman's Iron Law is very much in business.

In any case you must know what you want from a sub.

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post #9 of 34 Old 07-26-2013, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

For the price Dayton HO 15s are great; but that depends on how you want to tune them. I wanted depth so I tuned them lower. But that requirement comes with trade off. Either you get the depth at the expense of lower bass or you get very strong lower bass at the expense of depth. Hoffman's Iron Law is very much in business.

In any case you must know what you want from a sub.

What I want, good sound smile.gif

Depth vs lower bass?? What the h#ll does that mean:eek: I'm really clueless can you explain? I honestly would have thought that it was one and the same.

Still a stereo Noob, Denon 2113 w/ Arx5 & A1b surrounds.
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post #10 of 34 Old 07-26-2013, 07:32 PM
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I just recently bought an NU6000DSP for my ht, and the fan noise is unbearable... but I plan on moving it into a back room (where I already have a media server making all kinds of racket), so I'm not too concerned.

I did have some questions that maybe somebody here can field.

Is it safe to mount it oriented vertically? As in, front panel facing up. I figure that will be the easiest and cheapest way to wall mount it while minimizing it's footprint, and that it will help keep it cool when I eventually do swap the fans out.

Is it safe to switch it on and off via the AC line, instead of the mechanical switch on the front of the unit? Once it goes in the back, I planned on putting it on a relay controlled outlet so it will come one and off with my receiver.
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post #11 of 34 Old 07-26-2013, 08:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by [STD]Ein View Post

I just recently bought an NU6000DSP for my ht, and the fan noise is unbearable... but I plan on moving it into a back room (where I already have a media server making all kinds of racket), so I'm not too concerned.

I did have some questions that maybe somebody here can field.

Is it safe to mount it oriented vertically? As in, front panel facing up. I figure that will be the easiest and cheapest way to wall mount it while minimizing it's footprint, and that it will help keep it cool when I eventually do swap the fans out.

Is it safe to switch it on and off via the AC line, instead of the mechanical switch on the front of the unit? Once it goes in the back, I planned on putting it on a relay controlled outlet so it will come one and off with my receiver.

The hard on/off is one of the turn offs of these amps IMHO. It like how I can use a remote to turn on every darn thing in the room, minus the amp for the subs. Kind of a bummer BUT i'm willing to bet, now that I think of it someone will mention there is one w/ a remote but its only how many thousands of dollars I'm not wanting to spend.

The auto on/off was a feature that I liked w/ amp plates, simple and easy. BUT it seems that cost wise it is a bit cheaper for me to go w/ a pro-amp and run two subs vs using even Bash amps on the sub.

Oh well.
The first person to respond said there is a thread here about making the Inuke quieter. Maybe search that. I'm reading as we speak.

Still a stereo Noob, Denon 2113 w/ Arx5 & A1b surrounds.
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post #12 of 34 Old 07-27-2013, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by [STD]Ein View Post

I just recently bought an NU6000DSP for my ht, and the fan noise is unbearable... but I plan on moving it into a back room (where I already have a media server making all kinds of racket), so I'm not too concerned.

I did have some questions that maybe somebody here can field.

Is it safe to mount it oriented vertically? As in, front panel facing up. I figure that will be the easiest and cheapest way to wall mount it while minimizing it's footprint, and that it will help keep it cool when I eventually do swap the fans out.

Is it safe to switch it on and off via the AC line, instead of the mechanical switch on the front of the unit? Once it goes in the back, I planned on putting it on a relay controlled outlet so it will come one and off with my receiver.

I believe the iNukes pull air from the rear and exhausts it out the front if I recall correctly. If that is the case, mounting it front panel up should be better for cooling. The only issue I can see if the cables coming loose over time if they are not supported properly.

Switching via AC should not pose a problem that I'm aware of. The front switch is mechanical so all you're really doing is moving the switch from the front panel to the outlet. I do that via a 12V relay myself. Total parts cost me less than $20 for the relay, 20A receptacle, electrical box, 1/8" stereo jacks, 1/8" stereo cable, power cable and snubber. You can do it for half the price is you forgo the snubber and stereo jacks and cables. I use the stereo jack and cables for modularity. I have three pro amps each with it's own setup that powers them on when my receiver turns on. Making it modular allows me to configure it so that only certain amps turn on depending on what audio mode I have my receiver set to.

Since you mentioned it I'm assuming you already know how to make one. As the OP has mentioned, you can replace the stock fans and make the amp absolutely silent. No point in doing that if you are going to put it in the basement though. If that is the case I would stick with the stock fans for the piece of mind.
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post #13 of 34 Old 07-27-2013, 04:16 AM
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What I want, good sound smile.gif

Depth vs lower bass?? What the h#ll does that mean:eek: I'm really clueless can you explain? I honestly would have thought that it was one and the same.

"Good Sound" is way too vague and subjective. There are 3 things considered when it comes to box design.e. Extension or Depth, Loudness or Efficiency or SPL, Size. You can only choose two, so, take your pick.

You can have a tiny ported subwoofer box and an efficient driver in it to play loud; but it cannot dig deep and you will lose extended bass response. If you want extended bass response and strong low bass also; the box size will grow like anything. So, there is always a trade off and you have to decide what you want.

Normally people cheat Hoffman's Iron Law by building multiple small sealed boxes. Sealed subs offer great extension at the expense of SPL. So, what they lose in SPL; they make up for it by going with multiples. For every additional subwoofer, 3-6dB of extra SPL is added in the system depending upon one's acoustics of the room or listening area.

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post #14 of 34 Old 07-27-2013, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

I believe the iNukes pull air from the rear and exhausts it out the front if I recall correctly. If that is the case, mounting it front panel up should be better for cooling. The only issue I can see if the cables coming loose over time if they are not supported properly.

Switching via AC should not pose a problem that I'm aware of. The front switch is mechanical so all you're really doing is moving the switch from the front panel to the outlet. I do that via a 12V relay myself. Total parts cost me less than $20 for the relay, 20A receptacle, electrical box, 1/8" stereo jacks, 1/8" stereo cable, power cable and snubber. You can do it for half the price is you forgo the snubber and stereo jacks and cables. I use the stereo jack and cables for modularity. I have three pro amps each with it's own setup that powers them on when my receiver turns on. Making it modular allows me to configure it so that only certain amps turn on depending on what audio mode I have my receiver set to.

Since you mentioned it I'm assuming you already know how to make one. As the OP has mentioned, you can replace the stock fans and make the amp absolutely silent. No point in doing that if you are going to put it in the basement though. If that is the case I would stick with the stock fans for the piece of mind.

Your amps are wired w/ this relay to turn on w/ the receiver?

My basement is my workout room/ tv room so for myself, noise is an issue. I saw the link on the fans and found a few nice silent type fans that move 30+ cfm w/ only 12-15db. The 120mm moves 74cfm and is 18db IIRC.

Still a stereo Noob, Denon 2113 w/ Arx5 & A1b surrounds.
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post #15 of 34 Old 07-27-2013, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

"Good Sound" is way too vague and subjective. There are 3 things considered when it comes to box design.e. Extension or Depth, Loudness or Efficiency or SPL, Size. You can only choose two, so, take your pick.

You can have a tiny ported subwoofer box and an efficient driver in it to play loud; but it cannot dig deep and you will lose extended bass response. If you want extended bass response and strong low bass also; the box size will grow like anything. So, there is always a trade off and you have to decide what you want.

Normally people cheat Hoffman's Iron Law by building multiple small sealed boxes. Sealed subs offer great extension at the expense of SPL. So, what they lose in SPL; they make up for it by going with multiples. For every additional subwoofer, 3-6dB of extra SPL is added in the system depending upon one's acoustics of the room or listening area.

Depth, efficiency or size if I'm understanding, are three considerations but only 2 can be done simultaneously for a normal house stereo?

Still a stereo Noob, Denon 2113 w/ Arx5 & A1b surrounds.
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post #16 of 34 Old 07-27-2013, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by powerlifter405 View Post

Your amps are wired w/ this relay to turn on w/ the receiver?

My basement is my workout room/ tv room so for myself, noise is an issue. I saw the link on the fans and found a few nice silent type fans that move 30+ cfm w/ only 12-15db. The 120mm moves 74cfm and is 18db IIRC.

This is correct. You leave the amp powered on and plugged in to the outlet controlled by the relay. The relay has a 12V trigger. In the presence of a 12V signal it will close the contact. The relay act as your automatic on/off switch. My receiver has a 12V trigger output so when it turns on the 12V trigger output sends a 12V signal to the relay that closes the contacts and provides power to the amp. Viola! My system is a little more complex though so I actually use a series of devices inline for modularity since the 12V trigger on the receiver can only put out so much power and multiple relays will overload the receiver. So I actually have the 12V trigger output power on a 12V DC power supply that feeds into a distribution box with numerous 1/8" stereo jacks. As I add more devices, all I need to do is plug them into the distribution block for the 12V signal without having to worry about overloading my receiver.

I don't think a 120mm fan will fit in the iNukes. Not unless you plan on installing it externally and fashioning some type of airtight hood for it. That would be interesting.

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Depth, efficiency or size if I'm understanding, are three considerations but only 2 can be done simultaneously for a normal house stereo?

For the most part, yes. It's not just for consumer speakers either. It applies to ALL speakers even pro/commercial.
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post #17 of 34 Old 07-27-2013, 11:50 AM
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I recently brought the I Nuke 3000 DSP and was afraid of the fan noise. This unit is not dead silent but the fan noise is similar to the low noise with central air or heating in the room. It is really only noticeable at very low volumes. Over all, the DSP unit is very nice and user friendly. I use mine for my Chase SS 18.1 subs in bridge mode. I want to keep it a while before considering the fan mod which will void the warranty. The fans are 2 speed and this one seems to stay on the low speed since the gear is not pushed as hard as pro gear.

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus 200 Five, Dayton 18 Ultimxa Dual Sub Cab(2), Dayton 18 Ultimax Large Vented Sub Cab (2), on Berhinger I Nuke DPS amps, Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

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post #18 of 34 Old 07-27-2013, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

I recently brought the I Nuke 3000 DSP and was afraid of the fan noise. This unit is not dead silent but the fan noise is similar to the low noise with central air or heating in the room. It is really only noticeable at very low volumes. Over all, the DSP unit is very nice and user friendly. I use mine for my Chase SS 18.1 subs in bridge mode.

I think you would be the first person to state that the fan noise was only noticeable at low volumes. Is this a new unit or used? If it was used, maybe the previous owner already replaced the fans. Both my EPX4000 and my brother-in-laws NU3000DSP were unbearably loud. Like high pitched hair dryer going at full tilt and then some.
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post #19 of 34 Old 07-27-2013, 12:18 PM
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I can hear my nu6000dsp which is temporarily residing under a coffee table that is completely isolated from by two couches over the sound of my htpc and furnace (other side of a paper thin wall from my home theatre). My friend tells me his ep4000 is even louder than it... Different people must have very different tolerances for noise.
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post #20 of 34 Old 07-27-2013, 01:32 PM
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Depth, efficiency or size if I'm understanding, are three considerations but only 2 can be done simultaneously for a normal house stereo?

Yes. Stereo, Multi-channel, movies, games, etc do not matter. The rule applies for usage in any and every application.

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post #21 of 34 Old 07-27-2013, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

This is correct. You leave the amp powered on and plugged in to the outlet controlled by the relay. The relay has a 12V trigger. In the presence of a 12V signal it will close the contact. The relay act as your automatic on/off switch. My receiver has a 12V trigger output so when it turns on the 12V trigger output sends a 12V signal to the relay that closes the contacts and provides power to the amp. Viola! My system is a little more complex though so I actually use a series of devices inline for modularity since the 12V trigger on the receiver can only put out so much power and multiple relays will overload the receiver. So I actually have the 12V trigger output power on a 12V DC power supply that feeds into a distribution box with numerous 1/8" stereo jacks. As I add more devices, all I need to do is plug them into the distribution block for the 12V signal without having to worry about overloading my receiver.

I don't think a 120mm fan will fit in the iNukes. Not unless you plan on installing it externally and fashioning some type of airtight hood for it. That would be interesting.
For the most part, yes. It's not just for consumer speakers either. It applies to ALL speakers even pro/commercial.


There is an adaptor for the 120 to use externally to push vs pull. There is a write up here or hometheatershack. I thought I saved the link last night but it was pretty straight forward.
Use http://www.silenx.com/quiet.fans.asp?sku=efx-12-15 which is 74 cfm and only 15db or use the 32cfm 80mm w/ 15db with http://www.amazon.com/Nexus-80mm-92mm-120mm-Converter/dp/B002C7IQ1O/ref=sr_1_1?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1374953846&sr=1-1&keywords=120mm+fan+adapter

For a total of less than $20 bucks invested and if it flows 50% more than the 80mm at 15db someone is ahead of the game. More air flow than the 80 and less noise. I thought I read last night the factory Inuke is 24 or 27cfm but there was no db rating so even w/ a new silenx 80mm fan you've gained something.

Do you have any pics? I just ordered a Denon 2113ci refurb. Where/what would I use as the 12v trigger? I'd love to have something simple like your setup.

Still a stereo Noob, Denon 2113 w/ Arx5 & A1b surrounds.
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post #22 of 34 Old 07-27-2013, 03:45 PM
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There is an adaptor for the 120 to use externally to push vs pull. There is a write up here or hometheatershack. I thought I saved the link last night but it was pretty straight forward.
Use http://www.silenx.com/quiet.fans.asp?sku=efx-12-15 which is 74 cfm and only 15db or use the 32cfm 80mm w/ 15db with http://www.amazon.com/Nexus-80mm-92mm-120mm-Converter/dp/B002C7IQ1O/ref=sr_1_1?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1374953846&sr=1-1&keywords=120mm+fan+adapter

For a total of less than $20 bucks invested and if it flows 50% more than the 80mm at 15db someone is ahead of the game. More air flow than the 80 and less noise. I thought I read last night the factory Inuke is 24 or 27cfm but there was no db rating so even w/ a new silenx 80mm fan you've gained something.

Do you have any pics? I just ordered a Denon 2113ci refurb. Where/what would I use as the 12v trigger? I'd love to have something simple like your setup.

That 80mm --> 120mm fan adapter won't work in this application. The Behringer amps are 2U tall which is 85mm tall. No way to get a 120mm tall fan into an 85mm tall amp. The only way to do this is to get some type of custom shroud which will allow you to mount the fan horizontally inside the case. I don't recall how much open space there is inside the amp case, but I can't imagine it would be enough room for that. It would be easier to create an external shroud that fits on the front panel if you insist on a 120mm fan. I just think it would be more trouble than it's worth for most people. Best bet is to go with a quieter 80mm fan. Maybe you can find a thicker 80mm fan that moves more air at lower RPMs. Again, I don't remember how much clearance there is in there.

Unfortunately, that Denon doesn't have 12V triggers since it doesn't have analog outputs it assumes you won't be using an external amp. You will need to get a smart power strip. In case you don't know what a smart power strip is it's one that shuts off one or more of the outlets on the strip when the device plugged into the master outlet is off. You will need one of those and a setup similar to mine. Plug the DC power supply to one of the controlled outlets. When the receiver turns on it will power on the DC power supply which will then trigger the relays to energize the outlets in the home made electrical box..

Just got the chance to pull my rack out to pull my homemade trigger setup out to take some pictures for you.

Here is the relay I use. You can use a single pole relay similar to a light switch where the bulb always has one neutral wire always connected then the switch disconnects the hot wire, but I prefer a double pole relay that disconnects both lines. This is added safety in case someone ever decides to take my "borrows" my invention and plugs it into an extension cord with the ground plug broken off and it doesn't have the plug blades key to prevent plugging it in reversed. Doing this will allow for a live hot wire in on the output side of my relay. Call me anal if you'd like, but to me it's just peace of mind. This also give you the ability to use the same device for 220V devices as it will disconnect both hot lines.

Anyhow, back to the picture. The two closest connectors in the relay are for the incoming 12VDC trigger.



Connect the positive and negative wires to these connectors. It doesn't matter which polarity goes to which connector. In my case, I connected it to a 1/8" mono jack. Now the four connectors in the back are for the 120V. They work in pairs. The left two are paired up and the right two are paired up. It doesn't matter which pair you use for the hot and neutral lines, but make sure you connect it to the correct side of the receptacle to maintain correct polarity. The ground doesn't go through the relay. Again, for safety purposes the ground wire is always connected.




Here's a shot of the 1/8" mono jack on the side of the box. I have one on each side for ease of placement.



Here are some photos of the 12VDC distribution box.

Inside wiring.


1/8" mono jacks.


Standard 12VDC input.


12VDC power supply.


1/8" stereo cable (mono cable will work also).


Photo of how everything is connected together.


Chart of how everything is connected.
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post #23 of 34 Old 07-27-2013, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, lots to digest.

I saw that the 2113 has a audio zone2 analog out if I'm seeing this right.

http://www.audiogeneral.com/denon/avr2113ci.pdf

How much do you think it would cost to build one of those fancy setups for a single external amp?

Still a stereo Noob, Denon 2113 w/ Arx5 & A1b surrounds.
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post #24 of 34 Old 07-27-2013, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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would this work?

http://www.belkin.com/us/F7C01110-Belkin/p/P-F7C01110

or this:

http://catalog.bitsltd.us/catalog/SMART/LCG3.html

Still a stereo Noob, Denon 2113 w/ Arx5 & A1b surrounds.
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post #25 of 34 Old 07-27-2013, 08:14 PM
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Currently at a concert. I'll respond to your questions when I get home. If all you have is a single outlet then all you will need is the smart strip. My setup is only beneficial when you have dedicated outlets for the amp.
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post #26 of 34 Old 07-27-2013, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

I think you would be the first person to state that the fan noise was only noticeable at low volumes. Is this a new unit or used? If it was used, maybe the previous owner already replaced the fans. Both my EPX4000 and my brother-in-laws NU3000DSP were unbearably loud. Like high pitched hair dryer going at full tilt and then some.

I just purchased this unit brand new around 3 weeks ago thru Guitar Center in Utha. I am use to a black noise floor where I can hear a pin drop between songs with no amp or speakers hiss, hum or what ever so I was pleasantly surprised with the I Nuke 3000 DSP.

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus 200 Five, Dayton 18 Ultimxa Dual Sub Cab(2), Dayton 18 Ultimax Large Vented Sub Cab (2), on Berhinger I Nuke DPS amps, Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

Yaquin VK 2100 amp, McIntosh XR 5 speakers, Samsung BDP F 7500
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post #27 of 34 Old 07-28-2013, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

Currently at a concert. I'll respond to your questions when I get home. If all you have is a single outlet then all you will need is the smart strip. My setup is only beneficial when you have dedicated outlets for the amp.

good to know

Still a stereo Noob, Denon 2113 w/ Arx5 & A1b surrounds.
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post #28 of 34 Old 07-28-2013, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

All you need is a screw driver to do the mod.

What about the wiring?

I thought Behringer glues in the connector, on top of which it doesn't match standard fan connectors.

Noah
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post #29 of 34 Old 07-28-2013, 03:34 PM
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Here is a nice video of someone doing a fan mod on the I Nuke 6000. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0acD2uFFkg

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus 200 Five, Dayton 18 Ultimxa Dual Sub Cab(2), Dayton 18 Ultimax Large Vented Sub Cab (2), on Berhinger I Nuke DPS amps, Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

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post #30 of 34 Old 07-28-2013, 03:59 PM
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Thanks; it shows that he had to clip the original wires and solder the fan leads to them, which presumably voids the warranty.

Noah
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