Denon 3313CI Refurbished? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 34 Old 08-05-2013, 07:56 AM
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back to the original post about refurbished units I would like to share one perspective.


when everything was analog (before HDMI) I used to always buy "OPEN BOX" receivers that were typically last year's model that they were blowing out. why? because the differences between this year's and last year's models weren't that big of a deal to me personally. I was all about getting a deal on something that would suit my needs. open box or display model A/V receivers didn't bother me because there's no moving parts inside so there's nothing "mechanical" to worry about. extended warranties were cheap back in those days too. CD and DVD players for example I felt different about. they have moving parts inside so I felt there was a greater propensity for device failure or malfunction just because of the mechanics inside and also the questionable manner in which the item may have been handled by store employees.

now that everything is DIGITAL things have changed. HDMI is tricky. it has too many problems. given my experiences with the DENON 3313CI I would never buy a display model or a refurbished model. a brand new one out of the box is questionable enough, but at least you know you are starting new from scratch - everything on that unit is brand new without question. a used one or a display one... you don't know what's been done to that unit or how it was handled. what does "REFURBISHED" really mean? and just how much do they really guarantee it? how many times were the HDMI cables plugged in and unplugged hot with the power to the unit or the source on? are the HDMI jacks burned out or do you have a bad HDMI cable? did they really take the time to test every little thing on that receiver when they "refurbished" it? remember we live in an age where its cheaper to replace something than it is to actually fix something. this is why you don't see A/V repair shops on every corner like you used to. unless its high end its not worth the cost of repair due to labor costs. how many repair technicians you know work for minimum wage? how cheap is the test equipment used to diagnose problems on this equipment? the money has to come from somewhere. this unit has enough issues already when its brand new out of the box. when you run into problems (hopefully you don't, but it would be wise to assume you will) you want to be able to rule out certain things. the receiver should not be the weak link in your chain.

if you must buy a refurbished unit due to price issues I would highly advise getting an extended warranty on this unit that will either fix it for free or replace it with a brand new unit for free. also, I would get the warranty to cover it for 3 years. A/V receivers are usually good for 3 to 5 years and then something else comes out that is bigger and better. personally I can't wait til they toss out HDMI and go fiber optics with everything. that will solve a lot of problems especially for the installer of custom home theaters. I think fiber optics will also make things much simpler and easier for the consumer level buyer as well.

I look forward to learning more from all of you.
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post #32 of 34 Old 08-05-2013, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by excusemaker View Post

no offense intended toward you personally, but its been my experience that unless you work at a specialty A/V shop that caters to the "high end" the typical salesman has no idea what the difference is between one receiver and the next other than price. at the consumer level the typical salesman is extremely ignorant about the topic to begin with. they don't know what they are selling and don't earn enough to even be able to afford what they are selling in the first place. the typical salesman has no idea what this equipment will do.

here's an example of what i'm talking about. there wasn't single store in this entire city where I could find a salesman that knew what a trigger cable was for connecting a power amp to a receiver. NOT ONE! not only that, but there wasn't a single store I could find a trigger cable at in this entire town. I had to go on ebay to get one. do you know what it is? 1/8 inch mono cable. that's all it is. and yet nobody knew? not one sales man? some of these salesmen work on commissions too. when you tell me you were a salesman that could mean a lot of different things and again i'm not trying to sound offensive. for all I know you could be a real authority on this type of equipment.

None taken since I certainly wouldn't argue that most salesman have no idea what they are doing or selling. I wouldn't consider myself an authority, just a hobbyist like most on here who also happened to sell this equipment for a while and may have a different perspective on the typical consumer who is likely not on these forums. Casual consumers sometimes join AVS to ask advice about a specific purpose, get bombarded by an overload of information and are never heard from again. As much as we might like to think so, the majority of AVS members are not typical consumers.

As far a lack of knowledge by salesman, for big box stores, from a business viewpoint I would highly doubt that it would make financial sense for them to train their employees to this kind of level. As you said, most people who work in those environments see it only as a job and not a passion so they aren't going to learn this stuff on their own free time. They also, as you pointed out and as I have experienced, are not paid well enough to justify learning it for the sake of their jobs. And, as much as I would like to walk into a Best Buy store, ask for a 12v trigger cable, and get handed one immediately, how often do you really think these kinds of questions come up? To spend the time and money to train their employees, and pay them well enough to care about it, you are gaining so few sales (and in your example, a $2 sales) from it that it just doesn't make sense. As much as we would like to think otherwise, being a good salesman helps to sell mid to hi-end audio/video a lot more than being knowledgeable about the product. Maybe not to you or me, but to typical consumers who walk in the door without decent background knowledge.

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Originally Posted by excusemaker View Post

the DENON 3313CI is a great example of where i'm going to go next with my answer to you. I don't know about the area you live in, but here in LAS VEGAS the only store that carried this unit was FRY'S and it was the top DENON unit they carried in stock on the shelf. while not the most expensive receiver they carried (the most expensive was ONKYO at the $2,200 price level.) the DENON 3313ci was selling for $1,100. with extended warranty and everything mine came out to about $1,400. stores like BEST BUY and even their higher end "MAGNOLIA" centers didn't carry the 3313ci on the shelf - a special order item only if you even knew it existed.

I'm in the DC metro area and can say for sure that Best Buy Magnolia HT and their newer Design Centers do display and stock the 3313ci, well did it's now the X4000. The Design Centers also display and stock the AVR-4520. The Design Centers also stock the top tier Marantz and FMJ Arcam line, partial McIntosh line too.
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Originally Posted by excusemaker View Post

if you go on the denon website and look up this model of receiver they give you the specs for the receiver. they tell you everything about it. they "SELL" it to you! the limitations I've run into are in fine print in the owners manual that you have to download since this unit doesn't come with a hard copy of it out of the box. when the company DENON advertises the capability of this particular product they are in fact targeting a specific buyer who has specific intentions. to suggest otherwise is to also suggest that they aren't trying to sell the lower end models they are offering. let me be clear about something regarding this particular unit DENON 3313CI. they pushed the capability in their advertisement of this unit to the max with the following features - PHYSICAL SIZE, ZONE 2 HDMI OUT, FULL CHANNEL PRE OUTS. they actually pushed in their advertisements the idea that this unit (which is true I won't deny it) is the most capable receiver on the market for its physical size and its low price in contrast to anything else on the market. they were without a doubt targeting a specific buyer. now if the buyer is ignorant that's on the buyer, but it suggests nothing about the way this particular model is marketed or advertised.

I never said that they don't try to sell it to you, just that people get enticed even by features they do not need. I mean seriously, how many people with 4x4 suvs will ever need to go off road? Do you really think Land Rover have their off-road road tests to show people how they will work in every day life? Of course not, but it helps sell their product. And multi-zone is far from a step-up or high-end feature for the X4000 considering even the E400 denon talks about multi-zone multi-souce ability.


Quote:
Originally Posted by excusemaker View Post

back to the original post about refurbished units I would like to share one perspective.


when everything was analog (before HDMI) I used to always buy "OPEN BOX" receivers that were typically last year's model that they were blowing out. why? because the differences between this year's and last year's models weren't that big of a deal to me personally. I was all about getting a deal on something that would suit my needs. open box or display model A/V receivers didn't bother me because there's no moving parts inside so there's nothing "mechanical" to worry about. extended warranties were cheap back in those days too. CD and DVD players for example I felt different about. they have moving parts inside so I felt there was a greater propensity for device failure or malfunction just because of the mechanics inside and also the questionable manner in which the item may have been handled by store employees.

now that everything is DIGITAL things have changed. HDMI is tricky. it has too many problems. given my experiences with the DENON 3313CI I would never buy a display model or a refurbished model. a brand new one out of the box is questionable enough, but at least you know you are starting new from scratch - everything on that unit is brand new without question. a used one or a display one... you don't know what's been done to that unit or how it was handled. what does "REFURBISHED" really mean? and just how much do they really guarantee it? how many times were the HDMI cables plugged in and unplugged hot with the power to the unit or the source on? are the HDMI jacks burned out or do you have a bad HDMI cable? did they really take the time to test every little thing on that receiver when they "refurbished" it? remember we live in an age where its cheaper to replace something than it is to actually fix something. this is why you don't see A/V repair shops on every corner like you used to. unless its high end its not worth the cost of repair due to labor costs. how many repair technicians you know work for minimum wage? how cheap is the test equipment used to diagnose problems on this equipment? the money has to come from somewhere. this unit has enough issues already when its brand new out of the box. when you run into problems (hopefully you don't, but it would be wise to assume you will) you want to be able to rule out certain things. the receiver should not be the weak link in your chain.

if you must buy a refurbished unit due to price issues I would highly advise getting an extended warranty on this unit that will either fix it for free or replace it with a brand new unit for free. also, I would get the warranty to cover it for 3 years. A/V receivers are usually good for 3 to 5 years and then something else comes out that is bigger and better. personally I can't wait til they toss out HDMI and go fiber optics with everything. that will solve a lot of problems especially for the installer of custom home theaters. I think fiber optics will also make things much simpler and easier for the consumer level buyer as well.

I'm also hesitant to buy refurb gear. Some refurb gear is literally brand new while others are defective. I don't know that if I were in the OP's position I would buy refurb. I would look to negotiate with local retail stores for NIB, or negotiate even harder with open box. If you buy OB from a local store, you should be able to return it without penalty if there is something wrong and you will typically receive the full manufacturer's warranty, unlike with refurb gear.
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post #33 of 34 Old 08-05-2013, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post

None taken since I certainly wouldn't argue that most salesman have no idea what they are doing or selling. I wouldn't consider myself an authority, just a hobbyist like most on here who also happened to sell this equipment for a while and may have a different perspective on the typical consumer who is likely not on these forums. Casual consumers sometimes join AVS to ask advice about a specific purpose, get bombarded by an overload of information and are never heard from again. As much as we might like to think so, the majority of AVS members are not typical consumers.

As far a lack of knowledge by salesman, for big box stores, from a business viewpoint I would highly doubt that it would make financial sense for them to train their employees to this kind of level. As you said, most people who work in those environments see it only as a job and not a passion so they aren't going to learn this stuff on their own free time. They also, as you pointed out and as I have experienced, are not paid well enough to justify learning it for the sake of their jobs. And, as much as I would like to walk into a Best Buy store, ask for a 12v trigger cable, and get handed one immediately, how often do you really think these kinds of questions come up? To spend the time and money to train their employees, and pay them well enough to care about it, you are gaining so few sales (and in your example, a $2 sales) from it that it just doesn't make sense. As much as we would like to think otherwise, being a good salesman helps to sell mid to hi-end audio/video a lot more than being knowledgeable about the product. Maybe not to you or me, but to typical consumers who walk in the door without decent background knowledge.
I'm in the DC metro area and can say for sure that Best Buy Magnolia HT and their newer Design Centers do display and stock the 3313ci, well did it's now the X4000. The Design Centers also display and stock the AVR-4520. The Design Centers also stock the top tier Marantz and FMJ Arcam line, partial McIntosh line too.
I never said that they don't try to sell it to you, just that people get enticed even by features they do not need. I mean seriously, how many people with 4x4 suvs will ever need to go off road? Do you really think Land Rover have their off-road road tests to show people how they will work in every day life? Of course not, but it helps sell their product. And multi-zone is far from a step-up or high-end feature for the X4000 considering even the E400 denon talks about multi-zone multi-souce ability.
I'm also hesitant to buy refurb gear. Some refurb gear is literally brand new while others are defective. I don't know that if I were in the OP's position I would buy refurb. I would look to negotiate with local retail stores for NIB, or negotiate even harder with open box. If you buy OB from a local store, you should be able to return it without penalty if there is something wrong and you will typically receive the full manufacturer's warranty, unlike with refurb gear.


the one problem with a return policy on an open box item in this situation is that there's going to be a short time limit involved. the OP probably doesn't have a budget for all the other parts of his home theater system if he/she is seriously considering a refurb unit over a new one. that said, there's a good chance the OP or someone else in their shoes (I'M A GREAT EXAMPLE BY THE WAY) builds their home theater piece by piece over time as they can afford it. that said, a 30 day return policy isn't going to help the OP if the op doesn't have the rest of the equipment needed to hook up to the receiver. you get your receiver and speakers today and then have to wait a year to get the rest of the stuff only to learn that the receiver was defective from the get go - where are you going to be at that point? this is why you need the warranty that will cover it for a few years.

I look forward to learning more from all of you.
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post #34 of 34 Old 08-05-2013, 10:34 AM
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Keep in mind..
A refurbed AVR was returned for some reason.. confused.gif
And when a brand or 3rd party does go through the refurbishing process, they spend little time testing everything. They power it up, check a few basic audio/video functions, add the any missing accessories and box it up.

Just my $0.02... 👍😉
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