Buying denon x4000 or Onkyo 929 need help - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 08-04-2013, 06:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I Have a older B&K AVR507 receiver that ive had since new from 2002. While an amazing receiver I want the new options on the receivers of today,

My speakers are the problem, they are the Polk Audio LSi series that are 4ohm, I also use a SVS Ultra sub that has a separate amp.

So deciding on one of these 2 new receivers , Onkyo said the 929 would handle 4ohm speakers but I haven't seen anything about the Denon X4000? I don't want to run sep amps for my speakers so if the Denon cant handle the 4ohm I would go with the new Onkyo.

Any suggestions for me?
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post #2 of 24 Old 08-04-2013, 10:09 AM
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The Denon should also be able to drive those speakers. Either should work out just fine. They would also allow you to add an amp in the future if you wanted.
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post #3 of 24 Old 08-04-2013, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Any preference between the 2. I like the Bluetooth on the onkyo but I see onkyo has had issue in the past. Denon seems solid but lacking some of the features the onkyo has.
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post #4 of 24 Old 08-04-2013, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidplayer View Post

Any preference between the 2. I like the Bluetooth on the onkyo but I see onkyo has had issue in the past. Denon seems solid but lacking some of the features the onkyo has.

If it were me I would choose the Denon due to the current problems with the Onkyo's. You could also give the Yamaha Aventage AVR'S a look. Lot of features on those. There are also models from Pioneer Elites, NAD's and Marantz to look into. The NAD'S and Marantz can be found at www.audioadvisor.com. Details are very good on that site as well as Crutchfields.com.
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post #5 of 24 Old 08-04-2013, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Do you guys think I would see 1300 dollars worth of difference from my OLD high end THX ultra 2 BK avr 507 to these new receivers?
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post #6 of 24 Old 08-04-2013, 11:28 AM
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Although the X4000 is not designed to handle 4-ohm speakers, as long as you don't exceed average volume levels (eg. -20db), you should be fine. What feature is missing from the X4000 that you need? Also note the X4000 uses Sub EQ HT to calibrate dual subs whereas the 929 does not should you decide to add another SVS.

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post #7 of 24 Old 08-04-2013, 11:40 AM
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You could use the AVR X4000 as a preamp if it doesn't handle 4 ohm speakers as well as your B&K.

Your AVR507 looks like is has 5.1 analog inputs.


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post #8 of 24 Old 08-04-2013, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Although the X4000 is not designed to handle 4-ohm speakers, as long as you don't exceed average volume levels (eg. -20db), you should be fine. What feature is missing from the X4000 that you need? Also note the X4000 uses Sub EQ HT to calibrate dual subs whereas the 929 does not should you decide to add another SVS.
totally..agree with you here... the denon can not handle..4 ohms.. a friend..have the denon.. the x4000 keeps going to protection mode with his 4 ohms speakers ...Yamaha/Pioneer/NAD... are your best options for low impedance..loads.. i have got the NAD ..PRE/PRO and power amp..but i had the pioneer 1121-k ..and that handel the 4 ohms with easy..

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post #9 of 24 Old 08-05-2013, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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How would I go about doing that? Plug the speaker wires into the bk then the analog cables from the bk Into the other receiver ? Of so what do I put the bk setting on and volume etc? Sorry still a newb with all this
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post #10 of 24 Old 08-05-2013, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Well I talked to onkyo and they said the 929 can handle all 7.1 with 4ohm.. They said you just can't mix and match say 4 and. 8 ohm when choosing the 4 ohm impedance setting.
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post #11 of 24 Old 08-05-2013, 04:14 PM
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You would set it at 6 or 8 ohm and leave it. IIrc the 4 ohm setting results in lower power.
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post #12 of 24 Old 08-05-2013, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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So set to 6 for my 4 ohm?
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post #13 of 24 Old 08-05-2013, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidplayer View Post

So set to 6 for my 4 ohm?

Leave it on 8 Ohms..

Just my $0.02... 👍😉
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post #14 of 24 Old 08-05-2013, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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That won't have any negative effect ?
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post #15 of 24 Old 08-05-2013, 04:45 PM
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No sir. Set it at 8 and leave it there.
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post #16 of 24 Old 08-06-2013, 07:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Leave it on 8 Ohms..

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom52 View Post

No sir. Set it at 8 and leave it there.

I "third" that FWIW. What a "Low Z" (6Ω or 4Ω) mode generally does is engage a circuit that significantly limits the output voltage of the AVR. This is simply for the purposes of continuous full power heat dissipation testing by the electrical product certifiers. This mode effectively limits the current available to the speaker but increases the risk of clipping the amp.

This Audioholics article explains the whole issue in detail.
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post #17 of 24 Old 08-06-2013, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the link!
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post #18 of 24 Old 01-21-2014, 07:17 AM
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Yeah stupid safety concerns! There all just lies to control us and they are there for no reason. Don't listen to these nit wits if the amp is not rated for 4 ohms Don't run it that way. Just because some genius tells you "I do it" does not mean it is safe. Do not take advice from people whom have no idea what the hell they are talking about. The 4 ohm setting reduces the rail voltage from the power supply for safety reasons because the amp is not 4 ohm stable. Fire does not care if some guy said it is ok. It just burns down your house. Relying on protection circuitry is not a very smart idea when you lose all your belongings or even worse your family. People stop giving bad advice. If you want to go ahead and risk making stupid decisions go ahead but don't influence others to jump ship. If you run 4 ohm loads on these units, to do it safely use the 4 ohm setting. It is there for a reason. Again your insurance company does not care that Shmo said he does it so it's ok. 

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post #19 of 24 Old 01-21-2014, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolli666 View Post

Yeah stupid safety concerns! There all just lies to control us and they are there for no reason. Don't listen to these nit wits if the amp is not rated for 4 ohms Don't run it that way. Just because some genius tells you "I do it" does not mean it is safe. Do not take advice from people whom have no idea what the hell they are talking about.

This will shorty touch on whose ox gets gored by this statement... ;-)
Quote:
The 4 ohm setting reduces the rail voltage from the power supply for safety reasons

So far so good.
Quote:
because the amp is not 4 ohm stable.

False. the amp is 4 ohm stable, but if you run it on a bench test with pure steady sine waves and a resistive load, the setting for higher impedance speakers will be more likely to allow the amplifier to overheat. I do bench testing of power amps and AVRs and I can tell you how this works in the real world. I've even destroyed a few amps along the way, sad to say.

Quote:
Fire does not care if some guy said it is ok. It just burns down your house.

This is a bit alarmist. As I said I've destroyed a few amps and here's what happens. Liability is a big thing for amp manufacturers and so their equipment often has a number of fail safe mechanisms. One common fail safe mechanism is a fusable link buried inside the power transformer that opens up permanently if you overheat it. You can't make it catch fire on a bet - it will just melt the fusable link and open the primary winding up and then its about $80 or more for a new transformer.

I did this by playing 20 KHz at full power with all channels and then getting called away, I thought for just a minute or two. I came back about an hour later and my monitoring equipment told me that the amp stopped producing power after about 30 minutes of this abuse.
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Relying on protection circuitry is not a very smart idea when you lose all your belongings or even worse your family.

That is good reason not to do really stupid things like cutting off the grounding pin on 3 wire plugs, but a little thing like a 6 ohm/8 ohm switch on an AVR won't go there or even get close in anything like normal use. There's are a number of highly significant differences between testing amps with pure sine waves on a test bench while driving a resistive load and playing music for enjoyment with loudspeakers.

The first reason is that very few people run their amps at full peak output because with most amps and speakers, its way loud.

The second reason is that music has a higher crest factor than pure sine waves by an absolute minimum factor of from 2 to 4, which means that while I can get your amp to put out say 100 wpc average power on the test bench with sine waves, but simply switching to music playing at peak maximum levels cuts that to 25 watts or less.

The third reason is that load resistors have an average impedance that is the same as their rated impedance, but that speakers have an average impedance that is about 150% of their rated impedance, even when their impedance dips below 4 ohms at a few frequencies. Higher impedance means less load. Now our 100 watt average is about 16 watts.

Now if you aren't an EE the above may all seem like double talk, but I'm here to explain what needs to be explained.
Quote:
People stop giving bad advice. If you want to go ahead and risk making stupid decisions go ahead but don't influence others to jump ship. If you run 4 ohm loads on these units, to do it safely use the 4 ohm setting. It is there for a reason. Again your insurance company does not care that Shmo said he does it so it's ok. 

No sane person wants to sacrifice safety, but in this case: Chill. ;-)
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post #20 of 24 Old 01-21-2014, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Leave it on 8 Ohms..

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom52 View Post

No sir. Set it at 8 and leave it there.

I "third" that FWIW. What a "Low Z" (6Ω or 4Ω) mode generally does is engage a circuit that significantly limits the output voltage of the AVR. This is simply for the purposes of continuous full power heat dissipation testing by the electrical product certifiers. This mode effectively limits the current available to the speaker but increases the risk of clipping the amp.

This Audioholics article explains the whole issue in detail.

+1 . the Audioholics articles are generally very good and this is (no surprise) another good one.
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post #21 of 24 Old 01-21-2014, 08:56 AM
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The problem I see on this forum and many others is people whom ever they are making this recommendation to people with know knowledge of the load the unit will be driving. As impedance ratings of transducers are nominal the electrical phase in relation to actual impedance at whatever frequency may be very difficult to drive. These amps cannot run seven or nine channels at a nominal 4 ohm load with steep phase angles. To say no one will do this is a totally impossible statement to make as no one can know. If they where to state just front 4 ohm nominal loads perhaps, but unless they are confident they know what they are doing stick with the guide lines set in place they are there for a reason. My point is specific cases sure these amps are safe to run some lower impedances but the safe guards are not there to protect against misuse which is use outside of specifications. They are there to protect against normal use failure. Melting is not a good thing it means materials are being used outside their specs and this is not safe. To state that a product would melt first is not a very good safe guard if you ask me. So before people make blanket statements the possibilities have to be considered and to say in most cases is not good enough.    

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post #22 of 24 Old 01-21-2014, 01:12 PM
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Rolli 666, in regards to "protection circuitry" the manufacturers build it to a reasonable standard, admittedly not to Arny's test bench standards but at least good enough for the intended market. So the sky is not actually falling. Despite your insinuations there are a lot of experts here, like Arny and many others, that even you could learn from. I could be considered an expert in another field but when it comes to AV this is the best earth has to offer.

Lest we forget, the OP is considering an X4000 or a 929. I did my research before I bought my 929. While the bashers will point out Onkyo's reliability, as though it can't ever change, in fact the past problems were centered around overheating HDMI boards. While Onkyo says they fixed that, I found my 929 runs about 30 degrees cooler than my Integra prepro or other Onkyo receiver. My Integra is probably a step up from the OP's receiver but my 929 is just better all around, especially the important criteria, sound. The Onkyo's power supply is stout compared to the Denon's. I think there's a 12 pound weight difference between the two.

But as many have pointed out, the X4000 does have Sub EQ HT. Important if you have different subs and located in acoustically different locations. But I would direct you to "Film Mixer's" suggestions for dealing with that in the 929 user forum.

In my 9.1 setup I don't miss my 200 watt per channel Outlaw amp. This AVR just does everything I ask of it.
I'm glad I missed JDSmoothie's call or I might have missed out on the 929.

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post #23 of 24 Old 01-21-2014, 02:56 PM
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Just picked up an X4000 over the 929 because I plan utilizing not only Sub-eq but the pre-outs with a separate amp - the Crown XLS 1500. It's rated at 4ohms at 525W max per channel. Why not go that route?

Denon AVR-X4000 ($622)
Gallo Strada 2 fronts, with Mapleshade stands ($600)
HSU VTF-2 ($215)
Harmony 650 remote
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post #24 of 24 Old 01-28-2014, 08:07 AM
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So can the Onkyo definitely not handle the 4 ohm load? I'd be a bit worried with matching the Polks to a Denon. Bright speakers + bright receiver = potentially overbearing sound. I have Atlantic tech 2200 speakers and I went from an Onkyo 806 to the Denon 4000 and the sound is substantially brighter with the Denon. Maybe I can do some fine tuning once I get it back from the repair shop (this used Parasound amp I bought off of ebay fried it) I'll do some tweaking but I'm thinking about selling the Denon and going with the Onkyo 929. I don't know if it's just the sound modes (THX, specifically) or a difference in Audyssey (I know the Denon's is SUPPOSED to be much more advanced, but I have to do some significant adjustments with the Denon; whereas with the Onkyo, I just run it and let it go) but the Onkyo also presents a significantly smoother and more open soundfield in the front. I had to set up the old Onkyo after I took the denon to the shop and that was when I noticed that huge difference. I was literally about ready to sell my Atlantics and buy the Hsu speakers (since they are warmer and are said to have a massive soundstage), but after hooking the Onkyo back up I'm thinking I might be better off just going back to Onkyo. I'm going to fiddle with sound modes and level setting when I get the Denon back and go from there.

I know Atlantic has matched up with Onkyo many times for demo purposes and I'm thinking that they just go well together. And since Polk's also have a reputation for a brighter sound (I'm not even sure that Atlantics do), in terms of pure sound quality, or rather, ease-of-listening (aggressive tremble isn't "bad" sound, just overbearing sometimes) I'd put them with something besides Denon, IMO.

Of course the Denon has the fully customizable version of Audyssey... but that's another story.
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