Official Pioneer SC-75/77/79 Thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 950 Old 01-24-2014, 02:48 PM
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If all DACs are the same, all power amps are the same, let's all buy the cheapest receiver we can buy. After all, they are all the same. rolleyes.gif

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post #362 of 950 Old 01-24-2014, 02:52 PM
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Bring them on. I'd be happy to clear up their confusion. I'd rather not write a book here about hearing bias and blind testing but let me just say that what I said is accurate. Those who hear differences between DACs do so without properly conducted level matched bias controlled listening tests. Like all the rest of us, hearing bias enters the picture. DACs certainly measure differently but they all do an accurate job of doing the conversion. DACs are not a reason to choose a receiver. My advice is to choose the receiver that has the features you want and will use.
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post #363 of 950 Old 01-24-2014, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

If all DACs are the same, all power amps are the same, let's all buy the cheapest receiver we can buy. After all, they are all the same. rolleyes.gif

I didn't say that. You did. My advice is to choose the receiver that has the features you want and will use. After you've done the appropriate bias controlled tests then come back and roll your eyes again. Do you have any appetite for the truth? Why not consider being an atypical industry insider?
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post #364 of 950 Old 01-24-2014, 03:33 PM
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Don't need to preach to me. I know all about the blind test etc. I have a PhD in psychoacoustics. PS: You DID say all DACs are the same, some other people (not on this thread) claim all amp sound the same. If they are all right, let's close all company and just buy entry level stuff packed with features

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post #365 of 950 Old 01-24-2014, 04:32 PM
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Sorry - quick interjection to say thanks for the feedback.

 

I have no doubt even the mid-range receivers will have more features than I'll ever use.

 

Your opinions regarding power are most reassuring.

 

The dealer/s are always on me about having excess power to have better control (whatever that means!)

 

I'm not a "blaster" type of listener anyway, although detail is important, and my preference leans towards "warm" rather than neutral reproductions.

 

I trust the Pioneer will do the job

 

(PS root of my paranoia seems to be reviews of the KEF LS50 saying they're fairly neutral monitors which will expose ANY weak link in my setup!).  I did listen to them but bought them largely on the overwhelmingly fantastic reviews.

 

Along the same vein, should I pair the SC75 with a Pioneer blue ray player (they get controlled by the same remote then?) or is there another cost effective "good" option without going the full Oppo option?

 

Does the old rule still hold true - spend 2x on speakers what you would on the receiver/amp?!

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post #366 of 950 Old 01-24-2014, 06:09 PM
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1. Unless you are willing to go with Oppo 103D ($649 in Canada), you might as well go with Sony BDP-5100 ($100 in Canada) as the later blu-ray players from Pioneer are not a good value anymore (BDP-62 is $300 in Canada) and the only good thing from having the same brand is ease of control. I'd rather spend the $200 difference in a universal remote control.

2. Just like horse power sells although you actually need torque, wattage sells when what you need is current (measured in Amperes). That aside, as 75/77/79 are identical when it comes to power amp, the 75 is more than enough to run your KEF faithfully without problem

3. Speakers: I personally don't follow that rule. My speakers vs receiver is 1:1 ratio in pricing (I use a 5.1 setup).

I wish I can spend more, but being a reviewer, the next step up for me to really be able to truly hear a drastic sound quality, I'd need to spend around $10K for the speaker setup (as opposed to $1800 right now). So I choose the spend the $8000 difference in buying and renting movies instead. biggrin.gif

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post #367 of 950 Old 01-24-2014, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

2. Just like horse power sells although you actually need torque, wattage sells when what you need is current (measured in Amperes).
I would say yes and no to this.

Yes- in both cases they are selling based on the wrong metric.

But the relationship between torque and HP, as odd as it can be (especially if we add a transmission into the mix) is still MUCH more direct and intuitive than that between amp power level and volume (even if we ignore speaker sensitivity). You are far better informed as to Pioneer's internal approach to things, but I, like you, doubt that Pioneer would go the extra expense of building different PAs for these models in return for no audible changes in sound levels. But even if these different model SC-7x amps really do have the slightly-different power levels as written in the specs, the actual impact on volume of the documented differences is going to be downright inaudible.

As stated earlier in the thread, "In order to achieve an audible difference in maximum output you would need to double the amplifier power." That's not absolute, but it is a good heuristic. The difference between the highest quoted power and the lowest quoted power for these models is MUCH MUCH less than a doubling, therefore, it is extremely unlikely that you would be able to hear any difference between them in volume at all - even if their power outputs really are different as stated in the specs.

Anyway, I think we can all agree that a salesperson who tells you that the stated power level differences between these models should be a factor in selection either is pretty ignorant about product line strategy and basic electronic/acoustic principals or is hoping like heck that YOU are.

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post #368 of 950 Old 01-24-2014, 08:01 PM
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100% in agreement with you! At the same time, people buy this and that gadgetries for their car just to add 2-3 bhp at the crank, which means virtually nothing at the wheel, especially when they're driving heavy cars to begin with biggrin.gif

In conclusion, IMO ( and absolutely not "humble"), Pioneer should've been honest with their power rating.

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post #369 of 950 Old 01-24-2014, 08:39 PM
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The reason I ask DAC because I heard SABRE32 DAC makes alot difference between new and old models.

I am still thinking SC-67 or SC-75 which one should I pick~~:rolleyes: 

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post #370 of 950 Old 01-25-2014, 05:11 AM
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I'd still pick the 75. placebo or not, I calibrated a lot of SC67 and to my ears, I still prefer the sound of SC75.

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post #371 of 950 Old 01-25-2014, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Don't need to preach to me. I know all about the blind test etc. I have a PhD in psychoacoustics. PS: You DID say all DACs are the same, some other people (not on this thread) claim all amp sound the same. If they are all right, let's close all company and just buy entry level stuff packed with features

Apparently I do. If you are an expert at psychoacoustics, then you know better than most that sighted listening tests are not very meaningful. I, at least, have tested DACs with bias controlled techniques and I'll put money that you can bring your DAC here and compare it to mine in a bias controlled test and not be able to identify them correctly. Why not do the tests yourself?
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post #372 of 950 Old 01-25-2014, 01:23 PM
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I am really curious about these Pioneer receivers. I am also really interested in the use of MCACC as well.

Overall is everyone happy with MCACC? I have read that it can be hard to get good results with it but when tweaking it you can get just as good if not better than you can with most other room correction software that is available in other AVRs.

The only other EQ that I am really interested in is ARC but the Pioneer looks like it has a better DAC in it which is really important to me. I also like that I can drive so many different zones with the Pioneer compared to the Anthem MRX line.

Trying to enjoy the simple things in life.

 

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post #373 of 950 Old 01-25-2014, 02:52 PM
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SC-75
5.1 speaker set up
Room is approx 12x20

Interested in the opinions and experiences of others in the use of X-Curve correction. My reading of the operating manual leads me to believe this adjustment is designed for use in rooms much larger than mine.

My room is not optimum for acoustics and is prone to reflections. The sound is bright. I've found that setting X-Curve to -1dB/oct has improved the sound. This is purely my impression, no measurements have been made.

Have others here used the X-Curve feature? I am interested in your experiences.
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post #374 of 950 Old 01-25-2014, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbrown3611 View Post

Interested in the opinions and experiences of others in the use of X-Curve correction. My reading of the operating manual leads me to believe this adjustment is designed for use in rooms much larger than mine.

My room is not optimum for acoustics and is prone to reflections. The sound is bright. I've found that setting X-Curve to -1dB/oct has improved the sound. This is purely my impression, no measurements have been made.

Have others here used the X-Curve feature? I am interested in your experiences.

I did try out the X-Curve and it does exactly what you would think it does. It works pretty well to reduce reflections and echo of high frequencies. It also tames bright speakers.
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post #375 of 950 Old 01-25-2014, 06:22 PM
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Kimeran, ARC is better than MCAC, there is no contest. However, the Optimum Surround (Essentially THX Loudness Plus without the THX post processing) is better in everyway in contrast to Dolby volume.

As for multizones go, the only receiver company I trust is Yamaha. Pioneer is not bad but not good either. Yes, other companies are even worse.

I know my post is not helping you to make the decision, as each company have their own strength.

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post #376 of 950 Old 01-25-2014, 10:28 PM
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Thank you David for your honesty.

The HDBaseT is one of the main things that drew me to the Pioneer for multi-zone use.

I currently have a Yamaha but it only has 2 zones which one is used for the main 5.1 system and the other is for zone 2 which is my patio right now. I am happy with it for the most part but I really dislike YPAO and in fact have it turned off. But I would like one or two more zones for music in the garage and then the bedroom.

Im trying to figure out the best way to upgrade because I want to have a receiver because I cant afford separates and even if I could, I would probably still go with an AVR.

I also only believe in EQ bellow the Schroder frequency of the room as well so thats only somewhere in the 200-400hz range....

Certainly doesnt rule the Pioneer out by a long shot though.
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post #377 of 950 Old 01-26-2014, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Kimeran, ARC is better than MCAC, there is no contest. However, the Optimum Surround (Essentially THX Loudness Plus without the THX post processing) is better in everyway in contrast to Dolby volume.

As for multizones go, the only receiver company I trust is Yamaha. Pioneer is not bad but not good either. Yes, other companies are even worse.

I know my post is not helping you to make the decision, as each company have their own strength.
As additional - but anecdotal - information on this.

I had a Yamaha Aventage 2030 briefly before my SC-63 ( which I upgraded to the SC-77 recently - big improvement.)
I had to dump the Yamaha because its HDMI handshaking was giving me fits, and the SC-63 was much more forgiving and reliable, especially when switching between HDMI inputs.
(all other components, cables, etc. were identical, of course)

This has continued to be the case with the SC-77. Since that time, I have improved the interconnection on my rig, so I wonder now if the 2030 would be ok now.

That said, I love MCACC in the 77. The phase/group delay part of it makes a huge difference in sound quality. You don't need a blind test on my rig - it is like being hit over the head when you turn it on and off. Anyone short of a deaf person can hear it. When I don't tell guests what I am doing and turn the full-band phase control off (leaving the normal phase control on, which is just the speaker delay) they say things like "Oh my god, what did you do to it? Put it back!"

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post #378 of 950 Old 01-26-2014, 12:59 PM
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has any one tried 11.2 speaker set up on their SC line of receivers? I did hook up my front wide speakers last night, so I am now in 11.1 sound surround, well sort of as the front wide speakers do not seem to get much signal sent to them compared to the front high speakers when you have it set in the menu to 9.2 speaker both front high and wide on.

If you use the the pioneer remote and use the speaker channel button it is number 7 on the remote it lets you toggle through the different speaker set up , such as front high , then front wide then both front high and wide on at the same time or no speakers at all. I must say the buttons are small on these remotes can be hard to find in the dark.

Any way there just is not that much or any sound coming from the front wide speaker when they are both are on at the same time. It is good to experiment between front high and front wide as you can hear the difference when you select these one at a time and then play the same movie clip for it, not sure what i like best yet high or wide . Had hope to hear a little more of the wides when they were both set to on. Or it could be a setting I have missed? I believe all 11.1 speakers are on as if i look at the ipad app it shows that all 11.1 speakers are sending out sound waves. The other thing i have noticed is if you do change surround sound options , you then have to go back to the speaker channel button #7 and toggle through until you get it back to 11.1 surround sound. Little things not sure if there is one setting which will keep it in 11.1

I had posted earlier that there was not much sound quality difference between the pioneer and using my Oppo 103 and amps for surround sound , but with more listening and trying out different material I definitely believe the Pioneer sounds better.
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post #379 of 950 Old 01-26-2014, 01:21 PM
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This was taken from a review by digitaltrends see link at bottom on a SC79


"After the auto calibration system had run its course, we checked the settings and cool graphs that it displayed for us. We nodded our head, furrowed our brows and nervously gnawed on our pencil as we pretended to have the faintest glimmer of an idea what it all meant. There were several colors of different lines involved, and some were flatter than others. That seemed like a good thing, except when we got out of the frequency response stuff and into the phase correction stuff – then we just weren’t sure. But it wasn’t because we skipped graph day in math class; there was a stark difference between what the graph suggested we should hear and what we actually heard.


Someone walking into our testing room that day might well have been wowed by what the SC-79 was doing with our blockbuster-movie demo material, and that’s because it sounded very good. But we knew it had to pale in comparison to what the receiver could sound like if it were set up manually. It just didn’t have the life or the flavor we expected. It sounded emotionless and very ritual about the job it was doing. This had to be fixed. We performed our manual calibration and went back over the same demo material. The difference was stark and palpable. Here was the emotion; here was the awesome. And that’s just it: When combined with good speakers set up well in even a modest-sized room, the Pioneer Elite SC-79 can either sound really good, or it can sound awesome. It can either wow people out, or blow them away."


So i have have done the auto calibration , so now i was wondering what do you think the manual calibration would have been , just fine tuning of speaker distance and db out put of each speaker ? or did they play around with the EQ for each speaker as well as i lack the knowledge or equipment to do so as i look at all the pretty graphs as well i get from the Mcacc but i do not real know what they are trying to tell me.. I am using an 1528 (sc75 ) but i should be able to make it sound awesome as well i hope then again maybe it does already.



Read more: http://www.digitaltrends.com/receivers-separates-amps-reviews/pioneer-elite-sc-79-review/#ixzz2rRj3yQf4
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post #380 of 950 Old 01-26-2014, 01:23 PM
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these are 9.1 receivers not 11.1. the front heights and front wides will not be active at the same time. the manuals all clearly state this.

you can have front heights and rears, front wides and rears but not not front heights and front wides at same time.

there is a speaker setting named FW/FH On, with the statement that use of either depends on content. however, various owners of 60 series models have tried to see it there's a flag in NeoX enhanced movies (Dredd, Expendables 2 are several) to switch between wides & heights and had no success.

plus, forum member Roger Dressler who used to work for Dolby has stated that there is no such flag in tracks. plus, I personally asked the head of marketing for home audio at Pioneer US if he knew what that statement meant or implied, and he didn't.

the only matrix processing that will derive wides & wides both is NeoX, ProLogic IIz is height's only.

if you connected both, don't expect them to work at same time because they won't. if you choose to listen to the wides, then you'll need to go into the setup menu, and set FH to No, FW to Yes. the remote speaker setting by itself will not do anything to active FW if they are turned off the speaker setup menu and vice versa. you will also see that if you set FH to Yes, FW is greyed out and vice versa,

re-read your manual on speaker configuration options, speaker config A) 9.2
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post #381 of 950 Old 01-26-2014, 01:29 PM
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^ Did you notice at least once that front wide and front high toggle automatically depending on the content?

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post #382 of 950 Old 01-26-2014, 02:36 PM
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GPC1,

The best result IMO is when you do the following:

1. Full Auto MCACC and select "Front Align"
2. Go to Manual Speaker Settings and re-do speaker system, enter speaker distance, measure SPL manually.

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post #383 of 950 Old 01-26-2014, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
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That said, I love MCACC in the 77. The phase/group delay part of it makes a huge difference in sound quality. You don't need a blind test on my rig - it is like being hit over the head when you turn it on and off. Anyone short of a deaf person can hear it. When I don't tell guests what I am doing and turn the full-band phase control off (leaving the normal phase control on, which is just the speaker delay) they say things like "Oh my god, what did you do to it? Put it back!"

I agree, but we have to tread carefully because there will always be someone who will say that unless it's a level matched, bias controlled blind test, any findings and/or opinions are not valid wink.gif

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post #384 of 950 Old 01-26-2014, 07:35 PM
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Well, I may be joining the SC-75/77/79 club soon. I have an SC-77 ordered and it should arrive mid-week. I say "may be" because I bought it to replace an SC-05 that I thought had developed serious problems only to find out I had overlooked a silly and small problem in the wiring at one of the speakers. So now my dilemma is do I return the SC-77 and stick with the 05 or sell the 05 and keep the 77. The wife is pushing for the more frugal option and she may be correct. I really like the 77, but I'm not sure I have an overwhelming need for an upgrade. So who else moved from an 05 or 07 to these newer models? Any regrets? Was it a significant (and I know that word open to interpretation) upgrade in sound quality?
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post #385 of 950 Old 01-26-2014, 07:56 PM
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I moved from 05 to 25 (can't remember why, but there was a good reason at that time) and now from 25 to 75. The sound quality upgrade is very noticable.

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post #386 of 950 Old 01-26-2014, 08:27 PM
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I am in the same spot too. I have an SC-05 and a SC-07. Haven't seen too much of a need to upgrade until now. This is mainly because it seems that Pioneer has not done a significant upgrade to MCACC, also, I guess the new features they have added haven't really grabbed me. Even though I am getting the urge to upgrade, I am thinking if I waited this long I may as well wait until the HDMI 2.0 receivers come out. Does anyone else feel the same?

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post #387 of 950 Old 01-27-2014, 05:44 AM
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The amps from the past SC series are very good. Unless you guys want new features I don't think there's any point in upgrading. The multichannel test have always went down after the SC37. Before, starting with the 05, it always went up. Yeah, yeah I know, it doesn't really matter. It's only a few db increase. But it shows how good they are.

The only way I'll think about buying a new receiver is if their new ones will EQ the sub and has individual crossovers.

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post #388 of 950 Old 01-27-2014, 06:04 AM
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I agree it was downhill from the SC-3x but starting SC-6x they're getting better again (surpassing the 0x, 2x and 3x series)

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post #389 of 950 Old 01-27-2014, 07:23 AM
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Just as a little side note to everyone who is saying that they wish MCACC Eq'd the subs...I understand your concern because you are paying for a product that has EQ and the competition all do the bass frequencies...so why shouldnt your unit?

I get it.

However, if you buy a sub that has dedicated EQ built into the amp or if you get something like the miniDSP or Behringer Feedback Destroyer, you will get much better results in the bass than you would with the built in EQ.

Sure it's an added expense but when you finally get proper bass from a well EQ'd system there is really no going back.

And none of those systems that I heard used EQ from the AVR.

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post #390 of 950 Old 01-27-2014, 07:41 AM
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I agree. My system sounds the best using a Minidsp to EQ my subs. I've had numerous other receivers that EQ'd the subwoofers and none of them (not even XT32 w/subeq) comes close to my enjoyment with how my subs are set up now using the Minidsp.
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