Official Pioneer SC-75/77/79 Thread - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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Old 05-09-2014, 01:46 PM
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I am also using a 103D and I have no issues. Hmmmm

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Old 05-09-2014, 01:49 PM
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I think SS9001 may be on to something. I do have all my HDMI set to the highest (1080p?) on all of my Oppos. But I think I also have secondary audio on. When I get back later today I'll turn both to off and see if that makes a difference, and post back!
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Old 05-09-2014, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viritrilbia View Post

The freezing display problem means the receiver is being swapped next week anyway. If the FH+SB issue remains on the new one... Well!!!!

let us know smile.gif if the receiver's got a defect anyway, then your problem could be solved soon wink.gif

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Old 05-09-2014, 01:49 PM
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I have been pretty ecstatic with using two a Martin Logan 212 Subwoofers. Very movie like atmosphere! eek.gif



I used their PBK which brought my room to another level. Working on my Review as I post this...

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Old 05-09-2014, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by CarloM View Post

I think SS9001 may be on to something. I do have all my HDMI set to the highest (1080p?) on all of my Oppos. But I think I also have secondary audio on. When I get back later today I'll turn both to off and see if that makes a difference, and post back!

also, while you're at it, just connect with HDMI 1 and see if you get that to work. in all troubleshooting, starting with simple-basic-normal setups is a good way to track down issues. if you get success just by using the main HDMI combined video-audio output to the receiver, then at least you know the Pioneer isn't doing something flaky wink.gif

Steve
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Old 05-09-2014, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I have been pretty ecstatic with using two a Martin Logan 212 Subwoofers.

joe, are those M-L electrostats? I thought you were a cone sort of guy wink.gifbiggrin.gif

I've been a planar fan for decades, only Maggies not e-stats. 20+ yrs ago I had the privilege of listening to Soundlabs at a dealer and was seriously considering them for 2 channel setup but financial sanity prevailed. they were lovely, probably the most real sounding speakers I've ever listened to but not in my price range eek.gif I have "made do" with the 2nd from the top Magnepans wink.gif fraction of the cost of Soundlabs! I've also thought about M-L Montis as fronts...thought is the operative word.

Steve
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Old 05-09-2014, 02:00 PM
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The curious thing is that as soon as I switch from DDPLIIz to DDPLIIx the SB kicks in as the FHs drop out - witnessed both by a aural check and on the iControl app status screen.
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Old 05-09-2014, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

joe, are those M-L electrostats? I thought you were a cone sort of guy wink.gifbiggrin.gif

I've been a planar fan for decades, only Maggies not e-stats. 20+ yrs ago I had the privilege of listening to Soundlabs at a dealer and was seriously considering them for 2 channel setup but financial sanity prevailed. they were lovely, probably the most real sounding speakers I've ever listened to but not in my price range eek.gif I have "made do" with the 2nd from the top Magnepans wink.gif fraction of the cost of Soundlabs! I've also thought about M-L Montis as fronts...thought is the operative word.

Yes, you are correct.

http://hstrial-jrodriguez996.homestead.com/MARTIN-LOGAN-STAGE-X-and-THEOS-SPEAKER-REVIEW.html?_=1365896687929

The best sound we definitely have heard. smile.gif

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Old 05-09-2014, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarloM View Post

Question: Does the LCD display ever say DTS HD Master (or DTS HD-Ma, or anything other than just plain DTS?). I know it can say Dolby TrueHD, so I'm just wondering why when I send a DTS HD-Master signal to my SC-79 it only says DTS. Is this standard behavior? I'm outputting bitstream from HDMI 2 from my Oppo BDP-103D. Thanks!

My setup is very similar to yours. I have an Oppo BDP-103 connected to my SC-77 by the Oppo's HDMI 2 output and Split A/V setting. Using the HDMI 2 output for audio should not cause any issues, unless there is a flaw with your BDP-103D, or unless you are using an output video resolution below 720p (this is due to an HDMI limitation as noted in the quote from the Oppo 103 manual in Steve's post above). Most likely what Steve said above about the Secondary Audio is your issue. When Secondary Audio is used the Oppo must decode the bitstream (such as DTS-HD MA) to LPCM so that it may add the secondary audio when present. For bitstream output, it will re-encode the primary/secondary mix to bitstream internally, but it is only capable of encoding original (lossy) Dolby Digital or DTS from LPCM. So if you want to use secondary audio, LPCM output should be used in order to preserve the audio quality from the lossless codecs. Otherwise, turn secondary audio off.

See the Audio Signal Reference Chart on page 65 of the BDP-103D USER MANUAL English v1.1.

Also, the screen you're showing from the Oppo's On-Screen Display is simply showing which audio track is being read from the source (disc) by the BDP-103D. This doesn't necessarily mean that the Oppo is outputting that format unmodified on either HDMI 1 or HDMI 2. To see what is being output on each HDMI output, once you have the OSD up, press the Page Up/Down on the remote to toggle to the other OSD formats until you see HDMI 1 and HDMI 2 shown on the bottom of the screen. I think those only show "bitstream" "LPCM" or "no audio," so probably wouldn't help much in your situation. This same OSD format page should show what video resolution is being output on HDMI 2 (to make sure it's 720p or higher).

On the SC-7X, it's not necessary to switch to the Standard, Direct or Pure Direct listening modes to view the source audio format. When a listening mode is displayed (THX CINEMA, DD PLIIx MOVIE, STEREO etc.) you can always press the the status button on the remote to display the source audio format (PCM, DD Digital, DTS-HD MSTR, MP3, etc.). The audio format will be displayed for several seconds before the display reverts to showing the listening mode. This is detailed under "Checking your system settings" on page 83 of the SC-77/79 Operating Instructions.

P.S. I additionally found that in the case of a 2.0 Dolby Digital source while a Direct or Pure Direct listening mode is selected that a listening mode of STEREO is displayed rather than the digital format of DD DIGITAL. DD DIGITAL will show when the status button is pressed.
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Old 05-09-2014, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

When Secondary Audio is used the Oppo must decode the bitstream (such as DTS-HD MA) to LPCM so that it may add the secondary audio when present. For bitstream output, it will re-encode the primary/secondary mix to bitstream internally, but it is only capable of encoding original (lossy) Dolby Digital or DTS from LPCM. So if you want to use secondary audio, LPCM output should be used in order to preserve the audio quality from the lossless codecs. Otherwise, turn secondary audio off.

When a listening mode is displayed (THX CINEMA, DD PLIIx MOVIE, STEREO etc.) you can always press the the status button on the remote to display the source audio format (PCM, DD Digital, DTS-HD MSTR, MP3, etc.). The audio format will be displayed for several seconds before the display reverts to showing the listening mode.

+1 to both of these. I forgot about using the status button but the main thing is display reverts back to the listening mode selected. If it's already in Direct or Standard modes, then the listening mode = the encoding.

I'm glad you think secondary audio is a possibility, I knew it could interfere with bitstreaming & had to be PCM first but since I never use it (really I don't), I didn't know for sure about the re-encode back to core Dolby & DTS but took a guess that it was a possible reason for the problem.

I've never once turned Secondary Audio on because I don't care about auto-commentaries, button sounds, etc. to me it was one of those "useless" Blu-ray features, like BD-Live. Thanks, KC, for the additional information about the player re-encoding to core Dolby & DTS. Since I've never used it, I didn't know for sure what enabling it would do but thought it was a possibility for his problem. I just knew it can't work with bitstreamed data.

Steve
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Old 05-09-2014, 04:55 PM
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Urgh...the more I read about secondary audio the more I feel like an idiot for enabling it. I figured "just in case" I ever want to hear it in use I'll keep it on, not knowing it was hampering me from hearing the HD audio codecs in their glory. And guess how many times I've used secondary audio? Yep. Zero. As soon as I get home I'm disabling it. I'm now 99% sure that's the issue, as I know that option is set to on for both my Oppo players. mad.gif
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Old 05-09-2014, 06:46 PM
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Success! Disabled secondary audio and my SC-79 now displays DTS-HD MSTR. Thanks for helping me to figure this out!
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Old 05-09-2014, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarloM View Post

Success! Disabled secondary audio and my SC-79 now displays DTS-HD MSTR. Thanks for helping me to figure this out!

Awesomeness. smile.gif

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Old 05-10-2014, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by CarloM View Post

Success! Disabled secondary audio and my SC-79 now displays DTS-HD MSTR. Thanks for helping me to figure this out!

congratulations! smile.gif

Steve
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Old 05-11-2014, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Viritrilbia View Post

The curious thing is that as soon as I switch from DDPLIIz to DDPLIIx the SB kicks in as the FHs drop out - witnessed both by a aural check and on the iControl app status screen.
. Sorry to keep coming back on this...but have confirmed my problem is not from the Oppo as it appears on all inputs delivering 5.1. The status screen shows speaker setup is 9.1 but best output I'm getting is 7.2 with the SB disappearing (aurally and on the iControl status picture) on every setting in which the FHs come in. A clue might be that in the iControl status speaker screen there is no distance figure next to the SB even when it is engaged! I have tried manually changing the SB distance to see if it affects anything, no joy. Have also tried rewiring the SB speaker connection - also no joy - though no surprise there as non FH settings and the test tones show the SB is connected and working. ANY suggestions welcome.
Meanwhile, the display freezing is not happening today so far...but I'm still going for the receiver swap on Tuesday unless the FH+SB problem is solved.
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Old 05-11-2014, 08:14 AM
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Update! I have a single SB connected to SB left. I've just tried changing the speaker setup so the 79 thinks there are two SBs, left and right. BINGO! The iControl and aural confirmation show 9.2 (well 9.1 actually as only one SW) with both FHs and the SB engaged. A great result. Except presumably now whatever is fed to SB right is being lost rather than mixed into the single SB. Anyone suggest how I resolve this? And is it a fault with the 79 or its manual re use of a single SB?
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Old 05-11-2014, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Viritrilbia View Post

Update! I have a single SB connected to SB left. I've just tried changing the speaker setup so the 79 thinks there are two SBs, left and right. BINGO! The iControl and aural confirmation show 9.2 (well 9.1 actually as only one SW) with both FHs and the SB engaged. A great result. Except presumably now whatever is fed to SB right is being lost rather than mixed into the single SB. Anyone suggest how I resolve this? And is it a fault with the 79 or its manual re use of a single SB?

it's not a defect and there's no "resolution" per se. your setup is what it is.

with one back channel, you have a 6.1 surround back setup not a left-right back setup. so if you are using PLIIx/z, NeoX, right ch back is just lost because you have only 1 speaker. for true 6.1 playback, Dolby EX, THX Surround EX, DTS-ES Matrix and the older DTS Neo6 are the 6.1 formats and those will be the ones that will send a monophonic blended rear channel. all the rest assume you have 2 back channels, including THX Cinema, although a THX speaker configuration kind of makes 2 speakers into 1 by having them very close together.

I'm not sure if somehow the Pioneer detects only 1 SB and then somehow blends the 2 together since I've never had a single SB; it's possible, I guess.

in the real world, you really aren't going to miss much because of 1 back speaker, since rear channels are for the vast vast majority of the time are derived from the sides. only with a true 7.1 track will you "lose" right rear but candidly, the way the studios use 7.1, in my experience with 7.1 BD tracks, its practically monophonic anyway. In all my BD's with 7.1, I can't tell much separation if any at all and they tend to be used with special effect sound, like gunshots, flyby's, etc and are so quick and transient, that by the time you hear a sound going from a side to the rear, it's only a fleeting sound and then gone. only 7.1 music would be an issue and even that, very rare to find 7.1 music tracks wink.gif and those that exist tend to be classical or jazz and the rears and sides are mostly used for hall ambience.

most importantly, if you really want left-right rears, then buy the 2nd speaker wink.gif

the Pioneer uses standard decoding, standard processing, no different than anyone else in the industry. all the decoder code is embedded in DSP chips from an OEM chip mfg and everyone is using same kinds of DSP processors, if not the same exact mfg & model number. it's all been standardized many years ago so Pioneer isn't doing anything weird. it's how Dolby & DTS implement surround processing.

Steve
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Old 05-11-2014, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

it's not a defect and there's no "resolution" per se. your setup is what it is.

with one back channel, you have a 6.1 surround back setup not a left-right back setup. so if you are using PLIIx/z, NeoX, right ch back is just lost because you have only 1 speaker. for true 6.1 playback, Dolby EX, THX Surround EX and the older DTS Neo6 are the 6.1 formats and those will be the only ones that will send a monophonic blended rear channel. all the rest assume you have 2 back channels, including THX Cinema, although a THX speaker configuration kind of makes 2 speakers into 1 by having them very close together.

first, in the real world, you really aren't going to miss much because of 1 back speaker, since rear channels are for the vast vast majority of the time are derived from the sides. only with a true 7.1 track will you "lose" right rear but candidly, the way the studios use 7.1, in my experience with 7.1 BD tracks, its practically monophonic anyway. In all my BD's with 7.1, I can't tell much separation if any at all and they tend to be used with special effect sound, like gunshots, flyby's, etc and are so quick and transient, that by the time you hear a sound going from a side to the rear, it's only a fleeting sound and then gone. only 7.1 music would be an issue and even that, very rare to find 7.1 music tracks wink.gif and those that exist tend to be classical or jazz and the rears and sides are mostly used for hall ambience.

secondly & most importantly, if you really want left-right rears, then buy the 2nd speaker wink.gif

the Pioneer uses standard decoding, standard processing, no different than anyone else in the industry. all the decoder code is embedded in DSP chips from an OEM chip mfg and everyone is using same kinds of DSP processors, if not the same exact mfg & model number. it's all been standardized many years ago so Pioneer isn't doing anything weird. it's how Dolby & DTS implement surround processing.
I hope you're right about not missing much. But I think you need to read what I write rather than jump to the conclusion that I or my setup are wrong in some way, as you've done in posts 799, 807 and again now. A single SB is a perfectly fine setup, with many discs only 6.1 in any case. The manual says I should connect my single SB to SBLeft, also specifically marked "single". I have done that and it doesn't work. So either Pioneer are wrong in their manual or my receiver is defective.
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Old 05-11-2014, 10:30 AM
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Can anyone else with a single SB tell me if theirs works ok in a 9.1 setup?
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Old 05-11-2014, 10:34 AM
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Well... 8.1 of course in reality!
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Old 05-11-2014, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Viritrilbia View Post

I hope you're right about not missing much. But I think you need to read what I write rather than jump to the conclusion that I or my setup are wrong in some way, as you've done in posts 799, 807 and again now. A single SB is a perfectly fine setup, with many discs only 6.1 in any case. The manual says I should connect my single SB to SBLeft, also specifically marked "single". I have done that and it doesn't work. So either Pioneer are wrong in their manual or my receiver is defective.

I do read what you write and continue to do. and yes, I know 6.1 is OK setup. just to be fair, until your last 2 posts, you never stated you had a 6.1 setup so I concluded the setup was the culprit. I can only go by what people write smile.gif if you had posted this new info at the beginning, me and others would have a clearer idea of what your setup is and answer accordingly.

garbage in = garbage out. don't expect me or others to say your setup is perfectly fine and the receiver has to be defective, until you provide all the info. I get tired of people telling me I'm wrong or jumping to conclusions when they didn't tell the whole story and only at the end say..."oh yeah, I also have this & did this too" I also get tired of seeing people "jump to conclusions" and assume Pioneer (or any other company) fuc*ed up & has to be at fault when 99% of the time, it comes down to setup problems, the person made a mistake or they misunderstand a feature, NOT defects rolleyes.gif just like your fellow poster who thought his receiver wasn't right when he got was dts not dts-ma; as you read, it was the player setting that was the culprit.

since I have never used a single SB speaker, I can't help you so unless I find some more info that could help you, I'll bow out of the discussion and let someone else help you. You don't seem to like my help anyway, even tho I'm one of the more experienced Pioneer owners in this forum.

good luck.

Steve
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Old 05-11-2014, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viritrilbia View Post

Update! I have a single SB connected to SB left. I've just tried changing the speaker setup so the 79 thinks there are two SBs, left and right. BINGO! The iControl and aural confirmation show 9.2 (well 9.1 actually as only one SW) with both FHs and the SB engaged. A great result. Except presumably now whatever is fed to SB right is being lost rather than mixed into the single SB. Anyone suggest how I resolve this? And is it a fault with the 79 or its manual re use of a single SB?

I think it was previously confirmed in this or a related thread that the use of a single SB speaker was incompatible with the PLIIz and Neo:X listening modes (which derive the FH or FW channels). In other words, when only one surround back speaker is connected it will not operate simultaneously with FH or FW channels, which appears to be exactly the results you are getting. I apologize that I can't find those posts right now.

While I can't find that it is explicitly stated in the operating instructions, I believe it may be subtly implied by the note "a Unavailable with only one surround back speaker connected." on the bottom of page 124 in the SC77/79 Operating Instructions, although this really isn't clear.
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Old 05-11-2014, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

I do read what you write and continue to do. and yes, I know 6.1 is OK setup. just to be fair, until your last 2 posts, you never stated you had a 6.1 setup so I concluded the setup was the culprit. I can only go by what people write smile.gif if you had posted this new info at the beginning, me and others would have a clearer idea of what your setup is and answer accordingly.

garbage in = garbage out. don't expect me or others to say your setup is perfectly fine and the receiver has to be defective, until you provide all the info. I get tired of people telling me I'm wrong or jumping to conclusions when they didn't tell the whole story and only at the end say..."oh yeah, I also have this & did this too" I also get tired of reading people "jump to conclusions" and assume Pioneer (or any other company) fuc*ed up & has to be at fault when 99% of the time, it comes down to setup problems or the person made a mistake, NOT defects rolleyes.gif

since I have never used a single SB speaker, I can't help you so unless I find some more info that could help you, I'll bow out of the discussion and let someone else help you. You don't seem to like my help anyway, even tho I'm one of the more experienced Pioneer owners in this forum.

good luck.
All my posts referred to FHs and a SB. Your "help" would have been more appreciated if it wasn't patronisingly assuming that I'd made a silly mistake. That was always one possibility of course... But seems to have turned out not to be the case.
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Old 05-11-2014, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

I think it was previously confirmed in this or a related thread that the use of a single SB speaker was incompatible with the PLIIz and Neo:X listening modes (which derive the FH or FW channels). In other words, when only one surround back speaker is connected it will not operate simultaneously with FH or FW channels, which appears to be exactly the results you are getting. I apologize that I can't find those posts right now.

While I can't find that it is explicitly stated in the operating instructions, I believe it may be subtly implied by the note "a Unavailable with only one surround back speaker connected." on the bottom of page 124 in the SC77/79 Operating Instructions, although this really isn't clear.

glad you agree, once again smile.gif

as to the poster who thinks I'm jumping to conclusions, if you are correct, once again, it proves my point that one of the issues with so-called problems is people not understanding or reading the fine print. I may not know everything, but I do know a lot, and read manuals.

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Old 05-11-2014, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Viritrilbia View Post

All my posts referred to FHs and a SB. Your "help" would have been more appreciated if it wasn't patronisingly assuming that I'd made a silly mistake. That was always one possibility of course... But seems to have turned out not to be the case.

read KC's post. it was you who assumed that your Pioneer was faulty not I. and it was you who assumed that is has to work the way you think it should, when he found the evidence it won't. not clearly stated, I agree, but it's there.

sorry if I offend you, I am what I am. my post wasn't patronizing, at the time, that's all I had to go with because I couldn't think of any reason why you wouldn't get SB and FH at the same time...my experience with and knowledge of Pioneer's told me otherwise.

forgive me that I missed the "a" in "a SB". do you read every letter? if you had said "I have a 6.1 setup" that is pretty clearly stated and not subject to missing something. Let's face it, I rubbed you the wrong way and for that, I apologize. I was trying to help you by forcing you to review all the steps in your setup to make sure you didn't make a mistake, no different than anyone doing Troubleshooting 101.

Steve
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Old 05-11-2014, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

glad you agree, once again smile.gif

as to the poster who thinks I'm jumping to conclusions, if you are correct, once again, it proves my point that one of the issues with so-called problems is people not understanding or reading the fine print. I may not know everything, but I do know a lot, and read manuals.

I wish I could find the posts where this was previously discussed. It wasn't an easy one to figure out. The manual really doesn't give enough information about this.
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Old 05-11-2014, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

I think it was previously confirmed in this or a related thread that the use of a single SB speaker was incompatible with the PLIIz and Neo:X listening modes (which derive the FH or FW channels). In other words, when only one surround back speaker is connected it will not operate simultaneously with FH or FW channels, which appears to be exactly the results you are getting. I apologize that I can't find those posts right now.

While I can't find that it is explicitly stated in the operating instructions, I believe it may be subtly implied by the note "a Unavailable with only one surround back speaker connected." on the bottom of page 124 in the SC77/79 Operating Instructions, although this really isn't clear.
Thanks. That would confirm my experience if so. Though the reference on p124 does not explicitly relate to settings using height speakers.
Haven't seen any posts of the type you mention in this forum. Also, I used 6.1 with my Marantz SR6003 and it was fine with DD EX and PL IIx settings. I think p124 only relates to the Auto Surround/ALC and Direct/Pure Direct settings on the 79. But unless someone with a single SB plus FHs can tell me otherwise, I think there is a defect with the manual or my receiver. I may end up buying a new pair of SBs if the former, as I'd have trouble finding a single to match what I have. And the 79 is superb in every other way!
If you do find the posts you mention I'd be very grateful.
Thanks.
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Old 05-11-2014, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

I think it was previously confirmed in this or a related thread that the use of a single SB speaker was incompatible with the PLIIz and Neo:X listening modes (which derive the FH or FW channels). In other words, when only one surround back speaker is connected it will not operate simultaneously with FH or FW channels, which appears to be exactly the results you are getting. I apologize that I can't find those posts right now.

While I can't find that it is explicitly stated in the operating instructions, I believe it may be subtly implied by the note "a Unavailable with only one surround back speaker connected." on the bottom of page 124 in the SC77/79 Operating Instructions, although this really isn't clear.

As goofy as this reads I used to "trick" the receiver into believing there were two backs. That was when I had one Surround Back. I would hook up another speaker close to it and when I did set up it had me down for two. Afterwards when I would select whatever sound mode I liked I had sound! Most models wouldn't send sound to my one surround back when I picked those modes. Was unsettling when I wanted to pick Height sound with football. Mission was accomplished!

Of course these days I now have two awesome Martin Logan Axis speakers for my Backs. smile.gif

For my latest Reviews and Stuff google -> Joe Rod Home Theater .Com
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Old 05-11-2014, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Viritrilbia View Post

Thanks. That would confirm my experience if so. Though the reference on p124 does not explicitly relate to settings using height speakers.

Haven't seen any posts of the type you mention in this forum....1. I used 6.1 with my Marantz SR6003 and it was fine with DD EX and PL IIx settings. 2. I think p124 only relates to the Auto Surround/ALC and Direct/Pure Direct settings on the 79.

on #1, your Pioneer will also work with a SB with Dolby EX and also PLIIx. EX is monophonic which is what I stated several posts ago. IIx will also give you sound from the rear with your Pioneer but I'm not sure it will be left+right; I think it'll only be left but not 100% sure.

on #2, in looking at the manual, I agree with you. it doesn't reference FH in that table, only ALC, Direct, Pure Direct. totally unclear how one SB will work with FH. you are right about that.

you have my curiosity up so I'm going to do some more reading on my own and if I find something which may help you with the setup, I'll post it for you.

Steve
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Old 05-11-2014, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

glad you agree, once again smile.gif

as to the poster who thinks I'm jumping to conclusions, if you are correct, once again, it proves my point that one of the issues with so-called problems is people not understanding or reading the fine print. I may not know everything, but I do know a lot, and read manuals.
KC-Technerd was making quite a different point. Not "agreeing" with you, actually. And I read the page he refers to... See my reply to his helpful post.
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