Krell Foundation Owners Thread - Page 63 - AVS Forum
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post #1861 of 2507 Old 07-21-2014, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by gulliBELL View Post
All my 2ch music listening is with the source player connected to the Halcro pre-amp (with the Foundation out of the equation). Which is why the sub is connected as it is.
Have you done a A/B comparison between the Halcro and the Foundation? Just like you I have a much more expensive pre-amp for 2 channel but I don't use a sub when I listen to two channel.
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post #1862 of 2507 Old 07-21-2014, 07:03 PM
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So my family deserted me to go to our lake house for the summer and I miss them but...... The Foundation and the rest of my system rocks! Makes it much better listening to music tonight even though only in stereo(because my one power amp is on the blink). I wish everyone can hear what the Foundation does to a system!😃
I will again shortly. Along with a Chorus 7200.
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post #1863 of 2507 Old 07-21-2014, 07:16 PM
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I will again shortly. Along with a Chorus 7200.
Can't wait for your opinion on the chorus!
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post #1864 of 2507 Old 07-21-2014, 07:54 PM
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Yeah I have halo amps now. I love them. I had a Citation amp a long time ago and hated it. I sold it within a few months. It was hyped so much. I hope this is not the same. By next weekend I will know. If there was any dealers even remotely close to me I would have auditioned first.
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post #1865 of 2507 Old 07-21-2014, 08:00 PM
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Yeah I have halo amps now. I love them. I had a Citation amp a long time ago and hated it. I sold it within a few months. It was hyped so much. I hope this is not the same. By next weekend I will know. If there was any dealers even remotely close to me I would have auditioned first.
If it's anything like the Foundation you'll like it. Just worried about the fans. Remember Krell started with excellent amps! Hopefully they'll continue the tradition and not lose it to Dan. All my amps are Krell and I love them!!!
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post #1866 of 2507 Old 07-21-2014, 09:20 PM
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I am not worried about the fans. I wont hear them. I have my stuff in a rack with the back in a equipment closet. And that closet has acoustic insulation.
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post #1867 of 2507 Old 07-21-2014, 09:36 PM
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Have you done a A/B comparison between the Halcro and the Foundation? Just like you I have a much more expensive pre-amp for 2 channel but I don't use a sub when I listen to two channel.
The configurations between Halcro and Foundation are completely different:

A. source player analog out > Halcro pre-amp > amps/speakers (Foundation is off)

B. source player HDMI out > Foundation > (Halcro pre-amp HT bypass) > amps/speakers

In other words: configuration A uses the Kaleidescape player internal DAC and the Halcro pre-amp; Configuration B uses only the Foundation as a DAC and pre-amp.

Configuration A and B sound virtually identical, but only if ARES EQ in the Foundation is OFF (because ARES EQ stucks the life out of the bass). I only use configuration B for those audio contents where the analog outputs of the Kaleidescape player are disabled (by design, eg Bluray audio).

I have ordered a new PS Audio DirectStream DAC to incorporate into configuration A as the only room for improvement is to replace the Kaleidescape player internal DAC with an external DAC (even though the Kaleidescape internal DAC is outstanding). Depending whether I'm happy with the PS Audio DAC a local dealer has given me the option of trading in my spare pair of Halcro dm78 power amps on the new Soulution 7-series DAC that should be out later this year. I reckon the Soulution DAC + Halcro dm8/88 + Wilson speakers would be a killer 2ch rig (which would probably leave me tempted to replace the Wilson with Magico S-series speakers).

"My interest in home theater is not only that it annoys the wife, but if it was, then that would be enough"

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post #1868 of 2507 Old 07-21-2014, 10:15 PM
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I will again shortly. Along with a Chorus 7200.
wow nice, so you are getting both then very cool I want a chorus but my amp is not in a closet...
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post #1869 of 2507 Old 07-21-2014, 11:17 PM
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Yes I cant wait. The stepson decided to go to community college for two years close by. My son and grandchildren finally moved out. And payed off a credit card. So here comes the Foundation and Chorus. I will take pics. Just hope it is not harsh sounding like that Citation was. If it is pure class A I should love it. I might have to find a way to vent my equipment closet though.
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post #1870 of 2507 Old 07-21-2014, 11:57 PM
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...If it is pure class A I should love it..
especially in winter

"My interest in home theater is not only that it annoys the wife, but if it was, then that would be enough"
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post #1871 of 2507 Old 07-22-2014, 03:28 AM
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Yep
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post #1872 of 2507 Old 07-22-2014, 07:16 AM
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Yes I cant wait. The stepson decided to go to community college for two years close by. My son and grandchildren finally moved out. And payed off a credit card. So here comes the Foundation and Chorus. I will take pics. Just hope it is not harsh sounding like that Citation was. If it is pure class A I should love it. I might have to find a way to vent my equipment closet though.
I would be surprised if it sounds harsh!
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post #1873 of 2507 Old 07-22-2014, 07:18 AM
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Gosh I hope not. I cant stand harsh or forward or anything like that. It makes me cringe.
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post #1874 of 2507 Old 07-22-2014, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by RBFC View Post
The issue with DirecTV has affected the 707, the S1200, and the Foundation. The problem is not that DirectV "doesn't work" via HDMI, but that their implementation may be a bit antiquated compared to the modern generation of processors. Remember that HDMI handshake requires compatibility between devices, and any slight inconsistency will result in issues. Krell even went to extreme lengths to acquire a Genie from DirecTV (not provided for business accounts) so that they can examine the HDMI behavior from this newer device.

My opinion is to give them time to sort this out. They have demonstrated a commitment to addressing every confirmed issue with the Foundation, and they sometimes just don't fix everything as fast as we would like. I do, however, wish that notifications of software updates and the issues involved would be published.

Lee
More good info on this subject. Thanks for chiming in. When these incidents occur and the handshake is lost (they give each other a fist pump instead) does it do any damage to the Foundation, or is it just as if you pulled the plug on the HD receiver?
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post #1875 of 2507 Old 07-22-2014, 12:16 PM
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I will again shortly. Along with a Chorus 7200.
Which Halo models are you running? I am running A21 and A51. Will be interested to hear difference between Chorus and A21/31/51. Or are you running the JC mono blocks?
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post #1876 of 2507 Old 07-22-2014, 12:26 PM
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wow nice, so you are getting both then very cool I want a chorus but my amp is not in a closet...
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Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
Yes I cant wait. The stepson decided to go to community college for two years close by. My son and grandchildren finally moved out. And payed off a credit card. So here comes the Foundation and Chorus. I will take pics. Just hope it is not harsh sounding like that Citation was. If it is pure class A I should love it. I might have to find a way to vent my equipment closet though.
My understanding is that the Chorus 5200 and 7200 are actually class A/B designs. I know they aren't advertised that way, but in talking with Krell it sounds like those two amps are A/B. I don't think they run in class A at all, but I could be wrong.
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post #1877 of 2507 Old 07-22-2014, 03:33 PM
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What they better not be. I was sure they were all class A.

I know there is no mention of a/b even in the big write up on Krell's website. And this pertains on that page, to just the trio and the two Chorus amps. It says class A. I am going to go right now and reread it.
The halo amps I have now are just the A23 and A52. I bought the A23 as an interim amp a long time ago. I loved it so much I could never sell it. Just 1 year ago I bought the A52 to match it.
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post #1878 of 2507 Old 07-22-2014, 03:48 PM
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Ok reread it. It says class A ibias. It is a space heater. I think the difference is they may not be dual differential designs as they almost double down but not all the way. I think it is 200 into 8 then 375 into 4. The stereo and mono amps all double down.

But the Chorus models say they are fully balanced designs. The difference is the size of the transformers in the multichannel models. I believe the transformers are a bit smaller. And the wall current can't handle the wattage on a typical 15 amp circuit. Lucky for me I have a 50a circuit going to my equipment closet.
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post #1879 of 2507 Old 07-22-2014, 04:16 PM
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What they better not be. I was sure they were all class A.

I know there is no mention of a/b even in the big write up on Krell's website. And this pertains on that page, to just the trio and the two Chorus amps. It says class A. I am going to go right now and reread it.
The halo amps I have now are just the A23 and A52. I bought the A23 as an interim amp a long time ago. I loved it so much I could never sell it. Just 1 year ago I bought the A52 to match it.
I know, but in talking to Patrick at Krell, he told me the 5200 and 7200 were class AB. The rest are class A biased.

I've really thought about the foundation and a 5200, but between issues people are having with the foundation and the fans and class a/b of the 5200 I'm really torn.
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post #1880 of 2507 Old 07-22-2014, 04:55 PM
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The problems aren't bad at all I think. It is only a few people having issues with directv. I have the newer box from directv so I will be anle to check mine when it gets here. My old one had only two minor issues that were fixed with a firmware update very quickly after I notified them. Within about three days I believe.

You wont beat the sound of the Foundation until you get to a bunch more money. And that is debatable.

And on the Chorus page it even says fully balanced and class a ibias. That would be false advertising.

I think maybe Patrick is mistaken. At least he better be. What then is there on the Chorus series of amps besides the name to justify the price. If it is not an ibias class a amp what is it? There is no mention of a/b anywhere when describing the Chorus amps. Even at CES I believe it was identified as an class a amp. Hmmm.
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post #1881 of 2507 Old 07-22-2014, 06:15 PM
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The problems aren't bad at all I think. It is only a few people having issues with directv. I have the newer box from directv so I will be anle to check mine when it gets here. My old one had only two minor issues that were fixed with a firmware update very quickly after I notified them. Within about three days I believe.

You wont beat the sound of the Foundation until you get to a bunch more money. And that is debatable.

And on the Chorus page it even says fully balanced and class a ibias. That would be false advertising.

I think maybe Patrick is mistaken. At least he better be. What then is there on the Chorus series of amps besides the name to justify the price. If it is not an ibias class a amp what is it? There is no mention of a/b anywhere when describing the Chorus amps. Even at CES I believe it was identified as an class a amp. Hmmm.
Of course the web site also says the Foundation has one coax audio output and one toslink audio output....of course it does not.


Outputs
Analog Audio
(9) Balanced via XLR Connectors
R, L, C, SR, SL, SBR, SBL, S1, S2
(9) Single-ended via RCA Connectors
R, L, C, SR, SL, SBR, SBL, S1, S2
(1) Zone 2 Output
(2) Single-ended via RCA connectors

Digital Audio
(1) EIAJ optical via TosLink connector
(1) Coaxial via RCA connector

Digital Video
(2) HDMI via HDMI connector
Both Include Audio Return Channel
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post #1882 of 2507 Old 07-22-2014, 06:30 PM
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Yeah I just scoured the web and every setup and writeup said Krell Chorus amps were class A ibias amps. I have gone through about 8 pages and not one mention of anything but.

I am not saying your wrong. I am just saying that this would be false advertising in a big way.

Also found a few sites where they have not cut and pasted and both chorus amps in there specs, list class a ibias technology as there features. So something is fishy here.

Kal Rubinson please help!
You have talked to Bill McKiegan I believe about the new amps. Did he say that the Chorus amps were not class a ibias? Did he say they were class a/b?
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post #1883 of 2507 Old 07-22-2014, 06:44 PM
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Yeah I just scoured the web and every setup and writeup said Krell Chorus amps were class A ibias amps. I have gone through about 8 pages and not one mention of anything but.

I am not saying your wrong. I am just saying that this would be false advertising in a big way.

Also found a few sites where they have not cut and pasted and both chorus amps in there specs, list class a ibias technology as there features. So something is fishy here.

Kal Rubinson please help!
You have talked to Bill McKiegan I believe about the new amps. Did he say that the Chorus amps were not class a ibias? Did he say they were class a/b?
I totally agree, everything out there says Class A bias. I'm just going on what I believe Patrick was telling me. I sincerely hope they are class A biased, because the Foundation is awfully appealing on a lot of levels, and having a matching amp would be very cool.

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post #1884 of 2507 Old 07-22-2014, 08:27 PM
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Kal Rubinson please help!
You have talked to Bill McKiegan I believe about the new amps.
I have not. Sorry.

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post #1885 of 2507 Old 07-22-2014, 11:02 PM
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The configurations between Halcro and Foundation are completely different:

A. source player analog out > Halcro pre-amp > amps/speakers (Foundation is off)

B. source player HDMI out > Foundation > (Halcro pre-amp HT bypass) > amps/speakers

In other words: configuration A uses the Kaleidescape player internal DAC and the Halcro pre-amp; Configuration B uses only the Foundation as a DAC and pre-amp.

Configuration A and B sound virtually identical, but only if ARES EQ in the Foundation is OFF (because ARES EQ stucks the life out of the bass). I only use configuration B for those audio contents where the analog outputs of the Kaleidescape player are disabled (by design, eg Bluray audio).

I have ordered a new PS Audio DirectStream DAC to incorporate into configuration A as the only room for improvement is to replace the Kaleidescape player internal DAC with an external DAC (even though the Kaleidescape internal DAC is outstanding). Depending whether I'm happy with the PS Audio DAC a local dealer has given me the option of trading in my spare pair of Halcro dm78 power amps on the new Soulution 7-series DAC that should be out later this year. I reckon the Soulution DAC + Halcro dm8/88 + Wilson speakers would be a killer 2ch rig (which would probably leave me tempted to replace the Wilson with Magico S-series speakers).
Interesting. I bought the Foundation in large part because of how fantastic it sounds as an analog only 2 channel preamplifier. I was tired of using my Conrad Johnson CA200 as an integrated amplifier for 2 channel sources and as a power amplifier with my old Rotel processor for multichannel/HT (using the CA200's fixed gain theater input). I found the Foundation added no noise or coloration or grain whatsoever to the beautifully neutral CA200, while increasing the dynamics and sense of detail. So, I am selling the CA200 integrated and am now using my CJ MF2250 power amp, which I like as much or more than the CA200, for the left and right channels with the Foundation as the preamp and processor. If I were going to keep the CA200 in the system as I'd been using it, I would have sold the MF2250 and probably bought a newer Rotel or NAD as the processor to save the dough. That said, the Foundation is of course better than the Rotel as a processor, but the gap is greater for 2 channel music in my opinion.

It would be interesting to hear how the Foundation compares as a 2 channel preamp to your Halcro. I know your system is not set up that way, but you could compare by just swapping around a few cables?
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post #1886 of 2507 Old 07-22-2014, 11:34 PM
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Yeah I just scoured the web and every setup and writeup said Krell Chorus amps were class A ibias amps. I have gone through about 8 pages and not one mention of anything but.

I am not saying your wrong. I am just saying that this would be false advertising in a big way.

Also found a few sites where they have not cut and pasted and both chorus amps in there specs, list class a ibias technology as there features. So something is fishy here.

Kal Rubinson please help!
You have talked to Bill McKiegan I believe about the new amps. Did he say that the Chorus amps were not class a ibias? Did he say they were class a/b?
I have to say that Krell MUST do a better job of getting information out to potential customers, even if it means having Bill or Patrick visit this forum from time to time.

My first jolt was to learn that my unit is not a 4k unit, which my dealer had told me it was (which he'd heard from Krell). OK, no big deal for me, because I just bought a 65 inch 1080p (non-4k) TV and wanted the lower priced Foundation anyway, and it does have DSD. So, no harm no foul.

But then someone reports that Patrick said the warranty is not transferrable, which is not stated anywhere within the published warranty description on Krell's website. That's not cool.

Now there are these questions about whether the Chorus amps are Class A or Class A/B, with Patrick supposedly stating that they are the latter. And since he's the head of sales and marketing at Krell, presumably he knows. If not, that's another shocker.

And is it just the Chorus or all of the new iBias amps? There is a long thread on the preamp/amp forum over at AudioAsylum.com. The thread was initiated by a guy who was expessing his excitement about purchasing the new Vanguard integrated, which I'd not even heard of but apparently is shipping(!!), but then a number of posters stated that the whole iBias technology is not really Class A at all and is not particularly novel. They also pointed out that the published output current of all of the new iBias amps are a lot lower than the Evolution or older amps were (and in fact lower than many less expensive A/B power amps), and then they claimed that the published current could not support Class A up to the stated power ratings. I have no idea about the ultimate claims, but the published output current does seem low for these new amps compared to Krell's older amps, with the Chorus amps being the lowest. The poor OP in that thread ended up getting cold feet based on all the swarm of negativity and cancelled his order! A perfect example of social media and the internet leading to terminal "audio nervosa". Terminal to the sale of the Vanguard integrated, that is. You can check out the thread - I'm JoshT on AudioAsylum and challenged some of the naysayers, but apparently the OP ended up joining them.

None of this is to say that the Chorus amps don't sound amazing. I am sure they do actually. And who knows whether the naysayers were full of sh#t and just having fun bashing the new Krell and crushing the enthusiasm of a poster? The internet is full of nasty people and trolls and it's not always clear who is who. And, in fact, everyone I've heard from who has auditioned the Chorus amps says they sound wonderful, including a guy who owns one of the top Evolution amps. He thought the Chorus sounded amazing in a demo room driving big Martin Logans. I am still very eager to audition one at some point when my budget permits further upgrades, and am confident I'll be impressed and intend to get one.

But Krell has to address these issues, and in the days of social media they should be doing it here and over at AudioAsylum and other sites.
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post #1887 of 2507 Old 07-23-2014, 05:03 AM
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This is all good to know on the bug fixes.

I guess this new ibias is going to be very controversial. Just like the Foundation was. I think the Foundation has proven a lot of people wrong. I guess ibias is next up. I did notice the current of these new amps is low for how much published power they have.

I guess I will wait and when I recieve it I will give it a fair shake. I will report here.

I guess from what I have been reading these amps have a very nice midrange and treble. This thing puts out 10000 btu per hour. That is a bunch of heat. So it does have some characteristics of class a
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post #1888 of 2507 Old 07-23-2014, 08:57 AM
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This is all good to know on the bug fixes.

I guess this new ibias is going to be very controversial. Just like the Foundation was. I think the Foundation has proven a lot of people wrong. I guess ibias is next up. I did notice the current of these new amps is low for how much published power they have.

I guess I will wait and when I recieve it I will give it a fair shake. I will report here.

I guess from what I have been reading these amps have a very nice midrange and treble. This thing puts out 10000 btu per hour. That is a bunch of heat. So it does have some characteristics of class a
Perhaps everyone is making too big of a deal on Class A amps. I have read that today's well designed Class A/B amplifiers sound the same or better than Class A amps that consume too much power.
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post #1889 of 2507 Old 07-23-2014, 09:01 AM
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^ gbaby I sure hope your right. I will know soon enough I guess.

The new amp will have to work hard to impress me as much as my a23 does. I never have been able to hear the upper model halo amps. But the bottom one sounds great to me.
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post #1890 of 2507 Old 07-23-2014, 11:56 AM
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Krell MAY be employing a sliding bias scheme, where the amp operates in pure Class A up to a certain wattage (or other determining factor), then gradually transitions into Class A/B for efficiency at high power output levels. Since most listening is done with very few watts, it would be reasonable to assume that we'll get Class A for most listening.

This is all supposition and educated guess.

Lee

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