Krell Foundation Owners Thread - Page 64 - AVS Forum
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post #1891 of 2231 Old 07-23-2014, 10:56 AM
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Krell MAY be employing a sliding bias scheme, where the amp operates in pure Class A up to a certain wattage (or other determining factor), then gradually transitions into Class A/B for efficiency at high power output levels. Since most listening is done with very few watts, it would be reasonable to assume that we'll get Class A for most listening.

This is all supposition and educated guess.

Lee

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post #1892 of 2231 Old 07-23-2014, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RBFC View Post
Krell MAY be employing a sliding bias scheme, where the amp operates in pure Class A up to a certain wattage (or other determining factor), then gradually transitions into Class A/B for efficiency at high power output levels. Since most listening is done with very few watts, it would be reasonable to assume that we'll get Class A for most listening.

This is all supposition and educated guess.

Lee
I think you're right. As long as it sounds as good or better than their old amps!
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post #1893 of 2231 Old 07-23-2014, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RBFC View Post
Krell MAY be employing a sliding bias scheme, where the amp operates in pure Class A up to a certain wattage (or other determining factor), then gradually transitions into Class A/B for efficiency at high power output levels. Since most listening is done with very few watts, it would be reasonable to assume that we'll get Class A for most listening.

This is all supposition and educated guess.

Lee
rhale64L7, this is what your current A23 amp does (and my A21 and A51). They are class A up to a certain wattage. I suspect you will be happy with Chorus even if it does this as well.
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post #1894 of 2231 Old 07-23-2014, 04:41 PM
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Just listened to a recording from Reference Recordings, Pomp & Pipes. Absolutely amazing with the Foundation. If you don't have it I would highly recommend it even just for showcasing your system! Also Yello! If thats your kind of music. Very good demo material!
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post #1895 of 2231 Old 07-23-2014, 07:43 PM
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rhale64L7, Does the Chorus use the standard plug? Oh, I see 20A. so looks like if I go this way I will need a new 20A ckt.

Last edited by scpanel; 07-23-2014 at 08:01 PM.
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post #1896 of 2231 Old 07-24-2014, 02:20 AM
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Yes you will scpanel. And thanks for the info vvuuren.
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post #1897 of 2231 Old 07-25-2014, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulgogi View Post

It would be interesting to hear how the Foundation compares as a 2 channel preamp to your Halcro. I know your system is not set up that way, but you could compare by just swapping around a few cables?
It could be easily done by connecting the analog audio output of the Kaleidescape to the Foundation, and then in turn to the Halcro. I have a pair of Audioquest RCA y-splitters but I found when dividing the source 2-ways simultaneously with the splitter results in huge increase in audible background noise. The Kaleidescape and Foundation are rack-mounted on top of each other so it's easy to make the necessary cable swaps. I'll experiment over the weekend and report findings.

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post #1898 of 2231 Old 07-25-2014, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by gulliBELL View Post
It could be easily done by connecting the analog audio output of the Kaleidescape to the Foundation, and then in turn to the Halcro. I have a pair of Audioquest RCA y-splitters but I found when dividing the source 2-ways simultaneously with the splitter results in huge increase in audible background noise. The Kaleidescape and Foundation are rack-mounted on top of each other so it's easy to make the necessary cable swaps. I'll experiment over the weekend and report findings.
Thanks. Knowing the great reputation of the Halcro, I'll be interested to get your impressions of how the two compare.

By the way, were you able to determine whether any upgrades to the Foundation that cannot be done at home (i.e. through firmware updates) could be done at your Australian distributor rather than having to ship all the way to the U.S.? I'd posted about that a week or so ago and was just curious if you looked into it, as it would seem to save you a lot of dough.

Last edited by Bulgogi; 07-25-2014 at 08:45 AM. Reason: Fixed a typographical error
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post #1899 of 2231 Old 07-25-2014, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by gulliBELL View Post
It could be easily done by connecting the analog audio output of the Kaleidescape to the Foundation, and then in turn to the Halcro. I have a pair of Audioquest RCA y-splitters but I found when dividing the source 2-ways simultaneously with the splitter results in huge increase in audible background noise. The Kaleidescape and Foundation are rack-mounted on top of each other so it's easy to make the necessary cable swaps. I'll experiment over the weekend and report findings.
I will be following your little experiment. Can't wait for the outcome.
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post #1900 of 2231 Old 07-25-2014, 09:46 AM
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Me too!
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post #1901 of 2231 Old 07-25-2014, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gulliBELL View Post
It could be easily done by connecting the analog audio output of the Kaleidescape to the Foundation, and then in turn to the Halcro. I have a pair of Audioquest RCA y-splitters but I found when dividing the source 2-ways simultaneously with the splitter results in huge increase in audible background noise. The Kaleidescape and Foundation are rack-mounted on top of each other so it's easy to make the necessary cable swaps. I'll experiment over the weekend and report findings.
Oh, one more thing you may want to address: You will want to ensure that you have firm ware version 1.23 installed, as 1.22 was digitizing the Analog/Preamp Mode signal and 1.23 fixed that.
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post #1902 of 2231 Old 07-25-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Bulgogi View Post
Oh, one more thing you may want to address: You will want to ensure that you have firm ware version 1.23 installed, as 1.22 was digitizing the Analog/Preamp Mode signal and 1.23 fixed that.
Yep, I knew about that...

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post #1903 of 2231 Old 07-25-2014, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Bulgogi View Post
?..By the way, were you able to determine whether any upgrades to the Foundation that cannot be done at home (i.e. through firmware updates) could be done at your Australian distributor rather than having to ship all the way to the U.S.? I'd posted about that a week or so ago and was just curious if you looked into it, as it would seem to save you a lot of dough.
I emailed Krell Support about that twice (over a month ago) but didn't get a reply. I was prepared to ship my unit to them but they cancelled my RMA (their decision), because they figured it was too expensive to send it back. I got no further with them despite trying.

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post #1904 of 2231 Old 07-25-2014, 03:41 PM
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Last update on my Foundation "no sound" problem:
Kept trying to get it playing again along side trying to get a response from Krell. No succes in either atempts.
My Danish dealer finally got a massage from Krell that they shipped some parts to a Swedish supplier. No further details if the parts are for the prepaid 4K upgrade or for my problem. So now i'm sending it to Sweden and crossing my fingers. Hoping that the unit has a fairly long lifeexpectancy - and won't have these problems on and off.
And i agree with people about the information level. Would it hurt Krell to reply - or would it increase customer loyality...
More will follow.
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post #1905 of 2231 Old 07-25-2014, 10:09 PM
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Someone previously asked if the Foundation displays the sample rate of hi-rez files during playback. I don't recall seeing an answer. Could someone comment on this? Thanks.
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post #1906 of 2231 Old 07-25-2014, 11:24 PM
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Someone previously asked if the Foundation displays the sample rate of hi-rez files during playback. I don't recall seeing an answer. Could someone comment on this? Thanks.
It currently does not display the rate.
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post #1907 of 2231 Old 07-26-2014, 02:34 AM
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It currently does not display the rate.
I'm trying to decide if I should upgrade to the Foundation from my current receiver, a Denon 4311. Obviosly the goal is better quality audio. However, certain features are hard to do without once you become acustomed to them.

My only audio source is a PC with JRiver. I play 16-44 as well as hi-rez audio files. Unfortunately, it's theoretically possible to misconfigure your computer so that hi-rez files will not be output correctly. With most Japanese receivers it's easy to tell what the incoming sample rate is for all audio files because it shows up on the display for a few seconds when any hi-rez file starts to play. This applies to stereo as well as multichannel hi-rez. Knowing what sample rate the receiver is receiving helps guarantee that your computer is set up properly.

Is there any way to know if the Foundation is receiving a hi-rez file, even if it doesn't tell you the actual sample rate? I noticed that the display does tell you if you're playing a DSD file. If the display provides no info regarding hi-rez, does the web interface provide any info regarding the type of signal the receiver is playing?
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post #1908 of 2231 Old 07-26-2014, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by nerdkiller View Post
I'm trying to decide if I should upgrade to the Foundation from my current receiver, a Denon 4311. Obviosly the goal is better quality audio. However, certain features are hard to do without once you become acustomed to them.

My only audio source is a PC with JRiver. I play 16-44 as well as hi-rez audio files. Unfortunately, it's theoretically possible to misconfigure your computer so that hi-rez files will not be output correctly. With most Japanese receivers it's easy to tell what the incoming sample rate is for all audio files because it shows up on the display for a few seconds when any hi-rez file starts to play. This applies to stereo as well as multichannel hi-rez. Knowing what sample rate the receiver is receiving helps guarantee that your computer is set up properly.

Is there any way to know if the Foundation is receiving a hi-rez file, even if it doesn't tell you the actual sample rate? I noticed that the display does tell you if you're playing a DSD file. If the display provides no info regarding hi-rez, does the web interface provide any info regarding the type of signal the receiver is playing?
This would be a great feature to have. Maybe we should all call Krell and ask if it could be implemented. They obviously read these forums on occasion. They implemented individual left and right distance settings. Also DSD. So maybe they could implement this also in a firmware update. I know I would surely like it. I play hirez all the time. And I always have the question whether it is playing at the right rate.
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post #1909 of 2231 Old 07-26-2014, 06:14 AM
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I will be following your little experiment. Can't wait for the outcome.
Experiment complete!

First, the A/B configurations.

A. The Foundation has v1.23 software. The Kaleidescape player analog output is connected to the S1 input of the Foundation (assigned as CD input) using Audioquest Coral RCA, and then to the Halcro dm88 power amps also using Coral RCA. The Foundation display shows Analog/Preamp mode (interestingly the display also shows 1080i60 video resolution despite the CD source setup has video = no).

B. The Kaleidescape player analog output is connected to the Halcro dm8 pre-amp using Coral RCA, and then to the Halcro dm88 power amps also using Coral RCA. The Foundation is OFF.

The Foundation and Halcro dm8 are both powered off a PS Audio Power Plant P3 re-generator (which significantly lowers the impedance of the AC and lowers the THD on the incoming AC from about 3% to 0.1%). The Foundation is connected to the P3 by a PS Audio Perfect Wave AC-12 cable, and the Halcro is connected using a PS Audio xStream Prelude AC. The Halcro dm88's are connected to the wall sockets by PS Audio Perfect Wave AC-10 cables.

The demo content is a compilation double CD of World Music genre I bought yesterday (http://sbs.com.au/chill), which is mostly rubbish, but there are some gems of songs on there that are outstanding for testing the mettle of a high fidelity audio system (for those who might not be familiar with Kaleidescape the CD gets imported onto the server as a bit-for-bit copy, and the player connects to the server over the local network and streams what it is told to play by the control system. So playback is not from the physical media, it's from the server).

I was expecting a tough time picking between the Halcro and Foundation because I have been very impressed with the sonic attributes of the Foundation in my multi-channel HT environment (this was the first time I've used the Foundation as a 2ch analog preamp, so a bit of re-wiring was required to hook it up).

The verdict. It was no comparison at all. The Halcro flogs the Foundation every-which-way...I'm reluctant to call it a day and night difference, but it was. For example, Chill CD1, track 13 Inion (Daughter) - Afro Celt Sound System is characterized by an infinitely complex matrix of synthesized sound effects, instruments, and vocal, testing the full audio bandwidth. The Halcro renders this track as an immersive soundfield of infinite depth and width, with pin-point precision of every element, and subtle nuance revealed wherever it was placed in the performance space. Thoroughly convincing, evoking an emotional connexion with the music.

The Foundation doesn't do that. It's presentation I characterize as a single pane of sound, the absence of depth, and width outside the physical position of the speakers, compared to the Halcro was stark. All the bits-and-pieces of the music were there because the Foundation is very revealing, but it just wasn't rendered into the performance space anywhere near as convincing as the Halcro. Please don't mis-understand, Foundation does sound very good as a 2ch pre-amp: play the song, then play the next song, but the Halcro demands me to play the same song over and over again. It has the Wow! factor, turning what was a studio recording into the seeming reality of a live studio performance in my own room.

The Halcro makes my speakers dissolve, they just disappear from the room. The Foundation puts them back in the room. Time now to go back and unravel my cabling back to where it was. The Foundation does HT, the Halcro does music.

In closing just bear in mind the synergy the Halcro pre-amp/power amp combo has, the 2 pieces just have an uncanny capacity to yield an end result greater than the individual parts. Which is an unfair advantage the dm8 has over the Foundation when a dm88 is in the mix.

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Last edited by gulliBELL; 07-26-2014 at 06:30 AM.
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post #1910 of 2231 Old 07-26-2014, 06:53 AM
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Experiment complete!

First, the A/B configurations.

A. The Foundation has v1.23 software. The Kaleidescape player analog output is connected to the S1 input of the Foundation (assigned as CD input) using Audioquest Coral RCA, and then to the Halcro dm88 power amps also using Coral RCA. The Foundation display shows Analog/Preamp mode (interestingly the display also shows 1080i60 video resolution despite the CD source setup has video = no).

B. The Kaleidescape player analog output is connected to the Halcro dm8 pre-amp using Coral RCA, and then to the Halcro dm88 power amps also using Coral RCA. The Foundation is OFF.

The Foundation and Halcro dm8 are both powered off a PS Audio Power Plant P3 re-generator (which significantly lowers the impedance of the AC and lowers the THD on the incoming AC from about 3% to 0.1%). The Foundation is connected to the P3 by a PS Audio Perfect Wave AC-12 cable, and the Halcro is connected using a PS Audio xStream Prelude AC. The Halcro dm88's are connected to the wall sockets by PS Audio Perfect Wave AC-10 cables.

The demo content is a compilation double CD of World Music genre I bought yesterday (http://sbs.com.au/chill), which is mostly rubbish, but there are some gems of songs on there that are outstanding for testing the mettle of a high fidelity audio system (for those who might not be familiar with Kaleidescape the CD gets imported onto the server as a bit-for-bit copy, and the player connects to the server over the local network and streams what it is told to play by the control system. So playback is not from the physical media, it's from the server).

I was expecting a tough time picking between the Halcro and Foundation because I have been very impressed with the sonic attributes of the Foundation in my multi-channel HT environment (this was the first time I've used the Foundation as a 2ch analog preamp, so a bit of re-wiring was required to hook it up).

The verdict. It was no comparison at all. The Halcro flogs the Foundation every-which-way...I'm reluctant to call it a day and night difference, but it was. For example, Chill CD1, track 13 Inion (Daughter) - Afro Celt Sound System is characterized by an infinitely complex matrix of synthesized sound effects, instruments, and vocal, testing the full audio bandwidth. The Halcro renders this track as an immersive soundfield of infinite depth and width, with pin-point precision of every element, and subtle nuance revealed wherever it was placed in the performance space. Thoroughly convincing, evoking an emotional connexion with the music.

The Foundation doesn't do that. It's presentation I characterize as a single pane of sound, the absence of depth, and width outside the physical position of the speakers, compared to the Halcro was stark. All the bits-and-pieces of the music were there because the Foundation is very revealing, but it just wasn't rendered into the performance space anywhere near as convincing as the Halcro. Please don't mis-understand, Foundation does sound very good as a 2ch pre-amp: play the song, then play the next song, but the Halcro demands me to play the same song over and over again. It has the Wow! factor, turning what was a studio recording into the seeming reality of a live studio performance in my own room.

The Halcro makes my speakers dissolve, they just disappear from the room. The Foundation puts them back in the room. Time now to go back and unravel my cabling back to where it was. The Foundation does HT, the Halcro does music.

In closing just bear in mind the synergy the Halcro pre-amp/power amp combo has, the 2 pieces just have an uncanny capacity to yield an end result greater than the individual parts. Which is an unfair advantage the dm8 has over the Foundation when a dm88 is in the mix.
Interesting. Now it would be interesting to a/b the Foundation digitally to the Halcro analog. Before you unhook everything. Does the Kaleidescape have any digital outs?
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post #1911 of 2231 Old 07-26-2014, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
Interesting. Now it would be interesting to a/b the Foundation digitally to the Halcro analog. Before you unhook everything. Does the Kaleidescape have any digital outs?
I mentioned in an earlier post how it's hard to pick between the Foundation 7.1 and the Halcro dm8 in my normal music configuration. That is, the Foundation doing all the heavy lifting (DAC + Pre-amp), compared with sharing the load between Kaleidescape (internal DAC) and Halcro (pre-amp). This latest experiment has removed the DAC from the equation, it's a straight shoot-out of pre-amp performance and the Halcro clearly wins. What would be reasonable to conclude is the DAC in the Foundation is better than the Kaleidescape internal DAC (because the Foundation doing all the heavy lifting is virtually indistinguishable from the Kaleidescape/Halcro sharing the load).

I do not have a lot of experience with DAC's. In my installation I have only tried NAD-M51, Matrix xSabre, and PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC Mk2, and the Kaleidescape internal DAC is better than all of them. Now that I know by reasonable assumption that the Foundation DAC is better than Kaleidescape internal DAC, I can't wait to put the new PS Audio DirectStream DAC in my Halcro 2ch rig (i.e. Kaleidescape digital out > DS > Halcro).

EDIT: I should add that the dm8 is almost 3 times the price of the Foundation 7.1 and it only does analog pre-amp.

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post #1912 of 2231 Old 07-26-2014, 08:42 AM
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Ok thanks. I am going to be running everything into the Foundation digitally. I compared analog out from oppo and hdmi out from Oppo this was the 105 also. The depth of soundstage was much better when using hdmi. Which means the dac implementation on the Foundation as a whole must be better. I know the power supply of the Foundation is much better overall than the oppo 105 power supply. There is a mess of power supply capacitance in the Foundation.

I know because I took them both apart to look inside.
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post #1913 of 2231 Old 07-26-2014, 02:23 PM
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I'm amazed that the Halcro is that much better than the Foundation at 2ch. To me the Foundation sounds very good. And with the Oppo 105 running XLR the sound is the best i've heard playing SACD. Better than HDMI. I guess i'm in the marked for a 2ch preamp...
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post #1914 of 2231 Old 07-26-2014, 03:50 PM
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I was surprised as well. I was expecting it to be a long night trying a wide variety of different content to try and differentiate only subtle nuances of difference. Much like when comparing different interconnects or speaker cables or power cables because they can be difficult to reliably tell apart (which is why I don't use insanely expensive cables in my setup), and in any event I really don't have much motivation for these sort of tests.

After I wrote that initial piece I went back to the Foundation in pre-amp mode and listened for another hour, because sometimes initial impressions can be off the mark. But the more I listened the more I had to accept the Foundation as a 2ch pre-amp flies at a noticeably lower altitude in the performance airspace than the Halcro. Which is a finding consistent with what Paul McGowan said a few months back in the PS Audio forums, even talking down the sonic attributes of his own products when compared to a quality 2ch dedicated pre-amp.

I don't want to sound as if I'm rubbishing the Foundation 7.1, because I'm not. As a one-stop-shop piece it is outstanding value for the performance, and I'm very happy with mine. But it is clearly evident there is better stuff out there if your focus is 2ch, and you're prepared to drop $20k+ to get there. All the more reason to congratulate Krell for what they've delivered in the Foundation.

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post #1915 of 2231 Old 07-26-2014, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
...There is a mess of power supply capacitance in the Foundation.

I know because I took them both apart to look inside.
If you open up a Halcro pre-amp you won't find all the clues, they dipped the boards in opaque epoxy so enquisitive eyes (i.e. competitors) can't unravel the electronic topology. Probably for good reason.

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post #1916 of 2231 Old 07-26-2014, 04:24 PM
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Probably so.
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post #1917 of 2231 Old 07-26-2014, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsetliff View Post
It currently does not display the rate.
It's totally whacky that the Foundation display shows a video resolution when no video source is assigned to the active input, but it doesn't show the audio resolution of the selected audio source.

There are a few things on my feature request list, and I've put them to Krell. But they don't get back to me about these, hopefully they're all taken on-board.

"My interest in home theater is not only that it annoys the wife, but if it was, then that would be enough"
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post #1918 of 2231 Old 07-26-2014, 05:13 PM
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I will do this also. They obviously still have a few things to iron out. They need to maybe steel some of oppo's software designers. Lol
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post #1919 of 2231 Old 07-26-2014, 05:25 PM
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My list is short:
1. Support pass-through of last active input when Foundation is put into Stby.
2. Support pulse triggers in trigger setup menu.
3. Support display active input audio resolution.
4. Better owners reference.
5. Support simple text link local network address for web browser UI (e.g. http://my-foundation.local for Mac environment)
6. Support local dealer DSD upgrade for International customers.

Edit:
7. Support graphical/text data file output showing all configuration parameters, particularly graphical display of EQ in-room response, before and after ARES EQ (same as Audyssey Pro).

"My interest in home theater is not only that it annoys the wife, but if it was, then that would be enough"

Last edited by gulliBELL; 07-26-2014 at 05:52 PM.
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post #1920 of 2231 Old 07-26-2014, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gulliBELL View Post
My list is short:
1. Support pass-through of last active input when Foundation is put into Stby.
2. Support pulse triggers in trigger setup menu.
3. Support display active input audio resolution.
4. Better owners reference.
5. Support simple text link local network address for web browser UI (e.g. http://my-foundation.local for Mac environment)
6. Support local dealer DSD upgrade for International customers.
Also need to add sample rate of incoming signal. This would be a great feature.
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