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post #1 of 23 Old 08-07-2013, 08:34 PM - Thread Starter
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If I run my receiver with 90 watts per channel at 8 ohms at the half way point on the volume slider, is the max output possible 45 watts, depending on the material? If this is not the case can someone give me some insight?
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post #2 of 23 Old 08-07-2013, 09:16 PM
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The problem is in defining the 'half-way point' on the volume knob. Sound is measured in db's and db's are a logarithmic function and not linear.

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post #3 of 23 Old 08-07-2013, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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So, it is impossible to know exactly, since the amplification increases much more than the sound level? Is cranked up all the way the full 90 watts?
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post #4 of 23 Old 08-08-2013, 02:40 AM
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Cranked to full will almost guarantee clipping depending on the speakers you use! 90 watts really depends on the loudness of your source and the ease of driving your speakers so it is 100% impossible to define where on the knob. But maxed out will clip ...

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post #5 of 23 Old 08-08-2013, 03:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Podski View Post

If I run my receiver with 90 watts per channel at 8 ohms at the half way point on the volume slider, is the max output possible 45 watts, depending on the material?

Lets put it this way. depending on the output voltage of your signal source, you can get a wide range of power levels out of that receiver, and drive it well into clipping over a wide range of volume control settings. Without calibration volume control settings mean nothing.

If you buy one of the better AVRs with built in automated system optimization facilities such as Audyssey, MCACC. or YPAO and run the optimization facility with the little microphone at your listening position the internal adjustments of the AVR are set up so that the position and markings of the volume control actually mean something, and that the AVR can't be forced into clipping from digital sources like a Blu Ray player, or the digital output of a cable box.
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post #6 of 23 Old 08-08-2013, 03:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by joker97 View Post

Cranked to full will almost guarantee clipping depending on the speakers you use! 90 watts really depends on the loudness of your source and the ease of driving your speakers so it is 100% impossible to define where on the knob. But maxed out will clip ...

If you calibrate the internal gain settings of an AVR properly, you can guarantee that it won't clip with any digital source.
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post #7 of 23 Old 08-08-2013, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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So audyssey will calibrate so clipping is impossible with a digital source?
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post #8 of 23 Old 08-08-2013, 11:31 AM
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The digital bit stream will not exceed full-scale of the digital signal path. Nothing says your analog amplifier chain and speakers won't clip.

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post #9 of 23 Old 08-08-2013, 02:30 PM
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So it can still clip??

What about audyssey and flac via hdmi? I don't understand ... What ifi calibrate the audyssey and not use the eq can I do that ( find it makes everything bright)

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post #10 of 23 Old 08-08-2013, 02:57 PM
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If you turn any amp up far enough it will clip when the incoming signal gets strong enough. The amplification section doesn't know or care if the incoming signal was ever digital, or if it comes from a turntable and phono preamp, or a cassette player, or the output of an electric guitar (all of which may yield different maximum output voltage).

Thinking about the digital side of the equation when assessing amp clipping really doesn't help at all. The amp never sees the digital signal. It sees the output of the digital to audio converter section. The DAC doesn't care if the PCM it is decoding was always PCM or was an MP3 or FLAC that was decoded to PCM in order for the DAC to do its thing. Digital cannot get "louder" than 0dB full scale, because it runs out of ones and zeroes. That's a problem when you record digitally - - feed too strong an analog signal into the analog to digital converter and it will digitally clip the incoming signal. Supposedly much uglier than amp clipping. But your receiver's digital processing was designed and built with this fact in mind and won't cause digital clipping. Even if it did digitally clip, that would be entirely irrelevant to the question of amp clipping . . .

ou don't have to use the EQ if you don't like it. The sun will not go nova because of it . . . nor does it increase your chances of being struck by lightning . . .
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post #11 of 23 Old 08-08-2013, 03:45 PM
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So how does audyssey modify the incoming digital signal if I didn't use the eq? Will it be useful still? Thanks

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post #12 of 23 Old 08-08-2013, 05:58 PM
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Will what be useful?

The incoming digital signal cannot exceed full-scale by definition. Only so many bits.

If you do not use Audyssey I would expect the digital signal to pass through and be applied to the DACs. There may be digital attenuation (volume control, but only down) before then depending on the gain structure of the component.

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post #13 of 23 Old 08-08-2013, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Will what be useful?

Arnyk said if we set up audyssey my digital sources will never clip. Is that true

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post #14 of 23 Old 08-09-2013, 06:33 AM
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See donh's answer.
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post #15 of 23 Old 08-09-2013, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

If you turn any amp up far enough it will clip when the incoming signal gets strong enough. The amplification section doesn't know or care if the incoming signal was ever digital, or if it comes from a turntable and phono preamp, or a cassette player, or the output of an electric guitar (all of which may yield different maximum output voltage).

Thinking about the digital side of the equation when assessing amp clipping really doesn't help at all. The amp never sees the digital signal. It sees the output of the digital to audio converter section. The DAC doesn't care if the PCM it is decoding was always PCM or was an MP3 or FLAC that was decoded to PCM in order for the DAC to do its thing. Digital cannot get "louder" than 0dB full scale, because it runs out of ones and zeroes. That's a problem when you record digitally - -myzVfeed too strong an analog signal into the analog to digital converter and it will digitally clip the incoming signal. Supposedly much uglier than amp clipping. But your receiver's digital processing was designed and built with this fact in mind and won't cause digital clipping. Even if it did digitally clip, that would be entirely irrelevant to the question of amp clipping . . .

ou don't have to use the EQ if you don't like it. The sun will not go nova because of it . . . nor does it increase your chances of being struck by lightning . . .
I think you are very professional.
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post #16 of 23 Old 08-10-2013, 04:48 AM
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Back to the question maybe its best just to keep in mind that you should never bring a amp near its clipping point. So in practice that means for most of us we never bring the volume button to more than 70%. If you need more sound level in that room consider speakers that are more sensitive or change the amp. The aim is not to use all the watts available but to reach the sound level you want with headroom to spare for 1% of the time you need a little more.

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post #17 of 23 Old 08-10-2013, 08:01 AM
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The "real" wattage rating can be found on the ID plate on the back of your receiver. It will either be an actual wattage or Volt/Amp rating. Volts x Amps = Watts. Subtract 20 to 30 watts for system overhead and what is left is what you would use. Your manual might also have the Dynamic Wattage specs, which is usually stated with one or two channels driven and is useful when using just two channels.

If you want to get a rough idea of how many watts your system is drawing during a particular gain setting, then you will need an SPL meter, the distance from speakers, the sensitivity of your speakers, and test tones. There are formulas published on WikiPedia that you can use to figure out the wattage draw for one or multiple speakers driven.

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post #18 of 23 Old 08-11-2013, 02:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Podski View Post

So audyssey will calibrate so clipping is impossible with a digital source?

Suffice it to say that once having run Audyssey, movie "reference" volume level will be set to either "0db" or "80" depending on your particular model and volume scale being used. Although the master volume level will go higher (eg. from 0db to +18db or from 80 to 100), a good rule of thumb to avoid clipping is to never raise the volume level above that "reference" level of 0db/80.

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post #19 of 23 Old 08-11-2013, 05:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Will what be useful?

The incoming digital signal cannot exceed full-scale by definition. Only so many bits.

If you do not use Audyssey I would expect the digital signal to pass through and be applied to the DACs. There may be digital attenuation (volume control, but only down) before then depending on the gain structure of the component.

Agreed.

To further expand on the discussion AVRs always have internal volume controls that you can set at will. The ones for active speakers work together to establish how loud your system will be at for maximum clockwise rotation of the volume control. An intelligent way to set them up is to match up digital full scale (FS) with analog full scale which is the clipping point of the AVR's internal amplifier.

The DSP can also control gain, but it appears that levels through the DSP is set up based on digital FS.

One of the interesting things about contemporary AVRs is that as a rule overall level setting is not done in the digital domain, but done in a digitally-controlled analog volume control that follows the DACs and precedes the power amplifier. The use of this approach probably has to do with price performance of DACs which is constantly improving. The other benefit(?) of this approach is that it allows the AVR to support a reduced-functionality direct or bypass mode where the signal from selected inputs stay in the analog domain.
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post #20 of 23 Old 08-11-2013, 05:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Suffice it to say that once having run Audyssey, movie "reference" volume level will be set to either "0db" or "80" depending on your particular model and volume scale being used. Although the master volume level will go higher (eg. from 0db to +18db or from 80 to 100), a good rule of thumb to avoid clipping is to never raise the volume level above that "reference" level of 0db/80.

It turns out that my Denon 1913 works on a 0 to max dB scale that for my system ends at 83 dB. AFAIK the highest number would decrease if my speakers were less efficient. This is the number that shows up on the front panel display and the video overlay.
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post #21 of 23 Old 08-11-2013, 05:13 AM
 
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So how does audyssey modify the incoming digital signal if I didn't use the eq? Will it be useful still? Thanks

For most if not all AVRs digital signals always pass though the DSP, the DACs and a digitally-controlled analog volume control.

Audyssey (MCACC, or YPAO or other system optimization software) runs as a task on the DSP, along with Dolby and other AVR-specific firmware.

If you want to figure out what the DSP does, check out your user manual and see what functions disappear in bypass or analog direct mode. They will usually include audio decoding, system optimization, and bass management.

I see that someone has questioned my discussion of digital functions in a discussion of amplifier power. I justify this because in most modern mainstream AVRs, the end user has no access to the direct power amp inputs, or to a lesser extent the outputs of the signal processing in the AVR. From an end user viewpoint the power amp could process analog or digital signals and AVR usage would remain the same. Right now we have no true digital power amps, but down the road we probably will and the basic functions of AVRs could easily remain the same.
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post #22 of 23 Old 08-11-2013, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk@pcavtech View Post

It turns out that my Denon 1913 works on a 0 to max dB scale that for my system ends at 83 dB. AFAIK the highest number would decrease if my speakers were less efficient. This is the number that shows up on the front panel display and the video overlay.

You can set that in the settings, When using the -80 to +18dB range on denon's and you did audyssey the reference will be at 0dB point. As outlined going over that point is probably never needed and/or smart so you can consider 'locking' it in the menu so you can't go higher than say -10dB or 0dB its a good way to protect yourself against 'oops' moments. Sadly this doesn't mean sound level will always be the same since music doesn't have the strict range guidelines as movies.

I for example use my denon poa bridged to my 2 90dB fronts (B&W 802 diamonds) but have the volume limited at 0dB inside the denon avp since i never expect to pass the 0dB point unless war breaks out and i want to use it as a weapon.

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post #23 of 23 Old 08-11-2013, 08:26 AM
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^^
Excellent point Daniel. All owners would be wise to set the "Volume Limit" setting to either 70/-10db or 80/0db.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk@pcavtech View Post

It turns out that my Denon 1913 works on a 0 to max dB scale that for my system ends at 83 dB. AFAIK the highest number would decrease if my speakers were less efficient. This is the number that shows up on the front panel display and the video overlay.

Your 1913 has the same two volume scales as do all Denon AVRs which is either ...

Absolute: 0-100 (note no use of db), where movie reference is 80 used by Dyn EQ
Relative: -89db to +18db, where movie reference is 0db used by Dyn EQ

If you are unable to raise the master volume above 83 then you likely have the Source Level set on that particular source to a high (+) value as well as possibly using Dynamic Volume.

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