Need some advice, receiver or separates. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 08-11-2013, 02:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey everyone, been out of the new receiver separates games for a while. I presently own a Piomeer SC-07 that has been very good to me. I'm giving it to my son for a birthday present and have always had that buy an AMP thing in the back of my head. $3000 is my limit. Do I buy a new sc-79 or would anyone care to recommend an amp an a receiver that would be in the same price range? I need help for the latest out there. I'm really clueless and don't want to miss a good opportunity right now to,go with receiver/amp combo for my home theater. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I mostly use the receiver for a switching center. I do listen to music and have paradigm studio speakers but mostly home theater or just watching tv. The 07 works very good for those tasks and sounds great in my system.
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post #2 of 18 Old 08-11-2013, 07:50 AM
 
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Hi Mike

With that healthy budget, my primary recommendation is to target an AVR that features Audyssey MultEQ XT32. XT32 is widely regarded to be the best auto calibration and "room equalisation" routine currently available on consumer level AVR's and processors.

The current flagship AVR's from Denon and Onkyo are within your budget and pack XT32. Both have nine amplified channels like the Pioneer SC-79. Only the Onkyo is THX Ultra2 Plus certified like the SC-79. The flagships:


However, the superior buy from Onkyo IMO is the TX-NR3010 as it gives up nothing in terms of features that make a real world difference and is $700 cheaper.


That's my shortlist and you really couldn't go wrong with either the Denon 4520 or the Onkyo 3010. It would be a matter of listing out the features you want in an AVR and seeing which is the best fit for you.

Good luck!
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post #3 of 18 Old 08-11-2013, 07:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks I have been beating the bushes and I have it down to the Onkyo 3010, denon 4520 and the pioneer 77. I feel like I'm giving up on separates again.

But I'm not finding snap I like within the price range.. What about Marantz?
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post #4 of 18 Old 08-11-2013, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeRP View Post

Thanks I have been beating the bushes and I have it down to the Onkyo 3010, denon 4520 and the pioneer 77. I feel like I'm giving up on separates again.

But I'm not finding snap I like within the price range.. What about Marantz?
Those Studios dip down to 3 ohms and the 77 can handle that with ease something to consider.
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post #5 of 18 Old 08-12-2013, 05:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeRP View Post

But I'm not finding snap I like within the price range..
Sorry Mike, I don't understand what you mean by that.

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Originally Posted by MikeRP View Post

What about Marantz?
IMO, Marantz tend to trade on their carefully cultivated reputation for sound quality and their sleek looks. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but in reality you won't reliably pick any sonic difference between a Marantz and any other AVR's with the same Audyssey implementation and DSP modes. You'll just pay a lot more. For example, the top of the line Marantz AVR and its Denon sibling - both are 7.2 channel; 125 watts/channel with XT32.


If you check out the pics of the rear of these AVR's in the above links, you'll see they're almost identical, with the Marantz having a few more legacy connections. I reckon you'd have to really love the looks of a Marantz to pay a 50% premium for essentially the same machine as the Denon.

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Those Studios dip down to 3 ohms and the 77 can handle that with ease something to consider.
10-4. smile.gif All THX Ultra certified AVR's are certified to play any program material to reference level when hooked up to speakers with 89dB/1W/1m sensitivity and minimum impedance of 3.2Ω (4Ω nominal).
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post #6 of 18 Old 08-12-2013, 05:27 AM
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For 3 grand you should be able to buy a great receiver and an amp.

I suggest getting the Denon 4520 since Onkyo's seem to have a lot of reliability issues. At least that's what I concur from what I read on this forum and my own personnel experience.

With an external amp, you can do up to an 11 channel set up with front wides and heights and the amp can take some of the load off the receiver. I have a Denon 4311 which is almost identical to the 4520 (the 4520 is basically the newer version of the 4311) and I run a 5 channel amp for the fronts and main surrounds for a total of 11 channels. You can get a good 3 or 5 channel amp from outlaw or Emotiva for roughly $700 on sale. The 4520 can be had for under $2,000.
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post #7 of 18 Old 08-12-2013, 09:20 AM
 
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I don't see a reason to go to the 4520 from the X4000 unless you specifically need one of the upgraded features (which there really aren't many).
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post #8 of 18 Old 08-12-2013, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeRP View Post

Thanks I have been beating the bushes and I have it down to the Onkyo 3010, denon 4520 and the pioneer 77. I feel like I'm giving up on separates again.

But I'm not finding snap I like within the price range.. What about Marantz?
Those Studios dip down to 3 ohms and the 77 can handle that with ease something to consider.

I've run speakers that dip down into the 3 ohm range with mid-priced AVRs such as the Yamaha RXV-371 and the Denon 1913. No problem.



Holding out for Audessey XT32 seems like a worthy goal to me, but it can be satisfied by a Onkyo NR 818 from Acessories4Less.com for under $700. It also has pre-outs so can hedge your bets on AVRs and add gigawatt power amps later on.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR818/Onkyo-TX-NR818-7.2-Ch-THX-Certified-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html
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post #9 of 18 Old 08-12-2013, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Holding out for Audessey XT32 seems like a worthy goal to me

I would be interested in your thoughts on how much of an improvement XT32 is over the version you have now (MultEQ, I believe).

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post #10 of 18 Old 08-12-2013, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I've run speakers that dip down into the 3 ohm range with mid-priced AVRs such as the Yamaha RXV-371 and the Denon 1913.

Holding out for Audessey XT32 seems like a worthy goal to me, but it can be satisfied by a Onkyo NR 818 from Acessories4Less.com for under $700. It also has pre-outs so can hedge your bets on AVRs and add gigawatt power amps later on.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR818/Onkyo-TX-NR818-7.2-Ch-THX-Certified-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html

I'm interested in using the 818 as a pre pro. It has the xt32 but it does not have the sub eq like the denon x4000 correct? I have 4 pb13 ultras I want corrected (reminds me of the Shining lol) as I have been using a rotel 1570 with no room correction. That is a further question: would you guys move from a unit like the 1570 to say an 818 to gain the room correction? And if so, do you know of an online retailer in Canada that one could order from? Thanks fellas.
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post #11 of 18 Old 08-12-2013, 08:04 PM
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I have the same dilemma as the OP and was wondering how much a set of separates would have to cost for the features/power/quality to be comparable to that of Denon 4520 or Onkyo TX-NR3010?

Also, would using a Denon X4000 as a pre/pro with an external amp offer more bang for the buck than a standalone 4520? If so, would it possible to use a couple of monoblocks or a two channel amp to drive the front speakers while the X4000 continues to power the rest of the speakers? Is this easily doable using the "amp assign" settings?
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post #12 of 18 Old 08-13-2013, 12:52 AM
 
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I don't see a reason to go to the 4520 from the X4000 unless you specifically need one of the upgraded features (which there really aren't many).
Yes actually, after doing looking at a comparison I agree with you (FWIW). The X4000 ticks a lot of the same boxes:

http://usa.denon.com/us/Product/Pages/ProductComparision.aspx?CatId=avreceivers(denonna)&pids=avr4520ci(denonna)|avrx4000(denonna)

Those that really want the big dog will stump for the 4520CI regardless I suppose. Others will really "need" the simultaneous 11.2 channel processing &/or free amp assign.

The headline extra power will attract some, but 125W --> 150W is less than 1dB of power on a continuous basis. Even the souped up "Maximum Power Per Channel" (whatever that is?) delta only yields +0.4dB.
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post #13 of 18 Old 08-13-2013, 02:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Holding out for Audessey XT32 seems like a worthy goal to me

I would be interested in your thoughts on how much of an improvement XT32 is over the version you have now (MultEQ, I believe).

I have no idea. My current main AVR only has Multieq. If anybody wants to add enough money to my paypal account so I can run right out and buy an AVR with XT32 my Paypal account is arnyk@wowway.com. ;-) I'm not holding my breath!

Based on the measurements I've seen, XT32 may do something more than Multieq that is probably audible. I know how to do a DBT of this, but again, where's the XT32 AVR?
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post #14 of 18 Old 08-13-2013, 05:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, folks I'm really hand wringing over my decision. Last night I bought a Pioneer Elite SC-77. I know I will like it but for $300 more I can have the Denon 4520CI. And I've always wanted to try one.

But Pioneer is like an old friend. I know the manuals, how to tweak the MCACC, and I'm excited about getting it. I've had the Pioneer Elite 41TX, 45TX, SC-05 and SC-07 in my systems as well as the 1979 Flagship 80 lb beast receiver. My first receiver was a Marantz, I've tried Onkyo, Harmon Kardon and thats it. But I took both of those back.

However, I did have to have the main board replaced on the SC-07 and it is a pain to find a Pioneer authorized repair center even though it was under warranty. But it was repaired correctly and has been working fine for the last 3 years since the repair.

Anyway, any thoughts?
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post #15 of 18 Old 08-13-2013, 05:55 AM
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I'm a Pioneer fan so I think you did fine. Pioneer's amps are stronger than most. What you need to do is check the list features to see if the Denon has something you want that the Pioneer doesn't and is worth $300 to you. Otherwise I would just enjoy what's coming.
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post #16 of 18 Old 08-13-2013, 07:34 AM
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As soon as my budget will allow it the Integra is gone and the SC-77 will be in its place.
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post #17 of 18 Old 08-13-2013, 07:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Holding out for Audessey XT32 seems like a worthy goal to me

I would be interested in your thoughts on how much of an improvement XT32 is over the version you have now (MultEQ, I believe).

I have no idea. My current main AVR only has Multieq. If anybody wants to add enough money to my paypal account so I can run right out and buy an AVR with XT32 my Paypal account is arnyk@wowway.com. ;-) I'm not holding my breath!

Based on the measurements I've seen, XT32 may do something more than Multieq that is probably audible. I know how to do a DBT of this, but again, where's the XT32 AVR?

C'mon Arny, you don't really need our benevolence do you?! biggrin.gif



Cruchfield have open box Denon X4000's for $1170. Acc4less are currently sold out of $900 factory refurbished X4000's, but you never know your luck.

The X4000 has the full monty version of XT32 with SubEQ HT. As d_m1010 mentioned, the Onkyo 818 has a half baked implementation of XT32 without SubEQ HT - it doesn't ping dual subs simultaneously to calculate combined filters. (http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750#user_f2)
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post #18 of 18 Old 08-13-2013, 08:37 PM
 
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I've run speakers that dip down into the 3 ohm range with mid-priced AVRs such as the Yamaha RXV-371 and the Denon 1913. No problem.


That's quite interesting Arny. Those Infinity P360's are pretty well regarded budget floorstanders aren't they? If so, I'd speculate that the majority of them in the wild would be hooked up to low to mid tier AVR's.

In addition to the dip below 4Ω from >100 - 250Hz, would the 5Ω/45 degree phase angle combination at 90Hz be regarded as "tricky" or challenging for an amplifier? I don't know, but if so doesn't it make a mockery of the idea that you need big amp power (not AVR's) to "handle" speakers like this, even though the rated power is not needed to produce the desired SPL's?

Edit: Just found the Stereophile article:

Quote:
Sidebar 3: Measurements
The Infinity Primus 360... However, with an impedance magnitude that drops below 4 ohms in the lower midrange and high treble and an electrical phase angle that is extreme in the upper bass (fig.1), the speaker needs to be partnered with an amplifier or receiver that can drive low impedances with aplomb. (The combination of 5.2 ohms and –45º phase angle at 93Hz will tax amplifiers rated at 8 ohms.)

BS?
.
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