Higher end receiver vs. entry level separates. - Page 5 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #121 of 140 Old 09-02-2013, 04:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
oztech's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 7,660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike47 View Post

Can Audyssey versions be upgraded through firmware downloads, or is it built into the machine? Just say for instance that Cambridge A decided to licence a higher version of Audyssey. Would that only show up in their new machines only, or could they offer upgrades for older models? Just wondering.
It is both firmware and hardware .
oztech is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #122 of 140 Old 09-02-2013, 04:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Zen Traveler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Liked: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike47 View Post

Can Audyssey versions be upgraded through firmware downloads, or is it built into the machine? Just say for instance that Cambridge A decided to licence a higher version of Audyssey. Would that only show up in their new machines only, or could they offer upgrades for older models? Just wondering.

I don't think a higher version of Audyssey would be available as an upgrade and would need to be installed/licensed in the newer AVRs.
Zen Traveler is offline  
post #123 of 140 Old 09-02-2013, 05:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MUDCAT45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 123 Post(s)
Liked: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Sure - what is it you are interested in seeing?  I've posted dozens of mine though on the Audyssey thread and the HDMI/USB thread.  To start the ball rolling, and as we were discussing what Audyssey does, here is one showing the effect of Audyssey on and off. This was before my room was treated at all, so it shows what Audyssey can do in a typical living room environment.



I do not have a vast knowledge of reading graphs. However, it appears that all Audyssey did was raise the levels across the spectrum. I see almost no smoothing. You have the same peaks and valleys just at an elevated volume.
I personally do not understand your claim of having good sound if accuracy is your goal.
MUDCAT45 is online now  
post #124 of 140 Old 09-02-2013, 05:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MUDCAT45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 123 Post(s)
Liked: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I don't believe in brands. I judge components on their individual merits. My current AVR is a fairly new Denon 1913, the previous one was a Yamaha 371. My system is currently in flux, progressing as some recent pretty severe health problems have allowed. I have some fairly heavy pieces on hand that I have not yet been able to implement. Besides the Denon my speakers are 3 Infinity PC 351s and a patched-up Paradigm subwoofer and some other components related to Sennheiser Digital wireless headphones, a Panasonic BD player and a Scientific Atlanta HD cable box. Video is a 60" Mitsubishi DLP TV.

It would likely be a waste to upgrade too much. After all those drinks they all look and sound the same I suppose.
MUDCAT45 is online now  
post #125 of 140 Old 09-03-2013, 12:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
braveheart123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lone Wolf McQuade from Islamabad Pakistan
Posts: 1,816
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 115
Here are the FRs with and without Audyssey. No smoothing was applied. Note that I'm not discussing superiority of AVRs here in terms of FR. Just discussing what Audyssey does.

Denon 3313 with Audyssey MultiEQ XT was used (DIY Sub Alpine SWR-1223D tuned to 21Hz with iNuke 6000 DSP amp). The sub response includes mains also crossed at 80Hz.







Look at the 16dB boost at 62Hz and a notch filter boost of 22dB at 79Hz and a wide band boost down low from 26Hz to 13Hz. All these boosts caused ringing especially below 30Hz. One can spot the increased ringing where the boosts were applied. The Audyssey corrected graph looks better; but it did not sound as good at all.

I know Audyssey movie curve shoots for a house curve; but that doesn't necessarily mean boosting the low end. One can achieve the same house curve by cutting the upper end. With those horrible boosts, even iNuke 6000 DSP would run out of steam way below movie reference volume. I used to clip iNuke at -20 on MV when I was using denon 3313 with sub trim level at around -8 and the amp perfectly gain matched with avr.

I had similar results with Onkyo 809 also. It had same version of audyssey. Not discussing Azur here coz 2EQ doesn't eq sub.

History is written by those who have hanged heroes ...

The best EQ is no EQ ...

Alpine SWR-1223D Slot Ported HT Sub

Dual Dayton RSS390HO-4 Reference 15 Build For HT

Main System: Klipsch RF-82 II, Klipsch RC-62 II, RS-52 II, Onkyo 5010, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S300
braveheart123 is offline  
post #126 of 140 Old 09-03-2013, 02:12 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,299
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 682 Post(s)
Liked: 1144
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike47 View Post

Can Audyssey versions be upgraded through firmware downloads, or is it built into the machine? Just say for instance that Cambridge A decided to licence a higher version of Audyssey. Would that only show up in their new machines only, or could they offer upgrades for older models? Just wondering.
It is both firmware and hardware .

I know of several off-the-shelf DSP chips for which various Audyssey versions have been preloaded, and are available to licensed buyers. Audyssey needs to be tailored to the hardware platform, but it is software, or more properly stated, firmware. There appears to be no technical reason why a hardware platform couldn't run the full range of products, and be field upgradable.
arnyk is online now  
post #127 of 140 Old 09-03-2013, 04:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
primetimeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 3,709
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Here are the FRs with and without Audyssey. No smoothing was applied. Note that I'm not discussing superiority of AVRs here in terms of FR. Just discussing what Audyssey does.

Denon 3313 with Audyssey MultiEQ XT was used (DIY Sub Alpine SWR-1223D tuned to 21Hz with iNuke 6000 DSP amp). The sub response includes mains also crossed at 80Hz.







Look at the 16dB boost at 62Hz and a notch filter boost of 22dB at 79Hz and a wide band boost down low from 26Hz to 13Hz. All these boosts caused ringing especially below 30Hz. One can spot the increased ringing where the boosts were applied. The Audyssey corrected graph looks better; but it did not sound as good at all.

I know Audyssey movie curve shoots for a house curve; but that doesn't necessarily mean boosting the low end. One can achieve the same house curve by cutting the upper end. With those horrible boosts, even iNuke 6000 DSP would run out of steam way below movie reference volume. I used to clip iNuke at -20 on MV when I was using denon 3313 with sub trim level at around -8 and the amp perfectly gain matched with avr.

I had similar results with Onkyo 809 also. It had same version of audyssey. Not discussing Azur here coz 2EQ doesn't eq sub.

Audyssey doesn't shoot for a house curve on the low end, it shoots for flat.  Did you have DynEQ engaged by chance?  You sub appears to be much hotter (10db+?) at least under 60hz.  Do you have full range plots? 

 

I will see I haven't see all the added ringing before because of Audyssey.  Interesting for sure, but notice it reduces ringing in some areas too such as mid to upper 80hz

primetimeguy is online now  
post #128 of 140 Old 09-03-2013, 05:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
braveheart123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lone Wolf McQuade from Islamabad Pakistan
Posts: 1,816
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 115
Quote:
I will see I haven't see all the added ringing before because of Audyssey. Interesting for sure, but notice it reduces ringing in some areas too such as mid to upper 80hz

That's coz it's applying cuts 80Hz and above. On Denon when we set "movie" as audyssey curve, it's actually a house curve. Selecting "music" is flat. DynamicEQ was off. Below 60Hz it's all boosts.

I got rid of that null at 79hz using a bass trap.

History is written by those who have hanged heroes ...

The best EQ is no EQ ...

Alpine SWR-1223D Slot Ported HT Sub

Dual Dayton RSS390HO-4 Reference 15 Build For HT

Main System: Klipsch RF-82 II, Klipsch RC-62 II, RS-52 II, Onkyo 5010, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S300
braveheart123 is offline  
post #129 of 140 Old 09-03-2013, 05:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
primetimeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 3,709
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post


That's coz it's applying cuts 80Hz and above. On Denon when we set "movie" as audyssey curve, it's actually a house curve. Selecting "music" is flat. DynamicEQ was off. Below 60Hz it's all boosts.

I got rid of that null at 79hz using a bass trap.

The bass should be flat on both Audyssey curves.  The Flat/Music curve just removes the high end roll-off.  I find it crazy it boosted your nulls 20db.  Someone else can chime in but I didn't think it should do that nor would it have the capability to do so.

primetimeguy is online now  
post #130 of 140 Old 09-03-2013, 05:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
braveheart123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lone Wolf McQuade from Islamabad Pakistan
Posts: 1,816
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 115
I checked it on mutple avrs with same audyssey version, at least two (onkyo 809 and denon 3313). Audyssey does apply boost down low in 'movie' curve. At least that's what REW confirmed.

History is written by those who have hanged heroes ...

The best EQ is no EQ ...

Alpine SWR-1223D Slot Ported HT Sub

Dual Dayton RSS390HO-4 Reference 15 Build For HT

Main System: Klipsch RF-82 II, Klipsch RC-62 II, RS-52 II, Onkyo 5010, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S300
braveheart123 is offline  
post #131 of 140 Old 09-03-2013, 05:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
primetimeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 3,709
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 133

Here is my Movie curve graph.  Originally taken with Omnimic and includes 1/24 octave smoothing but plotted with REW using same scale as yours.

 

 

But to be honest I cannot tell you if this is using the default sub level set during Audyssey setup or my tweak after which also includes sub phase/distance adjustment.

primetimeguy is online now  
post #132 of 140 Old 09-03-2013, 10:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
braveheart123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lone Wolf McQuade from Islamabad Pakistan
Posts: 1,816
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 115
That's a nice FR even with smoothing off. I can visualize. How far from reference do you clip the amp on your sub? If you have BFD, you can tell from the lights. And which sub do you currently run?

History is written by those who have hanged heroes ...

The best EQ is no EQ ...

Alpine SWR-1223D Slot Ported HT Sub

Dual Dayton RSS390HO-4 Reference 15 Build For HT

Main System: Klipsch RF-82 II, Klipsch RC-62 II, RS-52 II, Onkyo 5010, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S300
braveheart123 is offline  
post #133 of 140 Old 09-03-2013, 10:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
primetimeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 3,709
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

That's a nice FR even with smoothing off. I can visualize. How far from reference do you clip the amp on your sub? If you have BFD, you can tell from the lights. And which sub do you currently run?

I don't know, don't use BFD.  Typically run -10 to -15db below reference for movies and don't think I run into issues.  Have run some near reference but not with earth shattering bass as I know I'll run into issue like clipping and bottoming out.

 

Just running a couple lower end ED subs.  Placement and phase/distance setting plus Audyssey gives me that response.

primetimeguy is online now  
post #134 of 140 Old 09-10-2013, 08:54 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 17,376
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1085 Post(s)
Liked: 1528
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Sure - what is it you are interested in seeing?  I've posted dozens of mine though on the Audyssey thread and the HDMI/USB thread.  To start the ball rolling, and as we were discussing what Audyssey does, here is one showing the effect of Audyssey on and off. This was before my room was treated at all, so it shows what Audyssey can do in a typical living room environment.



I personally do not understand your claim of having good sound if accuracy is your goal.

 

Apologies for delayed reply - I haven't been receiving all my AVS email notifications for some reason.

 

As I said, the above graph was made a long time ago before my room was treated acoustically and before I had optimised speaker and sub placements. 

 

Here is a more recent graph - as you will see, it shows a flat response +/-3.5dB across the full spectrum more or less, with the exception of the bass boost which starts around the XO point (100Hz in my case) and is deliberate. So I personally do not understand your point ;)

 

 

I am sure you will enjoy seeing the output down to 10Hz.

 

Here is an unsmoothed graph showing bass response from 7Hz to 200Hz:

 

Currently, my bass is even flatter below 20Hz because I have engaged Pgm 2 on my dual Submersives, but I don't seem to have a graph of it. Basically it's a 3dB boost from 20Hz down.

 

I made these graphs with OmniMic rather my usual REW as I had lent my mic to a friend for a few days.

 

Any questions?  BTW, the in-room sound is just sensational :)

kbarnes701 is offline  
post #135 of 140 Old 02-11-2014, 09:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kimeran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,203
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 114
Sorry for bringing back a dead thread here but there is a point that I did not see made in this thread that I think would be worth bringing up.

I do not think that separates HAVE to sound better than AVRs.

However, there is the very important aspect of can your amps drive your speakers properly?

Do that amps handle the 4ohm load well etc. Many AVRs cant handle those lower loads.

Also, can your amps driver your speakers to reference levels? What sound level do you feel you need to reach?

If you have higher sensitivity speakers you obviously dont need as much power but can the amps in the AVR handle the loads properly?

That alone is where I can see the majority of the performance difference between AVR and Separates as you can get an amp that control your speakers the best way possible no matter what the preamp is.....that's not to say that amps sound different than others...far from it. just that some amps can handle the different impedance loads better than others.

Personally, I think I will be sticking with AVRs for along time. I just really want to see there to be more features in the different zones....but you will most likely see these features sooner in the AVR market than you will with separates because the market is much larger and more profitable in that area.

Even if I do go with separates it will probably be something like the Anthem MRX line using preouts or Marantz or Yamaha since they are lower priced units with pretty much all the features I would need.

Sure those highend boutique brands are nice for the preamp but I just dont see it as worth the extra cost.

As someone I know has said to me in the past. 10% of the cost will get you 90% of the way there...it's up to you if that 10% of performance of worth the extreme price increase in electronics....

Personally, I am going to be upgrading my speakers and trying to get my wife to allow some room treatments before I bother with separates

Trying to enjoy the simple things in life.

 

Steam: madbrayniak

Kimeran is offline  
post #136 of 140 Old 02-11-2014, 06:12 PM
Member
 
Zomby Woof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 26
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Revived old thread, but I will chime in. One of the main reasons that I went with separates is to keep my investments protected. I first got the bug when I felt my higher end Onkyo may not be delivering the best sound. I was not unhappy at all with the Onkyo, but I had the upgrade bug and invested in a seperate amp and used the Onkyo as a pre-pro.

There was a noticeable improvement in sound, but not jaw dropping. Then my Onkyo had the dreaded HDMI failure. I bought a used Denon in the meantime, which had a better version of Audessey. Another noticeable improvement in sound....

After 4 months, I replaced the Denon with an Emotiva pre-pro. This time the sound improvement was more pronounced, assisted by how cusotmizable the Emo is.

My point is that the electronics, Codecs, etc. change and improve. Couple this with electronic failure issues which can bite any of the companies in the ass, and it seems to me that, quite by accident, I found the best benefit of having separates. My upgrade path at this point is 1/2 the cost of a modern high end receiver, with all of the benefits of new electronics, HDMI2, and other unknown advances.
Zomby Woof is offline  
post #137 of 140 Old 02-12-2014, 07:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kimeran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,203
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 114
That's a good point too Zomby, with separate amps you are buying something that pretty much will last a lifetime as long as it is in a well ventilated spot. When it fails they can also be repaired.

Using a AVR is a very worth while option because of the multi-zone use.

Trying to enjoy the simple things in life.

 

Steam: madbrayniak

Kimeran is offline  
post #138 of 140 Old 02-12-2014, 10:34 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Chad Varnadore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Salisbury, NC
Posts: 1,450
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zomby Woof View Post

Revived old thread, but I will chime in. One of the main reasons that I went with separates is to keep my investments protected. I first got the bug when I felt my higher end Onkyo may not be delivering the best sound. I was not unhappy at all with the Onkyo, but I had the upgrade bug and invested in a seperate amp and used the Onkyo as a pre-pro.

There was a noticeable improvement in sound, but not jaw dropping. Then my Onkyo had the dreaded HDMI failure. I bought a used Denon in the meantime, which had a better version of Audessey. Another noticeable improvement in sound....

After 4 months, I replaced the Denon with an Emotiva pre-pro. This time the sound improvement was more pronounced, assisted by how cusotmizable the Emo is.

My point is that the electronics, Codecs, etc. change and improve. Couple this with electronic failure issues which can bite any of the companies in the ass, and it seems to me that, quite by accident, I found the best benefit of having separates. My upgrade path at this point is 1/2 the cost of a modern high end receiver, with all of the benefits of new electronics, HDMI2, and other unknown advances.

That was part of my thinking when I went to separates some years ago as well. However, I'm in the market for a new AVR and it would seem I still need one of the higher end models to get all the features I want. So I might be going back to using just an integrated unit, depending on how my next AVR sounds by itself.

Something else to think about: in the ever changing digital world, plagued by HDMI and similar compatibility issues and the ever constant need for firmware revisions, I wonder if smaller boutigue players - where pre-pros more commonly come from - with their much smaller markets, potentially lesser resources, less testing, might result in more problems and/or slower updates for those that arise.

Chad Varnadore <><
ex-armchair quarterback
***************
Our HT
Chad Varnadore is offline  
post #139 of 140 Old 02-12-2014, 12:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
kiwi2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,629
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Varnadore View Post

Something else to think about: in the ever changing digital world, plagued by HDMI and similar compatibility issues and the ever constant need for firmware revisions, I wonder if smaller boutigue players - where pre-pros more commonly come from - with their much smaller markets, potentially lesser resources, less testing, might result in more problems and/or slower updates for those that arise.

Yes that seems to be what is happening with what's on the market.
kiwi2 is offline  
post #140 of 140 Old 02-12-2014, 12:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
kiwi2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,629
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post



Kbarnes, I know this is a thread from a few months ago... but do you still run with 55hz about 13dB hotter that the rest of your average...?

Or has your taste changed a bit since then?
kiwi2 is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off