11 channel setup need advice - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
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AVS,

I'm going with Audyssey Neo:X for 11 channel surround and need advice on what to purchase. I've listed a few ways to go about it since there are no 11 channel integrated AVRs yet.

1) Denon/Onkyo 4520/3010 + extra 2 channel XPA-200
2) Denon 4311 + extra 2 channel XPA-200
3) Denon 4311 + My current 7 channel NAD T787 for the amp section
4) 11.1 processor + Yamaha 11 channel amp http://www.crutchfield.com/S-e15GCJXBSMa/p_022MXA5000/Yamaha-MX-A5000.html#overview-tab

As you can see I'm not sure what to do. I don't listen at reference volumes so I don't need a lot of power, just need the NEO:X, XT32 and 11 amps and I'm done.

Some of the questions:

1) Is Yamaha the only one with 11 amps?
2) Are there any stand alone processors that provide 11.1 NEO:X?
3) 4311 might not have Neo:X
4) The Yamaha doesn't look stable into 4 Ohms. Lame
3) Which is the best route to take?

Thanks again
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post #2 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 07:08 AM
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Neither the 4311CI or A100 feature DTS Neo:X as it was only first just released on the 4520CI and now also on the X4000 (9CH capable with 2CH amp).

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post #3 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 08:54 AM
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I would opt for 3. Why buy an amp when you already have a good one? Use it to drive everything but the front heights and wides.

As mentioned above, the 4311 doesn't support neo:x, but you can get 11 channels using audyseey dsx.

I wouldn't worry about the Yamaha not stating it supports 4 ohm speakers. Every amp can play 4 ohm speakers, the only issue is with 4 ohm as opposed to 8 ohm, you won't be able blast them quite as loud. Since you don't play loud, it's a non issue.

Another option for 11 channel is to get an Onkyo 929 with an external amp. it supports neo:x, but be aware Onkyo's have a poor track record in terms of reliability. Particulary if you can't give them a lot of breathing room.
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post #4 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I would opt for 3. Why buy an amp when you already have a good one? Use it to drive everything but the front heights and wides.

As mentioned above, the 4311 doesn't support neo:x, but you can get 11 channels using audyseey dsx.

I wouldn't worry about the Yamaha not stating it supports 4 ohm speakers. Every amp can play 4 ohm speakers, the only issue is with 4 ohm as opposed to 8 ohm, you won't be able blast them quite as loud. Since you don't play loud, it's a non issue.

Another option for 11 channel is to get an Onkyo 929 with an external amp. it supports neo:x, but be aware Onkyo's have a poor track record in terms of reliability. Particulary if you can't give them a lot of breathing room.

Thanks Kid, do you suggest the 4520 then? The reason is I heard Neo:x extracts the extra two channels from the soundtracks differently than DSX and poeple favor it.

Yeah I like the T787 but it's expensive just for a few of its amps. Could sell it and buy a cheap Emotiva and save money.

So sell NAD, buy used 4520 and XPA-200?

Thanks man
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post #5 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 09:07 AM
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I would look at Yamaha. They have a 11 ch pre / pro setup now.
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post #6 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stangdriverdoug View Post

I would look at Yamaha. They have a 11 ch pre / pro setup now.

The 3020 right? I see it doesn't do XT32 and not sure about Neo:x
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post #7 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 09:26 AM
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I purchased the CX-A5000 preamp when it was released and paired with my ATI AT2007 and ATI AT2004 amps (11 Channels of 200W) I could not be happier. The Yamaha IMO is and excellent prepro and is worth a look. To put price in perspective, my two amps were 2.5K and 2K respectfully so the Yamaha amp is actually a good deal at it's price point. There are a couple of sales on line that combine both the Prepro and Amp in a package at a reduced price.smile.gif

http://www.kraftmusic.com/yamaha-aventage-cx-a5000-network-av-pre-amplifier-with-mx-a5000-av-power-amplifier-theater-essentials-bundle.html

Yamaha CX-A5000, ATI AT 2007 Amp (7X200W), ATI AT 2004 Amp (4X200W)Klipsch RF 63's - Main, RB 61's - Front heights, RC-62 - Center, RS-62's - Surround, RS-52's - Rear Surround, 2 Rythmik DS-1510 DIY Subwoofers (With PEQ600XLR3 Amp) each connected with Antimode 8033S-II, Oppo BDP-95, MMF-7.1, Project Phono Box RS, XBox 360, XBox One
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post #8 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 09:29 AM
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I would also consider the Onkyo TX-NR929. I think the reliability issue was centered around the HDMI board, which according to Onkyo, was corrected. I have the 929 and when I get done juggling my speakers around, I might even return my 90 pound Outlaw 7 channel amp and use four of the 929 powered channels. But if and when I go to eleven channels I might just add a 2 channel amp.

If I add a second identical sub, I think I'll be alright with it's paralleled sub outs. But for the same money you could get the Denon X4000 with Audyssey Sub EQ HD if you had different subs in non-similar locations. But it has seven powered channels at 5 watts less each channel.

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post #9 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by smitty8451 View Post

I purchased the CX-A5000 preamp when it was released and paired with my ATI AT2007 and ATI AT2004 amps (11 Channels of 200W) I could not be happier. The Yamaha IMO is and excellent prepro and is worth a look. To put price in perspective, my two amps were 2.5K and 2K respectfully so the Yamaha amp is actually a good deal at it's price point. There are a couple of sales on line that combine both the Prepro and Amp in a package at a reduced price.smile.gif

http://www.kraftmusic.com/yamaha-aventage-cx-a5000-network-av-pre-amplifier-with-mx-a5000-av-power-amplifier-theater-essentials-bundle.html

Cool that's just what I was looking for. I simple two piece solution that doens't waste amps/money. Only it doesn't have Audyssey Neo:x meaning it can't extract real 11.1 information out of Neo encoded blu-rays like in Expendables 2. Unless I'm mistaken? but didn't see anything in the link.

Any other processors that do 11.1, xt32 and Audyssey Neo:x?
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post #10 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Patrick Collins View Post

I would also consider the Onkyo TX-NR929. I think the reliability issue was centered around the HDMI board, which according to Onkyo, was corrected. I have the 929 and when I get done juggling my speakers around, I might even return my 90 pound Outlaw 7 channel amp and use four of the 929 powered channels. But if and when I go to eleven channels I might just add a 2 channel amp.

If I add a second identical sub, I think I'll be alright with it's paralleled sub outs. But for the same money you could get the Denon X4000 with Audyssey Sub EQ HD if you had different subs in non-similar locations. But it has seven powered channels at 5 watts less each channel.

I'm confused what the differences are between the 929 and 3010. They both have XT32 and Audysssey Neo:X and support for 11.1? Why such the difference in price?
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post #11 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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post #12 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Cool that's just what I was looking for. I simple two piece solution that doens't waste amps/money. Only it doesn't have Audyssey Neo:x meaning it can't extract real 11.1 information out of Neo encoded blu-rays like in Expendables 2. Unless I'm mistaken? but didn't see anything in the link.

Any other processors that do 11.1, xt32 and Audyssey Neo:x?

The Yamaha does there own DSP's for 11 channel and I find it sounds quite good IMO (I own the Expendables 2 Blue Ray). The only pre-amp I am aware of that may do all that you ask is the Marantz 8801 but even then I am not sure if it has NEO:X capability but it might. Please bear in mind that there are very few 11.1 encoded Blue Ray Movies on the market and the standard at the moment is 7.1 so It may take a bit for the market to implement true 11 Channel encoded receivers/preamps. BTW Yamaha uses YPAO for its speaker setup and calibration while Marantz uses Audyssey. There are various opinions on both but I believe in auditioning your equipment and getting what sounds good to YOU. I personally like YPAO over Audyssey after listning to both pretty thoroughly in a well designed and acustically treated environment but again that is MY opinion.

Yamaha CX-A5000, ATI AT 2007 Amp (7X200W), ATI AT 2004 Amp (4X200W)Klipsch RF 63's - Main, RB 61's - Front heights, RC-62 - Center, RS-62's - Surround, RS-52's - Rear Surround, 2 Rythmik DS-1510 DIY Subwoofers (With PEQ600XLR3 Amp) each connected with Antimode 8033S-II, Oppo BDP-95, MMF-7.1, Project Phono Box RS, XBox 360, XBox One
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post #13 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 11:17 AM
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It might be worth remembering here that for the last eight months (starting just after CES 2013) DTS has shown a "revised" Neo:X 11.1 configuration with four height speakers on their website (link) with no explanation for that change?! cool.gif



Perhaps we might hear some pertinent information at CEDIA 2013 this September or at CES 2014 next January...?! biggrin.gif
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post #14 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

It might be worth remembering here that for the last eight months (starting just after CES 2013) DTS has shown a "revised" Neo:X 11.1 configuration with four height speakers on their website (link) with no explanation for that change?! cool.gif



Perhaps we might hear some pertinent information at CEDIA 2013 this September or at CES 2014 next January...?! biggrin.gif
_

Interesting. I'll cross that bridge when it arrives
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post #15 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

It might be worth remembering here that for the last eight months (starting just after CES 2013) DTS has shown a "revised" Neo:X 11.1 configuration with four height speakers on their website (link) with no explanation for that change?! cool.gif



Perhaps we might hear some pertinent information at CEDIA 2013 this September or at CES 2014 next January...?! biggrin.gif
_

This is what the CX-A5000 has for speaker setup which is;
Front
Front Height
Surround
Surround Back
Rear Height
Center
Subwoofer (X2)

Wonder what is going on, as yamaha has had that config for a couple of years now, even though it may be unrelated and just a coincidence.

Yamaha CX-A5000, ATI AT 2007 Amp (7X200W), ATI AT 2004 Amp (4X200W)Klipsch RF 63's - Main, RB 61's - Front heights, RC-62 - Center, RS-62's - Surround, RS-52's - Rear Surround, 2 Rythmik DS-1510 DIY Subwoofers (With PEQ600XLR3 Amp) each connected with Antimode 8033S-II, Oppo BDP-95, MMF-7.1, Project Phono Box RS, XBox 360, XBox One
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post #16 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the advice everyone.

Unless someone recomends something else I'm going with the Marantz 8801 pre into a Yamaha 11 amp MX-A5000 with xlr connections. It seems to simplify everything using pre-pro until integrated finally comes out with 11 amps.

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/aventage/mx-a5000_black_u/
http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=AVSeparates&SubCatId=0&ProductId=AV8801

So does this sound better than doing a fudged 3010 + UPA-200?

Thanks again
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post #17 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty8451 View Post

This is what the CX-A5000 has for speaker setup which is;
Front
Front Height
Surround
Surround Back
Rear Height
Center
Subwoofer (X2)

Wonder what is going on, as yamaha has had that config for a couple of years now, even though it may be unrelated and just a coincidence.

Edit: They just removed the wides and put them as rear hights? So I guess the wides are integrated with the hights now? Maybe Yamaha was on top of the curve.
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post #18 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Unless someone recomends something else I'm going with the Marantz 8801 pre into a Yamaha 11 amp MX-A5000 with xlr connections. It seems to simplify everything using pre-pro until integrated finally comes out with 11 amps.

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/aventage/mx-a5000_black_u/
http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=AVSeparates&SubCatId=0&ProductId=AV8801

So does this sound better than doing a fudged 3010 + UPA-200?

Thanks again

I think your setup would work well, just remember that the Marantz needs a good amount of space around it as it does run a bit warm. There is a post just for that unit and I would suggest reading it to get a good understanding of it as there is a lot of cool features buried in the setup menu. One thing though that kept me from buying it is it does not have HDMI standby selectable passthorugh. This means that you set an HDMI input as a default device when the unit is in standbye and the signal will go thorugh it to your TV without having to turn the unit on. On the yamaha they do have selectable HDMI standbye which means even when the unit is in standby you can select with the remote what hdmi input you want to go the TV and the signal will switch without having to turn the unit on. I asked this question on the Marantz forum and it was the key factor in getting the Yamaha as there are a lot of times I just want to watch tv using its speakers instead of turning the unit on. You will be happy on whichever route you take regardless.

Yamaha CX-A5000, ATI AT 2007 Amp (7X200W), ATI AT 2004 Amp (4X200W)Klipsch RF 63's - Main, RB 61's - Front heights, RC-62 - Center, RS-62's - Surround, RS-52's - Rear Surround, 2 Rythmik DS-1510 DIY Subwoofers (With PEQ600XLR3 Amp) each connected with Antimode 8033S-II, Oppo BDP-95, MMF-7.1, Project Phono Box RS, XBox 360, XBox One
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post #19 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by smitty8451 View Post

I think your setup would work well, just remember that the Marantz needs a good amount of space around it as it does run a bit warm. There is a post just for that unit and I would suggest reading it to get a good understanding of it as there is a lot of cool features buried in the setup menu. One thing though that kept me from buying it is it does not have HDMI standby selectable passthorugh. This means that you set an HDMI input as a default device when the unit is in standbye and the signal will go thorugh it to your TV without having to turn the unit on. On the yamaha they do have selectable HDMI standbye which means even when the unit is in standby you can select with the remote what hdmi input you want to go the TV and the signal will switch without having to turn the unit on. I asked this question on the Marantz forum and it was the key factor in getting the Yamaha as there are a lot of times I just want to watch tv using its speakers instead of turning the unit on. You will be happy on whichever route you take regardless.

Thanks Smitty, I'd love to keep it in the family however, I can't audition them both in my room so I have to go with what's safest and more common i.e. Audyssey setup. I'll cram on the Marantz and look at the CX-5000 as well before purchasing though.

Edit: my dealer did say he dropped Yamaha because of complaints. I'll look into the MX-5000 reviews myself.
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post #20 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Thanks Kid, do you suggest the 4520 then? The reason is I heard Neo:x extracts the extra two channels from the soundtracks differently than DSX and poeple favor it.

Yeah I like the T787 but it's expensive just for a few of its amps. Could sell it and buy a cheap Emotiva and save money.

So sell NAD, buy used 4520 and XPA-200?

Thanks man

I have the 4311 so I can't comment on neo:x, but the 4520 is a top of the line receiver and does what you need.

If you already have the NAD, why not use it instead of trying to sell it and buy another amp? You can use all 7 channels and let the receiver handle the other 4. That's what I would to.
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post #21 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Thanks Smitty, I think this works. I'd love to keep it in the family however, I can't audition them both in my room so I have to go with what's safest and more common i.e. Audyssey setup. I'll cram on the Marantz and look at the CX-5000 as well before purchasing though.

Edit: my dealer did say he dropped Yamaha because of complaints. I'll look into the MX-5000 reviews myself.

On thing I have learned over time being an audiphile is dealers will carry and push certain brands above others or they have had a bad experience with there manufacturer rep. I take what a dealer says as opinion and base my decisions on hard facts. If you do a search on the internet you will see that both Yamaha and Marantz have outstanding support and some of the lowest complaints of any of the audio component makers and a high reliability factor. In fact I have 2 RX-A3010 units bought 2 years ago, 1 Yamaha RX-V2500 that was bought in 2006 and now a CX-A5000. They all work flawlessly and are not problematic in the least. I think either way you go again, you will not regret it. The best of luck and enjoy your new system.smile.gif

Yamaha CX-A5000, ATI AT 2007 Amp (7X200W), ATI AT 2004 Amp (4X200W)Klipsch RF 63's - Main, RB 61's - Front heights, RC-62 - Center, RS-62's - Surround, RS-52's - Rear Surround, 2 Rythmik DS-1510 DIY Subwoofers (With PEQ600XLR3 Amp) each connected with Antimode 8033S-II, Oppo BDP-95, MMF-7.1, Project Phono Box RS, XBox 360, XBox One
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post #22 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty8451 View Post

This is what the CX-A5000 has for speaker setup which is;
Front
Front Height
Surround
Surround Back
Rear Height
Center
Subwoofer (X2)

Wonder what is going on, as yamaha has had that config for a couple of years now, even though it may be unrelated and just a coincidence.

So the Yamaha has no wides? It's just hight in the front and hight in the rear? I kinda like this as I don't have much room for wides.
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post #23 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I have the 4311 so I can't comment on neo:x, but the 4520 is a top of the line receiver and does what you need.

If you already have the NAD, why not use it instead of trying to sell it and buy another amp? You can use all 7 channels and let the receiver handle the other 4. That's what I would to.

Because buying two AVRs and patching them feels wasteful. It seems better to buy the pre-pro meant for 11 channel or the Onkyo 3010 for instance and then a two channel Emotiva for like $300 bucks which I might do instread. It's cheaper and easier to toss when 11 channel amps come out with a new Audyssey and HDMI 2.0 for 4k.
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post #24 of 25 Old 09-13-2013, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

So the Yamaha has no wides? It's just hight in the front and hight in the rear? I kinda like this as I don't have much room for wides.

Yes the Yamaha uses Height speaker for both front and rear. One thing that I have learned over the years is a pre-pro and amp might be expensive on initial buy, but once bought you would only have to trade up the prepro as newer technology comes out a good amp will last a long time (I have a carver 3 channel amp I bought in 1986 at my first military duty station) that is still going strong today. I have upgraded only my pre-pro as needed.

1986 - Carver C-16
1994 - Yamaha C-80
2004 - B&K Reference 50 S2
2010 - Yamaha RX-A3010 (temp replacement for B&K)
2013 - Yamaha CX-A5000

1986 - Carver AV-64 to present
1992 - Carver TFM-35 X2 to present
2005 - ATI AT 2007, and ATI AT 2004 to present

IMO seperates done right will outlast and cost less than any receiver amp combo over the long run.

Hope this gives you some more info. Again either way I think you will be pleased by the combo of pre-pro and amp your looking at.

Yamaha CX-A5000, ATI AT 2007 Amp (7X200W), ATI AT 2004 Amp (4X200W)Klipsch RF 63's - Main, RB 61's - Front heights, RC-62 - Center, RS-62's - Surround, RS-52's - Rear Surround, 2 Rythmik DS-1510 DIY Subwoofers (With PEQ600XLR3 Amp) each connected with Antimode 8033S-II, Oppo BDP-95, MMF-7.1, Project Phono Box RS, XBox 360, XBox One
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post #25 of 25 Old 09-15-2013, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by smitty8451 View Post

Yes the Yamaha uses Height speaker for both front and rear. One thing that I have learned over the years is a pre-pro and amp might be expensive on initial buy, but once bought you would only have to trade up the prepro as newer technology comes out a good amp will last a long time (I have a carver 3 channel amp I bought in 1986 at my first military duty station) that is still going strong today. I have upgraded only my pre-pro as needed.

1986 - Carver C-16
1994 - Yamaha C-80
2004 - B&K Reference 50 S2
2010 - Yamaha RX-A3010 (temp replacement for B&K)
2013 - Yamaha CX-A5000

1986 - Carver AV-64 to present
1992 - Carver TFM-35 X2 to present
2005 - ATI AT 2007, and ATI AT 2004 to present

IMO seperates done right will outlast and cost less than any receiver amp combo over the long run.

Hope this gives you some more info. Again either way I think you will be pleased by the combo of pre-pro and amp your looking at.

Thanks
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