"Official" Emotiva UMC-200 Thread - Page 11 - AVS Forum
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post #301 of 598 Old 06-11-2014, 01:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

More features for sure. Most features only matter if you want redundancy. I have had many AVR's and none had better SQ. Of course it seems most jump at the latest feature and could care less about sound quality.

The guy said "You cannot get a better value (price/features/performance) anywhere." and this is simply not true.
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post #302 of 598 Old 06-12-2014, 12:36 PM
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The UMC-200 does have some flaws, but if the flaws are in features that you do not use then it is a great unit.

I think the UMC-200 offers a unique value. At its price it is difficult to get a good sounding unit with 11 band PEQ for 5 channels and 3 band PEQ for sub channel. This particular feature along with its natural/pure (insert non-processed adjective here) sound is where the value lies.

Are there better units? Depends on what you are after. There are units that sound better (subjective). There are units that have more features (objective). There are units that have better room correction software (subjective). There are better units that include better DACs (objective). Wrapped up in a single small package with it's price tag the UMC-200 is a pretty good value.
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post #303 of 598 Old 06-13-2014, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
The guy said "You cannot get a better value (price/features/performance) anywhere." and this is simply not true.
As others have said, it depends upon your definition of 'value.' There is no value to me in using this unit as an expensive overkill headphone amp. Nor is there value in redundant features, and stuff I never use. It does everything I want and more in my home theater, for less than $500 delivered, and I get an excellent discount when I upgrade. This unit was designed for home theater, and it's value is superior to me in that respect. Lastly, my statement is one of opinion, as is everyone's. I think that might be obvious.
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post #304 of 598 Old 06-13-2014, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by oatmeal769 View Post
As others have said, it depends upon your definition of 'value.' There is no value to me in using this unit as an expensive overkill headphone amp. Nor is there value in redundant features, and stuff I never use. It does everything I want and more in my home theater, for less than $500 delivered, and I get an excellent discount when I upgrade. This unit was designed for home theater, and it's value is superior to me in that respect.
Makes your initial statement ("You cannot get a better value (price/features/performance) anywhere.") even less comprehensible. If you believe that using the headphone output would turn the UMC-200 in "an expensive overkill headphone amp" then why recommend the UMC-200 if there is no "value in redundant features, and stuff I never use"?

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Originally Posted by oatmeal769 View Post
Lastly, my statement is one of opinion, as is everyone's. I think that might be obvious.
No, it was not obvious. Saying "You cannot get a better value (price/features/performance) anywhere." is different from saying "In my opinion you cannot get a better value (price/features/performance) anywhere."

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post #305 of 598 Old 06-13-2014, 10:15 AM
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It's comprehensible to everyone except chatboard grumps, I guess. I didn't say that '"using the headphone output would turn the UMC-200 in "an expensive overkill headphone amp."'

Saying "in my opinion" in this case, would be redundant. It's obviously my opinion.

I like the unit. You don't. It's a difference in opinion. The poster asked for opinions and I gave mine. Yours is no more or less valid.
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post #306 of 598 Old 06-13-2014, 10:54 AM
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Imo

Markus, let me preface this by saying I enjoy reading your posts, very informative but..

After over 4,000 posts you should understand that EVERYTHING is by default IMO, regardless of who the poster is.

Otherwise you may just go insane!
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Mitsubishi WD73-742, Oppo BDP-103, Gallo 3.1/ Reference AV center/ Adiva-ti surrounds, Emotiva UMC-200/ XPA-5/ XPA-3, Toshiba HD-A3. Roku XS

 

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post #307 of 598 Old 06-13-2014, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
There are units that have better room correction software (subjective). There are better units that include better DACs (objective).
You don't think that the performance of room correction software (how well it addresses peaks & dips in the frequency response) can be measured objectively, the way DAC performance can?

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post #308 of 598 Old 06-13-2014, 11:36 AM
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It's possible to measure the difference room eq makes, but whether you like what room eq is doing or not is very subjective.
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post #309 of 598 Old 06-13-2014, 11:59 AM
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You don't think the same could be said for DACs (irrespective of measurements, whether you like the resulting sound or not is subjective)?
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post #310 of 598 Old 06-13-2014, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Repdetect View Post
Markus, let me preface this by saying I enjoy reading your posts, very informative but..

After over 4,000 posts you should understand that EVERYTHING is by default IMO, regardless of who the poster is.

Otherwise you may just go insane!
Goodness, I have to take issue with the idea that everything is by default IMO. Many debates and arguments occur around here often from the "objectivist" side in which the debate is over because they state indisputable facts, not opinions, on amp SQ which can not be questioned. Ever. Their posts are filled with fact, not opinion, and they can prove it to you on that and many other topics which arise.

So I concur that if you're not actually stating "IMO", then you are presenting something as actual fact, not opinion.
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post #311 of 598 Old 06-13-2014, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by oatmeal769 View Post
It's comprehensible to everyone except chatboard grumps, I guess.
No need to get personal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal769 View Post
I didn't say that '"using the headphone output would turn the UMC-200 in "an expensive overkill headphone amp."'
So what were you trying to say? "I like the unit"? Then just say that and don't try to make your personal likes sound like objective facts. This is what you've said: "You cannot get a better value (price/features/performance) anywhere."

Markus

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post #312 of 598 Old 06-13-2014, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Repdetect View Post
Markus, let me preface this by saying I enjoy reading your posts, very informative but..

After over 4,000 posts you should understand that EVERYTHING is by default IMO, regardless of who the poster is.

Otherwise you may just go insane!
There's a difference between stating that "green is my favorite color" and saying "green is the favorite color". Even 4k posts don't change that fact.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #313 of 598 Old 06-13-2014, 04:27 PM
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With regard to value as in the much quoted: "You cannot get a better value (price/features/performance) anywhere."

Value is subjective, therefore opinion.

can we get back on topic now?
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post #314 of 598 Old 06-13-2014, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rokbyter View Post
With regard to value as in the much quoted: "You cannot get a better value (price/features/performance) anywhere."

Value is subjective, therefore opinion.

can we get back on topic now?
You can't be serious. Any positive comment about Emotiva always results in off topic discussions.

What do you want to know that is on topic?
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post #315 of 598 Old 06-13-2014, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
You can't be serious. Any positive comment about Emotiva always results in off topic discussions.

What do you want to know that is on topic?
hahahaha, sad but true.

I'd like to hear about people's decision process - what they cross-shopped, what their needs were, how this fulfills them or doesn't, what made them go with it over the other products they considered. Their impressions beyond OMG LOVE IT, which tells us nothing really, did they compare it to what they had before, what was better/worse, etc. Technical issues, how they got solved... on-topic stuff. Not this pedantic internet slap fight.
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post #316 of 598 Old 06-14-2014, 12:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rokbyter View Post
With regard to value as in the much quoted: "You cannot get a better value (price/features/performance) anywhere."

Value is subjective, therefore opinion.
He explicitly specified his criteria for "value": "price/features/performance". In my book price for example is not subjective.

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Originally Posted by rokbyter View Post
can we get back on topic now?
Have you read post #1 ? What else do you want to know?

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post #317 of 598 Old 06-14-2014, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by rokbyter View Post
hahahaha, sad but true.

I'd like to hear about people's decision process - what they cross-shopped, what their needs were, how this fulfills them or doesn't, what made them go with it over the other products they considered. Their impressions beyond OMG LOVE IT, which tells us nothing really, did they compare it to what they had before, what was better/worse, etc. Technical issues, how they got solved... on-topic stuff. Not this pedantic internet slap fight.
For me, my Onkyo sr806 was having too many problems after 7 years of service. About 5 years of that, the center channel amp relay would not click on for multichannel content. I had an external amp for my mains, but ended up running the mains off the onkyo, and using one of the channels of the stereo amp to power the center channel.

This worked fine for some time. Always had issues with slow HDMI. Always had issues with center channel intelligibility. I could up the center volume, but it just got louder, but it seemed to not ever sound good.

The for the past year, on start up, there would be popping noises on all channels. After heat up, it would go away.
I did the 'heat gun' trick, thinking it was some soldier that might have cracked/etc over time. The heat gun trick seemed to work maybe a day or two at a time where the pops would go away. Anyhow.. I didn't want to deal with it anymore.. didn't want to check caps, etc.

I started shopping, and the main contenders were lowest cost with pre-outs (I wanted to keep using the amps I invested in, regardless if my speakers really didn't need the wattage):
1) Emotiva UMC-200
2) Outlaw 975
3) Yamaha RX-v775
4) Yamaha RX-A830

I think I was really thinking about what would last the longest. Having built-in amp issues with the Onkyo left a bad taste in my mouth. I wanted to go separates. But looking at the pricing, pre/pro + amp these days cost more than all-in-one receiver.

I was agonized that the main CE receivers had ALOT of feature/functionality.
The Emotiva and Outlaw units had SIGNIFICANTLY less features, as far as streaming, sound fields, etc.. AND 5+ channel amps were at least $400+.
The Emotiva and Outlaw units had the 'potential' for better sound? Cleaner? I didn't know. Just had a bunch of threads I read. A bunch of opinions.

Truthfully, I was going to purchase thhe RX-v775 when it was on closeout special for $450.. missed that sale.

I think what made me purchase the UMC-200 + UPA5 amp, was:
1) 5 year warranty. This was only valuable if the features provided were sufficient for me
2) 30 day return policy. Heck, try it, and see for yourself.
3) Reading good reviews about the UPA5.
4) Parametric EQ
5) Tax return, through Turbo Tax, I elected to receive some sum as an Amazon gift card. They gave +10%.

Anyhow, in all honesty, I just BIT THE BULLET, and ordered it all.
With all the testing/QA folks on this board did on the UMC-200, I more or less knew what I was getting into, and the shortcomings/issues.

In all, all said, it works great for me. In all honesty, I could have been even happier with one of the yamahas, or any other new mass market units. I don't know any better at this point, but I'm happy enough with the setup that I'm not feeling I made the wrong decision and generally not even interested in entertaining trying anything else out... for now.

As far as the cost of pre/pro + amp, generally, I am not happy with feature/price the current market presents. But part of me also wanted to support the lower end pre/pro market, and hopefully in time, more units will arise and at even lower price points.

I guess one more thing I was thinking was, I didn't mind buying amps, as they at least usually hold some value for many years.
AV receivers, however, end up almost worthless when the tech in it gets dated. The UMC-200 will likely be technologically worthless by 5 years time perhaps, but the UPA5 should still be sellable with some value.
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post #318 of 598 Old 06-14-2014, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rokbyter View Post
With regard to value as in the much quoted: "You cannot get a better value (price/features/performance) anywhere."

Value is subjective, therefore opinion
Exactly.

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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
He explicitly specified his criteria for "value": "price/features/performance". In my book price for example is not subjective.
A dollar amount alone is objective. Value = the regard that something is held to deserve. = opinion. What is valuable to some is worthless to others. Price is just a number until it's compared to something of value. When compared with performance/features, the purchaser judges (makes an opinion) value.
I will state my (obvious) opinion again. That is, for the money, you cannot get better value.
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
Any positive comment about Emotiva always results in off topic discussions.
How 'bout them KINGS!!
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post #319 of 598 Old 06-14-2014, 02:19 PM
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The UMC-200 has had its share of issues, enough that I stayed away after the UMC-1 experience. Emotiva can produce fine amplifiers but they are out of their league with processors.
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post #320 of 598 Old 06-14-2014, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
The UMC-200 has had its share of issues, enough that I stayed away after the UMC-1 experience. Emotiva can produce fine amplifiers but they are out of their league with processors.
Which issues would cause problems in your use of the UMC-200?
What did you go with?
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post #321 of 598 Old 06-14-2014, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
The UMC-200 has had its share of issues, enough that I stayed away after the UMC-1 experience. Emotiva can produce fine amplifiers but they are out of their league with processors.
Which issues would cause problems in your use of the UMC-200?
What did you go with?
Marcus has adeptly outlined the issues quite well in this thread. Go back to the beginning of this thread and start at his first post. There are also several threads over at the Emotiva Lounge including discussion of the complicated firmware upgrade procedure.

I have the Pioneer SC-1522 and SC-1323 AVRs that I was able to purchase at or below the cost of the XMC-200 I also have the Pioneer SC-07. The Pioneer AVR's have served me well over time.
I use these along with the several Emotiva amps that I own.
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post #322 of 598 Old 06-15-2014, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
The UMC-200 has had its share of issues, enough that I stayed away after the UMC-1 experience. Emotiva can produce fine amplifiers but they are out of their league with processors.
Which issues would cause problems in your use of the UMC-200?
What did you go with?
Marcus has adeptly outlined the issues quite well in this thread. Go back to the beginning of this thread and start at his first post. There are also several threads over at the Emotiva Lounge including discussion of the complicated firmware upgrade procedure.

I have the Pioneer SC-1522 and SC-1323 AVRs that I was able to purchase at or below the cost of the XMC-200 I also have the Pioneer SC-07. The Pioneer AVR's have served me well over time.
I use these along with the several Emotiva amps that I own.
I have read all of the thread. I was just wondering if anything that Marcus listed would have a negative impact on your personal use. I have the UMC-200 and IMO it sounds better than the SC-1523 that I returned with a faulty HDMI input. Also, I also prefer the EMO RC to Pioneer's.
Upgrades have always been a pain with EMO. I have not had a reason to upgrade the 200 so no problem for me personally. I usually avoid them on all components.
There is no one for all. However, not every negative that is reported impacts all users. I have avoided Onlyo because their issues can impact all users.
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post #323 of 598 Old 06-15-2014, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I have the UMC-200 and IMO it sounds better than the SC-1523 that I returned with a faulty HDMI input. Also, I also prefer the EMO RC to Pioneer's.
Emo-Q is broken beyond repair. First, it uses just a single mic position. Why that is a bad idea has been explained in numerous papers and books. Second, Emo-Q boosts at frequencies that can't be fixed by EQ (because those regions are non-minimum phase).

Your comment just shows again the invalidity of subjective listening experiences. Without controlling bias the result of such a test is arbitrary and has no universal meaning. People are just fooling themselves and others.

Let me know if you need OBJECTIVE references for what I've said above. I have plenty.

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However, not every negative that is reported impacts all users. I have avoided Onlyo because their issues can impact all users.
How is the UMC-200 an exception to that?

P.S. I was wondering how long it would take you to bring up Onkyo

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post #324 of 598 Old 06-15-2014, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
I have the UMC-200 and IMO it sounds better than the SC-1523 that I returned with a faulty HDMI input. Also, I also prefer the EMO RC to Pioneer's.
Emo-Q is broken beyond repair. First, it uses just a single mic position. Why that is a bad idea has been explained in numerous papers and books. Second, Emo-Q boosts at frequencies that can't be fixed by EQ (because those regions are non-minimum phase).

Your comment just shows again the invalidity of subjective listening experiences. Without controlling bias the result of such a test is arbitrary and has no universal meaning. People are just fooling themselves and others.

Let me know if you need OBJECTIVE references for what I've said above. I have plenty.
Who wrote the papers? Audyssey. I have used rc in Sony, Pioneer, Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, HK and Emotiva. You seem unable to hear a difference unless it can be measured. I am fortunate in that I can have a preference without any intervention. If you can't tell a difference without guidance why no settle for no rc?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
However, not every negative that is reported impacts all users. I have avoided Onlyo because their issues can impact all users.
How is the UMC-200 an exception to that?

P.S. I was wondering how long it would take you to bring up Onkyo [/QUOTE]

I do not use headphones (one example). Why do I care if it has a bug.
Why is it taboo to mention Onkyo. Like you, I do not want others to buy a buggy unit. BTW, do you still use Onkyo? If not, what do you use?
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post #325 of 598 Old 06-15-2014, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Who wrote the papers? Audyssey.
People write papers and books. There are papers by Kyriakakis on the topic but there are many more papers by other authors that are not affiliated with Audyssey at all. Quite the contrary, they are competitors.
Anyhow, those papers are peer reviewed and provide objective data. It's up to you to read them and verify the contents. That's the difference between science and religion. Currently you seem to opt for the latter.

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I have used rc in Sony, Pioneer, Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, HK and Emotiva. You seem unable to hear a difference unless it can be measured. I am fortunate in that I can have a preference without any intervention. If you can't tell a difference without guidance why no settle for no rc?
First, stop try to discredit me by implying I would have some kind of hearing problem and second, you're missing the point. The point is that NO ONE can escape bias. You can NOT look at the following graphic without bias. The length of the horizontal line of the upper and lower part will always look different to you. Even if you know that the length is exactly the same, you can't escape bias.
You seem to think you could. You can't. You're just fooling yourself.



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I do not use headphones (one example). Why do I care if it has a bug.
You shouldn't. But why spend money on features that a) you don't need and b) are broken?
Anyhow I still don't understand how Emotiva issues and Onkyo issues relate to each other.

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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
Why is it taboo to mention Onkyo. Like you, I do not want others to buy a buggy unit.
It's not tabu to mention Onkyo, it's just peculiar that you always bring up issues with Onkyo devices when people discuss issues with Emotiva devices. I simply don't understand how the bugs of an Onkyo device would make the bugs of an Emotiva device go away. Bugs are bugs, they should be eliminated by any manufacturer. Nevertheless, last time I checked Onkyo is actively working on eliminating bugs whereas Emotiva is doing nothing. Need an example?
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post #326 of 598 Old 06-15-2014, 10:22 PM
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Yeah, the single PEQ measure point is subpar when all the other AVRs in this price range (UMC-200 + AMP) have multipoint.
Anyway, this was another known issue.. issues with Emo-Q not all that accurate nor consistent.

I'm personally still working to get a mic and run REW.
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post #327 of 598 Old 06-16-2014, 06:25 PM
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There is little question that Emo-Q is pretty far off. In my case, I have large main speakers with built-in subs and Emo-Q set the crossover at something like 220hz for the main speakers. That being said, after manually tweaking the bass cutoffs by hand, I do like the sound with the Emo-Q enabled in my room better than no EQ. I have all the equipment for REW, just haven't been able to dedicate time to use it.
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post #328 of 598 Old 06-18-2014, 04:32 PM
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If I may, I would like to ask several questions in regards to connecting this unit (or any preamp) to an amplifier.


1. Right now I am running 5.1 speakers. Would I be able to connect all 7 channels to the amp even though I would only be connecting 5 speakers for now? Or should I just connect 5 channels.


2. Can I use a set of component cables that have 3 video and 2 audio connectors or for that matter any type of RCA cable? Or is there a special type of RCA cable I should use.


New topic. For those of you that do not like the umc 200, can you advise some alternatives? My main interests are movies, TV, and an occasional music cd. I do not need legacy connectors, will not be connecting a computer, etc. I am thinking of pairing this unit with the upa 700 (will happily take suggestions there too).


Thank you all for your help and suggestions.
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post #329 of 598 Old 06-18-2014, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderduck View Post
1. Right now I am running 5.1 speakers. Would I be able to connect all 7 channels to the amp even though I would only be connecting 5 speakers for now? Or should I just connect 5 channels.
You can connect all 7, just make sure to tell the UMC-200 that you're only running 5 - it should realize that, though. Is there a reason why you would want to connect all 7, though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderduck View Post
2. Can I use a set of component cables that have 3 video and 2 audio connectors or for that matter any type of RCA cable? Or is there a special type of RCA cable I should use.
Any RCA cable will 'work'. Higher quality RCA cables will be better - not necessarily more expensive, but higher build quality. Check Monoprice or BlueJean Cables when you're ready to upgrade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderduck View Post
New topic. For those of you that do not like the umc 200, can you advise some alternatives? My main interests are movies, TV, and an occasional music cd. I do not need legacy connectors, will not be connecting a computer, etc. I am thinking of pairing this unit with the upa 700 (will happily take suggestions there too).
I am running the UMC-200 with the UPA-700 and have been very pleased with the results. There are well-documented quirks, but if they don't effect your use, it's a fantastic value.

I love my iPhone, but it will never replace my turntable.

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post #330 of 598 Old 06-18-2014, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillcat View Post
You can connect all 7, just make sure to tell the UMC-200 that you're only running 5 - it should realize that, though. Is there a reason why you would want to connect all 7, though...

Any RCA cable will 'work'. Higher quality RCA cables will be better - not necessarily more expensive, but higher build quality. Check Monoprice or BlueJean Cables when you're ready to upgrade.

I am running the UMC-200 with the UPA-700 and have been very pleased with the results. There are well-documented quirks, but if they don't effect your use, it's a fantastic value.

Thrillcat,


Thank you very much for your input.


Only reason for 7 at this time would be future speaker addition but that might be some time. After consideration, believe it might be better for now to connect only the ones I am using.


Your setup is what I was seriously considering, but the really vocal negative views about the UMC-200 was making me have second thoughts. It seems to do everything I would want it to.


If I may, one question about the headphone audio quality. I sometime watch movies late at night. Would I miss out on much with the output setup the way it is?


Thanks again for help.
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