"Official" Emotiva UMC-200 Thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 494 Old 07-09-2014, 09:08 AM
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Single balanced output from my Marantz (UMC-200 coming this Friday- I can't imagine the output would be much different between the two with all processing and crossovers turned off) to the Xilica xp2040 and then the 4 balanced outs from the Xilica to each sub. Individual delays set on each (this was set by using a sine measurement on each sub individually and the center speaker until I got the most reinforcement in the crossover range, i.e. highest output around 80hz. (not sure if this is the correct way to know if the delay is set properly or not).

FYI the subs are "built in" to the room now and cannot be moved.


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post #362 of 494 Old 07-09-2014, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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^
The XP2040 doesn't seem to be particularly useful for sub EQ as the filters don't seem to allow for high Q settings.
Do you have a drawing that shows the location of the subs?

Markus

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post #363 of 494 Old 07-09-2014, 09:15 AM
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Hmm.. well it was recommended to me for this application by Mark Seaton and Nyal Mellor (who sold it to me). If it's lacking in function that is disappointing.


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post #364 of 494 Old 07-09-2014, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Depends solely on how your room measures.
How have you set up the XP2040 (level, delay, etc.)?

Markus

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post #365 of 494 Old 07-09-2014, 09:47 AM
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Right now very little setup. Just delays set really. I toyed with a single filter to reduce a peak.


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post #366 of 494 Old 07-09-2014, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
The XP2040 doesn't seem to be particularly useful for sub EQ as the filters don't seem to allow for high Q settings.
Do you have a drawing that shows the location of the subs?
According to the XP manual on page 13, "bandwidth" of parametric EQ can be as low as 0.02 octaves. They give the example that BW = 0.33 octaves gives Q = 4.36. It looks like they are doing this translation based on the formula for bandpass filters (derived here), even though "bandwidth" has no meaning for a PEQ when the boost or cut is less than 3 dB. Using the formula at the middle of that page, last equation above Table 1, BW = 0.33 octaves translates to Q = 4.36 per the XP manual. When I plug in 0.02 octaves into the formula, I get a maximum Q of 72.1, which is very high. Formula is below.

Q = sqrt(2^num_octaves) / (2^(num_octaves) - 1)

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post #367 of 494 Old 07-09-2014, 10:21 AM
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Here is my sub layout
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post #368 of 494 Old 07-09-2014, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
According to the XP manual on page 13, "bandwidth" of parametric EQ can be as low as 0.02 octaves. They give the example that BW = 0.33 octaves gives Q = 4.36. It looks like they are doing this translation based on the formula for bandpass filters (derived here), even though "bandwidth" has no meaning for a PEQ when the boost or cut is less than 3 dB. Using the formula at the middle of that page, last equation above Table 1, BW = 0.33 octaves translates to Q = 4.36 per the XP manual. When I plug in 0.02 octaves into the formula, I get a maximum Q of 72.1, which is very high. Formula is below.

Q = sqrt(2^num_octaves) / (2^(num_octaves) - 1)
I was looking at the XP2040 filters in REW and it didn't give me that resolution. Guess I just found a REW bug. Trying to reproduce it failed so far though.

Markus

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post #369 of 494 Old 07-09-2014, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post
Right now very little setup. Just delays set really. I toyed with a single filter to reduce a peak.
What are the delay settings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post
Here is my sub layout
All on the floor?

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post #370 of 494 Old 07-09-2014, 11:43 AM
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The front sub is on the floor sideways. The right side sub is vertical and sits on a platform that is probably 2 feet high. The rear sub is sideways but even with the floor of the riser, so its actually 12" or so off the floor level. The left side sub is like the right, on a 24" platform vertically oriented.

Here are the delays in the image. They dont make a lot of sense to me, but these are the numbers that reinforced the crossover frequency the most. Sub one is the farthest from the MLP and gets zero delay since that was set in the processor at 16.4 feet (If I recall correctly). I had thought all the other subs would simply end up getting a delay equivalent to how much closer to the MLP they were than sub 1. But the delays didnt work out like that. They are much longer than the difference in their distances would suggest. I am sure its likely I am doing something wrong.
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post #371 of 494 Old 07-09-2014, 11:48 AM
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I dont have the measurements you asked for but I do have one file on this computer from my previous measurement session. How do I upload an MDat file on here? Its not a valid file type according to the uploaded.


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post #372 of 494 Old 07-09-2014, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I dont have the measurements you asked for but I do have one file on this computer from my previous measurement session. How do I upload an MDat file on here? Its not a valid file type according to the uploaded.
Use Dropbox, WeTransfer or similar to share larger files.

Markus

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post #373 of 494 Old 07-09-2014, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Use Dropbox, WeTransfer or similar to share larger files.
Can also .zip the MDAT file if it fits the meager 98kB limit.

Roger

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post #374 of 494 Old 07-09-2014, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Can also .zip the MDAT file if it fits the meager 98kB limit.
.mdat files tend to be several megabytes.

Markus

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post #375 of 494 Old 07-10-2014, 10:04 AM
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Hey Markus my UMC came in early today so I am messing with setting it up. Never had a processor that allowed a 12db or 24db choice on the main crossover before.. thats cool.

You mentioned that "enhanced bass" is set to on by default. How do I turn that off? Moving the cursor over to that area only seems to let me change where to set the subwoofer crossover (default to 80hz). I dont seem to be able to make the cursor to to the on/off selection for enhanced bass.


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post #376 of 494 Old 07-10-2014, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Switch fronts to large, then change the enhanced bass setting.

Markus

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post #377 of 494 Old 07-10-2014, 10:09 AM
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Ah nevermind.. duh... I have no speakers set to large, so its irrelevant. I wasn't thinking clearly on what it did.

You replied too quickly. I had broken out the manual to see what was going on and it hit me.


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post #378 of 494 Old 07-10-2014, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Better set it to "off" anyway.

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post #379 of 494 Old 07-10-2014, 10:20 AM
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So far so good on setup. I just copied over my distance settings from my speakers from the Marantz to avoid having to run EmoQ or do anything else manually. Sound quality is on par with the Marantz.

I will get some measurements today and then get suggestions for what to input to the PEQ.

Only differences seem to be that some sort of electrical interference or hum is present, probably because of the RCA to XLR adapters I am having to use for my mains. Oddly this seems to only manifest itself when the unit is switched completely off on the back. Bad fairly high frequency noise is present from the speakers until I turn the unit on. Obviously I won't be turning it completely off, so this should be a non issue.

A slightly lesser noise seems to be intermittently present when a menu is on, but not all the time. That will be harder to diagnose. But neither is present with the unit just operating normally. This last one also goes away when my lights in the room (controlled by RadioRa2) are turned off.

This all may be due to the fact that my Marantz is not grounded and the UMC uses a grounded plug. Perhaps the Marantz was immune for that reason, or the balanced connections were helping. Or both.

In any case, when watching a movie, all is fine.


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post #380 of 494 Old 07-10-2014, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
Better set it to "off" anyway.
Yeah just did. Thanks again!


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post #381 of 494 Old 07-10-2014, 11:53 AM
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Well I cant get my pc to recognize the UMC200 for output. The Marantz worked just fine, giving me 8 channel output that I could select in REW. But the UMC doesnt give me an item to select in the Windows sound area to make it default. The HDMI handshake occurs, as my laptop screen blanks when i turn on or off the UMC, disconnect the HDMI, etc, but no joy.


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post #382 of 494 Old 07-10-2014, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I wouldn't bother with PC HDMI issues. It's a massive waste of time without a good chance of ever resolving the problem.
My recommendation still is "Official" Emotiva UMC-200 Thread

Markus

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post #383 of 494 Old 07-10-2014, 12:09 PM
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Yeah thanks... I just invested in this USB mic though.. would like to exhaust the possibilities. Also I had no issue at all with this HDMI output and the Marantz. I have been doing HDMI htpcs for a long time so I ain't scared of a little HDMI troubleshooting.

I am thinking the issue is on the UMC end.

Alternatively, Dan said that the XMC -1 is now starting to ship and people will be getting emails this week. So this may go back anyway.


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post #384 of 494 Old 07-10-2014, 01:29 PM
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RESOLVED! The laptop did not like the projector being plugged into the HDMI output. As soon as I removed the projector's HDMI connection from the UMC HDMI output, the laptop recognized the sound output for all 8 channels. This did not matter when connected to the Marantz.


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post #385 of 494 Old 07-10-2014, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I was looking at the XP2040 filters in REW and it didn't give me that resolution. Guess I just found a REW bug. Trying to reproduce it failed so far though.
Just heard back from John (REW author). He says that REW "seems to struggle with the XP2040's freq and gain steps". He suggests "using the Generic setting for the match then changing the setting to XP2040 when it is done".

So everyone with a XP2040 check your settings if REW delivers low Q settings at subwoofer frequencies. Normally REW uses the unsmoothed response below 200Hz. Above 200Hz it matches the smoothing set under "graph controls".

Markus

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post #386 of 494 Old 07-10-2014, 02:29 PM
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Cool thanks for tracking that down Markus.


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post #387 of 494 Old 07-10-2014, 04:00 PM
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Hi Markus,

I'd like to know more about this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Normally REW uses the unsmoothed response below 200Hz. Above 200Hz it matches the smoothing set under "graph controls".
Are you saying that if the user changes the smoothing on the graph, the filters that REW creates (>200 Hz) will adjust accordingly? That's pretty cool.

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post #388 of 494 Old 07-11-2014, 12:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Hi Markus,

I'd like to know more about this: Are you saying that if the user changes the smoothing on the graph, the filters that REW creates (>200 Hz) will adjust accordingly? That's pretty cool.
Yes. Here's an example with 1/3 smoothing and 1/48 smoothing:





The filter curve below 200Hz is the same (matches the unsmoothed response) whereas the filters above 200Hz try to match the smoothed response. With 1/48 smoothing REW runs out of available filters and therefore doesn't correct the whole response curve.
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post #389 of 494 Old 07-11-2014, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Yes. Here's an example with 1/3 smoothing and 1/48 smoothing:

The filter curve below 200Hz is the same (matches the unsmoothed response) whereas the filters above 200Hz try to match the smoothed response. With 1/48 smoothing REW runs out of available filters and therefore doesn't correct the whole response curve.
Thanks for that. I've made gobs of measurements but never once had it create the filters. I've got to dive in there!

Roger

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post #390 of 494 Old 07-11-2014, 12:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, it's a pretty handy tool. I use it all the time to match in-room slopes from sub to satellites and for general room correction.

Markus

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