"Official" Emotiva UMC-200 Thread - Page 24 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #691 of 710 Old 02-08-2015, 01:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by neo_2009 View Post
Are you referring to the subwoofer slope only, or does this bug applies to all speaker slopes?
You can't set the subwoofer filter slope independently from other speaker filter slopes.

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post #692 of 710 Old 02-08-2015, 06:40 AM
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Sorry for not being clear.
I was referring to the slope configuration setup :

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post #693 of 710 Old 02-08-2015, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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^
"SubWoofer Slop" is just the slope for the LFE low pass filter. Emotiva thinks calling it "SubWoofer Slop" would be less confusing for the user...

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post #694 of 710 Old 02-14-2015, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Pretty severe new bug discovered:
For now only use 24dB slopes in bass management, not 12dB.
Hi Markus,
Could you help me understand what is being shown? How do you create a single plot for L+SW if they come out of 2 different outputs?

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post #695 of 710 Old 02-14-2015, 03:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Hi Markus,
Could you help me understand what is being shown? How do you create a single plot for L+SW if they come out of 2 different outputs?
Hi Roger,

You could simply use a Y-cable or create the complex sum of both responses in REW if a loopback measurement was used.


By the way, I heard back from Emotiva's "Technical Guru" and of course the answer is "it's a feature, not a bug".

They don't have control over the DSP code. They simply use "pre-programmed routines in the DSP".

They obviously don't use a 12dB filter code that sums to a flat response. On the other hand for 24dB slopes they do. I asked them why they don't use Linkwitz-Riley for 12dB as well. I'm waiting for their response.

The 12dB setting seems to use a Butterworth filter that creates a deep notch at the crossover frequency. One would need to reverse polarity of the sub to get rid of it. The result would be a 3dB peak though:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linkwitz–Riley_filter

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post #696 of 710 Old 02-14-2015, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
... of course the answer is "it's a feature, not a bug".
But of course...
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post #697 of 710 Old 02-14-2015, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
You could simply use a Y-cable or create the complex sum
Ok, so they are electrically summed.

Quote:
They obviously don't use a 12dB filter code that sums to a flat response. On the other hand for 24dB slopes they do. I asked them why they don't use Linkwitz-Riley for 12dB as well. I'm waiting for their response.
I think this is pretty typical of the DSP crossovers out there. The symmetrical 24/24 dB slopes are LR and sum to flat, but the 12/24 do not. Acoustically, it seems to work fine either way, though I have to say I use the 24/24 setting (in my SSP-800) just to minimize overlap.

Quote:
The 12dB setting seems to use a Butterworth filter
Yes, it is just one of the 2 cascaded Butterworth sections being used for the 12 dB mode, and two are used for the 24 dB LR mode.

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post #698 of 710 Old 02-14-2015, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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^
The UMC-200 does 12/12 or 24/24, not the typical 12/24. I never really understood the reason for 12/24. Like you've said, important is the acoustical summing. I'd think starting with filters that sum electronically flat would be a better idea.

Anyway, such fundamental issues should be explained in the manual as they don't seem to be common knowledge (anymore?). Even most speaker setup routines don't address this properly. AVR makers seem to ignore it, so do room correction systems (although they know better, e.g. see various Audyssey papers from +10 years ago).

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post #699 of 710 Old 02-14-2015, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
The UMC-200 does 12/12 or 24/24, not the typical 12/24.
Maybe it was changed? I made some plots about 2 years ago, and from what I found the subwoofer's crossover LPF does not change slope -- it is 24 dB regardless. As distinguished from the LFE LPF which does change slope when the mis-named Sub Filter is changed.

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I never really understood the reason for 12/24. Like you've said, important is the acoustical summing. I'd think starting with filters that sum electronically flat would be a better idea.
I think the reason for the 12 dB HP slope is to reduce the passband phase shift in the more "critical" main speaker, while still having 24 dB for the subwoofer for better imaging.
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post #700 of 710 Old 02-15-2015, 02:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Maybe it was changed? I made some plots about 2 years ago, and from what I found the subwoofer's crossover LPF does not change slope -- it is 24 dB regardless. As distinguished from the LFE LPF which does change slope when the mis-named Sub Filter is changed.
It was definitely changed:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I think the reason for the 12 dB HP slope is to reduce the passband phase shift in the more "critical" main speaker, while still having 24 dB for the subwoofer for better imaging.
Minimizing group delay is certainly important but more important is how subs and satellites acoustically sum. It baffles me that no one has come up with a proper automated solution for this. Maybe the whole idea of bass management is still too new
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post #701 of 710 Old 02-16-2015, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
You can't set the subwoofer filter slope independently from other speaker filter slopes.
Unless I have completely missed something, I'm not sure how else you can change the subwoofer slope. Are the Front, Center, Rears slope in menu supposed to be set at 24? What am I missing?
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post #702 of 710 Old 02-17-2015, 12:02 AM - Thread Starter
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^
When you set "Front slope" for example, you're setting the slope for the high pass filters of the front outputs AND the slope for the low pass filter to the summed subwoofer channel.

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post #703 of 710 Old 02-17-2015, 12:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal769 View Post
Let us know IF they reply, LOL
They did:
"I asked our engineering department, and they told me that the 24 dB/octave was the preferred filter slope, and that the phase flip in the 12 dB/octave filter was a consequence of the type of 12 dB/octave filter offered by the DSP (they also told me that the number of different options offered by modern DSP processors are limited to the few that the DSP vendor - TI -expects to be used.) They suggested that, if you really want to use that filter, you should invert the phase on the sub itself."

So now we know that
- 24 dB/octave is the "preferred" filter slope
- sub polarity needs to be reversed when the 12 dB/octave filter setting is used

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post #704 of 710 Old 02-17-2015, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
"... you should invert the phase on the sub itself."
Have you measured with REW using that suggestion yet?[/quote]Considering the UMC's distance settings are not very precise, I'd bet you'll at least have to play around more with moving/positioning the SW.
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post #705 of 710 Old 02-17-2015, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
They did:
"I asked our engineering department, and they told me that the 24 dB/octave was the preferred filter slope, and that the phase flip in the 12 dB/octave filter was a consequence of the type of 12 dB/octave filter offered by the DSP (they also told me that the number of different options offered by modern DSP processors are limited to the few that the DSP vendor - TI -expects to be used.) They suggested that, if you really want to use that filter, you should invert the phase on the sub itself."

So now we know that
- 24 dB/octave is the "preferred" filter slope
- sub polarity needs to be reversed when the 12 dB/octave filter setting is used
So the Front, Center, Rear Slopes should default to 24 not the 12 as it is now and the 24 slope is the "Preferred" slope and the menu screen should be set up across the board at 24.
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post #706 of 710 Old 02-17-2015, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes but you would need to measure if 12dB (with sub polarity reversed or not) might give better results.

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post #707 of 710 Old 02-17-2015, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
Yes but you would need to measure if 12dB (with sub polarity reversed or not) might give better results.
I'm concerned about the LFE channel on either Blu-ray, DVD, Multi-Channel music etc and reversing polarity because that might solve the problem with the summed signal coming the other channels but the LFE channel isn't being touched.

It also occurs to me that shouldn't this have been discovered before now by those using REW. I suppose if you are just using Emoq you should re-run with the revised 24 slopes.
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post #708 of 710 Old 02-17-2015, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm concerned about the LFE channel on either Blu-ray, DVD, Multi-Channel music etc and reversing polarity because that might solve the problem with the summed signal coming the other channels but the LFE channel isn't being touched.
Everything gets summed to the subwoofer channel, L, R, C, Surrounds and LFE alike. So I don't follow what your concern is.

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Originally Posted by J__Chris View Post
It also occurs to me that shouldn't this have been discovered before now by those using REW.
It should but it hasn't.

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Originally Posted by J__Chris View Post
I suppose if you are just using Emoq you should re-run with the revised 24 slopes.
I guess if you're using EMO-Q then it really doesn't matter Get proper measuring gear and set up the unit yourself. Or if you want an automated solution get a miniDSP DDRC-88A.

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post #709 of 710 Unread Today, 12:30 PM
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firmware update looping

Just tried to update firmware and it has fallen in to a "Loading loop" Any ideas how to fix/proceed?

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Originally Posted by Repdetect View Post
Just tried to update firmware and it has fallen in to a "Loading loop" Any ideas how to fix/proceed?
Figured it out.

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