"Official" Emotiva UMC-200 Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 417 Old 03-15-2014, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

^
Quite honestly I don't think any game does encode audio to DD first before sending it to the output. It would require additional processing power and produce an audio delay. Native format for any game should be PCM. DD is inferior to PCM.

The sound ends up being Dolby Digital either way, so it seems like the latency would be the same whether the PS3 is doing it or the UMC-200.

One place where we do see latency big-time is when my son plays Rocksmith (a game where you use a real guitar as input). With that, you really feel the latency because you play a chord or note and there is a tiny delay between strumming the string and the song coming out. Rocksmith recommends connecting the PS3 audio via the analog left/right (red/white) RCA jacks. We tried doing that through analog inputs on the UMC-200 and the latency seems to be about the same as when using HDMI for audio. I think the UMC-200 is still doing processing that introduces the latency. I haven't played around with that enough. Maybe setting to direct will bypass all internal delays.
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post #182 of 417 Old 03-16-2014, 03:16 AM - Thread Starter
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^
http://www.avsforum.com/t/733172/ps3s-audio#post_8599769 and following posts might help.
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post #183 of 417 Old 03-16-2014, 08:39 AM
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Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't feel like there is a "automatic" mode on the UMC-200.
I don't either. And I agree that 'last used' can be quite an annoyance. I read about the 'automatic' thing over on the Emotiva site from one of the techs who seemed to be knowledgeable about the engineering. Seems to me though that you have to set your preference for each mode manually.
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post #184 of 417 Old 03-16-2014, 09:59 AM
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I don't either. And I agree that 'last used' can be quite an annoyance. I read about the 'automatic' thing over on the Emotiva site from one of the techs who seemed to be knowledgeable about the engineering. Seems to me though that you have to set your preference for each mode manually.

I think what he was saying is that if you have it set to TrueHD, and the TrueHD program has only 5.1 content, then the UMC-200 will indicate DPL processing (which looks really wrong), but what it is actually doing is putting TrueHD out to the 5.1 channels and synthesizing the back channel with DPL.

I agree, much on the Emotiva is really confusing. It's a great processor for the price, but they create a lot of issues with some design issues and poor documentation.
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post #185 of 417 Old 03-16-2014, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by oatmeal769 View Post

I don't either. And I agree that 'last used' can be quite an annoyance. I read about the 'automatic' thing over on the Emotiva site from one of the techs who seemed to be knowledgeable about the engineering. Seems to me though that you have to set your preference for each mode manually.

I used a umc200 before my pt7030 oatmeal and I just took 'last used ' as exactly the same option as my last integra ; pretty darn useless cool.gif Sometimes new firmware can do away with a ' feature ' so sounds like the auto pl2x was quietly removed in a later iteration ? If it ever turns up again heaven forbid I spose you can set 'no' for the back surrounds for the 5.1 disc majority if you prefer straight discrete smile.gif
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Aside from that, I just updated to the latest firmware. Maybe it's just my imagination, but I feel like the surround separation/isolation is markedly improved.

Not the 1st time I recently read about better sound coming from a firmware upgrade - latest denon 4520 / marantz umbrella one .
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post #186 of 417 Old 03-16-2014, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

^
http://www.avsforum.com/t/733172/ps3s-audio#post_8599769 and following posts might help.

Ok, I think I finally get this. I had been thinking of Dolby Digital as a content mode, but with the thread above I now understand that it is really more accurate to think of it in terms as a compression type. On a DVD, storing it in Dolby Digital (compression) makes sense to save disc space. In a game, where the sounds are synthesized on the fly and not stored, it makes no sense to compress to Dolby Digital so outputting in PCM is better. Do I have this right?

It would be really helpful to see a diagram of the processing flow/terminology because I feel like I'm still only partially understanding the what bitstream and PCM really mean.
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post #187 of 417 Old 03-16-2014, 01:10 PM
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... sounds like the auto pl2x was quietly removed in a later iteration ?
That's a good theory, because nothing about it seems 'automatic' to me. Until I manually set all the modes, I was likely listening to a lot of content in 'last used' mode.
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I spose you can set 'no' for the back surrounds for the 5.1 disc majority if you prefer straight discrete smile.gif
I like the PLIIx upmixing, and as I understand it, the original 5.1 is played exactly, the only thing synthesized is the rear two channels - from the side speakers, so I'm fine with it.
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Not the 1st time I recently read about better sound coming from a firmware upgrade - latest denon 4520 / marantz umbrella one .
I have no way of saying for sure, but I believe I hear a definite improvement in separation and 'discrete-ness'
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post #188 of 417 Old 03-16-2014, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pjp View Post

Ok, I think I finally get this. I had been thinking of Dolby Digital as a content mode, but with the thread above I now understand that it is really more accurate to think of it in terms as a compression type. On a DVD, storing it in Dolby Digital (compression) makes sense to save disc space. In a game, where the sounds are synthesized on the fly and not stored, it makes no sense to compress to Dolby Digital so outputting in PCM is better. Do I have this right?

You do.
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It would be really helpful to see a diagram of the processing flow/terminology because I feel like I'm still only partially understanding the what bitstream and PCM really mean.

PCM is the raw analog audio after it has been digitized. Dolby Digital is an encoder that compresses PCM. That process is lossy, meaning that audio information is lost (there are other compression algorithms that are lossless like FLAC or ALAC). The resulting Dolby Digital bitstream needs to be decoded to PCM again before it can be converted from digital to analog.

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post #189 of 417 Old 03-19-2014, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Here's an updated signal flow diagram showing how the UMC-200 handles "Direct" and "All Stereo" with different input signals:


A big thanks for this diagram as the documentation provided with the UMC 200 is less than helpful. I enjoy my 200 as it's made my theater sound the best it ever has but why on Earth did Emotiva use "all stereo" when using a multi channel pcm input? I was so confused trying to make sense of it all so again thanks for the diagram, I've printed it and keep a copy in the manual.

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post #190 of 417 Old 03-19-2014, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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^
You're welcome.

The routing highlighted in grey is ok but the routing highlighted in yellow needs to be changed.
I ask Emotiva from time to time when this is going to happen but they either don't know or don't want to change things because "everything works as designed".

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post #191 of 417 Old 03-19-2014, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

^
You're welcome.

The routing highlighted in grey is ok but the routing highlighted in yellow needs to be changed.
I ask Emotiva from time to time when this is going to happen but they either don't know or don't want to change things because "everything works as designed".

Do some of the "separated at birth" twins like the NuForce pre-pro have the same interesting routing choices?

I'm going with the new Emo 8100 and it will be interesting to see what if any differences exist (other than the obvious addition of amps).


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post #192 of 417 Old 03-19-2014, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

^
You're welcome.

The routing highlighted in grey is ok but the routing highlighted in yellow needs to be changed.
I ask Emotiva from time to time when this is going to happen but they either don't know or don't want to change things because "everything works as designed".

So the yellow parts concerning direct mode for 2 channel pcm and multi channel pcm would theoretically be changed so they do not include lpf/bass mangagement/delay? As to make them more "direct?" Even if they don't update it which it looks like they won't at least I know what the unit is doing so I can adjust accordingly.

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post #193 of 417 Old 03-24-2014, 05:28 AM
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REW V5.01 beta 18 is available : http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/47461-v5-10-beta-release-asio-support-47.html#post691230

- Added support for Emotiva UMC-200 PEQ filters
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post #194 of 417 Old 03-24-2014, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by neo_2009 View Post

REW V5.01 beta 18 is available : http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/47461-v5-10-beta-release-asio-support-47.html#post691230

- Added support for Emotiva UMC-200 PEQ filters
That sounds interesting. Does that mean REW will take it's measured results and tell you what it things you should do with he PEQ in the Emotiva?


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post #195 of 417 Old 03-24-2014, 07:31 AM
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It will generate the PEQ filters using the exact frequencies, gain and Q values available on the UMC200.
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post #196 of 417 Old 03-24-2014, 07:35 AM
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That's cool.

But isn't that what the auto set up routine on the umc would do anyway? (I'm expressing my ignorance, more than attacking the concept.)


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post #197 of 417 Old 03-24-2014, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

That's cool.

But isn't that what the auto set up routine on the umc would do anyway? (I'm expressing my ignorance, more than attacking the concept.)

We don't know. Anybody every measured what EmoQ is doing? Not that I know of. All we know is that EmoQ uses only a single mic position which doesn't seem to be the best approach. Most other room correction approaches use multiple mic locations.

Manual PEQ and REW allows you full control over the process.

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post #198 of 417 Old 03-24-2014, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by neo_2009 View Post

REW V5.01 beta 18 is available : http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/47461-v5-10-beta-release-asio-support-47.html#post691230

- Added support for Emotiva UMC-200 PEQ filters

This is very cool and the timing is perfect. I literally started loading REW and setting up the hardware (RS meter, Velodyne/Berringer mic, Apogee Duet) last night. I loaded 5.0 rather than the Beta, so I need to reload Beta. I haven't used REW before. Am I correct in assuming that it's best to use the "direct" RCA inputs for the sound signal and choose "all stereo" for processing so that it goes through the processing and EQ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

That's cool.

But isn't that what the auto set up routine on the umc would do anyway? (I'm expressing my ignorance, more than attacking the concept.)

The Emotiva auto-setup is pretty far off based upon virtually all reviews and based upon my own setup experience. It seems to be really far off on bass setup - not recognizing the bass in the main speakers. My system has Def Techs with built-in 12-inch powered subs, and auto-setup configured it as small with a crossover around 200 Hz. That being said, I really like the sound with Emo-Q enabled versus flat, so even if it isn't accurate, the EQ seems to help a lot in my room. I'm really excited to see what REW will do based upon the improvement from Emo-Q.

They recommend in the Emotiva auto-setup to turn off all crossovers on the subs because the processor will be controlling all bass so it doesn't make sense to to have the sub crossover active. If you have large main channels, my gut feeling is that auto-setup would work better if you set the sub crossover to cut off around 100hz than leaving it crossover off. It seems like Emo-Q bases it's decision on how high the sub can go rather than how low the mains can go.
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post #199 of 417 Old 03-24-2014, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Am I correct in assuming that it's best to use the "direct" RCA inputs for the sound signal and choose "all stereo" for processing so that it goes through the processing and EQ?

No, "all stereo" splits an input signal to multiple speakers. Best configuration depends on what you want to measure.

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post #200 of 417 Old 03-24-2014, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

No, "all stereo" splits an input signal to multiple speakers. Best configuration depends on what you want to measure.

Well, I think the way REW works is that it allow you to output a signal to one speaker at a time (left, center, front, sub, ...) and then you can measure and tweak the EQ one channel at a time. The output from REW is a single channel from REW via audio interface on a PC or Mac driving a male RCA that can be plugged into the Emotiva. I think what I need to be able to direct the REW signal to each of the channels, one at a time, and I need for it to go through all EQ processing on the Emotiva so I can evaluate settings. Bear in mind i haven't used REW yet, just getting ready to with equipment setup and reading their getting started guide, so I might be off on my impression of how it works.
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post #201 of 417 Old 03-24-2014, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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^
Here's help:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs
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post #202 of 417 Old 03-24-2014, 10:16 AM
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Please look at my learning curve using REW : http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/34563/umc-200-calibration-rew
You will have to read all the posts, because some post aren't correct as i've made several mistakes that were later corrected by markus.

Nevertheless, it will provide you a good starting point and you can avoid the mistakes i've made smile.gif
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post #203 of 417 Old 03-24-2014, 06:52 PM
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Question folks....  I am a HT newb - I mainly work in commercial audio.  I am considering the UMC200 for a gymnatorium setup.  will use the long walls for setup, but the speakers will be about 60' apart, and the back speakers probably 75' from the front row.  I have seen comments early in the thread that the max speaker distance is 32'.  As far as you know, is that still the case?  The cost difference between home and commercial units is huge - probably due to the processor power required for longer delays.  MY client does not have the $$$ for the commercial variety (costs as much as the whole sound system).  This unit will replace the video switcher.  If we can get this gym set up, it will be great for movie night at the church!

 

Thanks for your help.

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post #204 of 417 Old 03-24-2014, 11:43 PM - Thread Starter
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^
Max. speaker distance setting is 32.8 ft.

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post #205 of 417 Old 03-25-2014, 06:13 AM
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Thanks Markus

Quote:
Originally Posted by neo_2009 View Post

Please look at my learning curve using REW : http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/34563/umc-200-calibration-rew
You will have to read all the posts, because some post aren't correct as i've made several mistakes that were later corrected by markus.

Nevertheless, it will provide you a good starting point and you can avoid the mistakes i've made smile.gif

Thanks Neo, this should help a lot (though I'll probably come up with a whole new set of mistakes smile.gif).
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post #206 of 417 Old 03-25-2014, 06:23 AM
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Thanks Markus!

I will integrate the Extron SSP 7.1

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post #207 of 417 Old 03-25-2014, 06:57 AM
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... though I'll probably come up with a whole new set of mistakes ...

My mistakes were due to two reasons :

1 - I was using an SPL meter with an external Soundcard

Fortunately, this process is largely simplified when using a calibrated mic like the umik-1;

2 - When measuring each speaker in isolation, i maintained all the connections in the power-amp
To avoid connecting and disconnecting the RCA inputs of the power amp, i found its easier to disconnect all the speaker connections on the power amp, and insert the output of the speaker you want to measure in the speaker input of the left speaker in the power amp. I also bought banana plugs to connect the speaker wire to the power amp, as it helps the connecting and disconnecting process.
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post #208 of 417 Old 03-25-2014, 07:41 AM
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If you're in commercial audio, and have access to a multi-channel delay unit, you could insert it between the UMC-200 and the amp...
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post #209 of 417 Old 03-25-2014, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectroChris View Post

Question folks....  I am a HT newb - I mainly work in commercial audio.  I am considering the UMC200 for a gymnatorium setup.  will use the long walls for setup, but the speakers will be about 60' apart, and the back speakers probably 75' from the front row.  I have seen comments early in the thread that the max speaker distance is 32'.  As far as you know, is that still the case?  The cost difference between home and commercial units is huge - probably due to the processor power required for longer delays.  MY client does not have the $$$ for the commercial variety (costs as much as the whole sound system).  This unit will replace the video switcher.  If we can get this gym set up, it will be great for movie night at the church!

Thanks for your help.

With 32' of adjustment, remember it's relative distance. So if one speaker is at 40' and the other at 60' you are fine. Just make sure the difference between them is captured by saying the first is at zero feet and the second at 20'.


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post #210 of 417 Old 03-25-2014, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neo_2009 View Post

My mistakes were due to two reasons :

1 - I was using an SPL meter with an external Soundcard

Fortunately, this process is largely simplified when using a calibrated mic like the umik-1;

2 - When measuring each speaker in isolation, i maintained all the connections in the power-amp
To avoid connecting and disconnecting the RCA inputs of the power amp, i found its easier to disconnect all the speaker connections on the power amp, and insert the output of the speaker you want to measure in the speaker input of the left speaker in the power amp. I also bought banana plugs to connect the speaker wire to the power amp, as it helps the connecting and disconnecting process.


Thanks. I just went through the Emotiva Lounge thread and also a bit of the references sited in that thread and I am simultaneously amazed by and intimidated by the information. Thank you for starting that thread Neo and thank you Markus for answering everyone's questions with such amazing detail.

At the end of that thread, they talk about using HDMI output to be able to generate all channels out of REW without moving cables around. This sounds great -- does anybody know if this works? I will be using a Macbook Pro and have an Apple "mini DisplayPort to HDMI" converter on order -- will this work to output REW signals to all channels through HDMI into the UMC-200?

For mics, I have the RS sound level meter and a Velodyne SMS-1 mic (which is a rebranded Behringer ECM8000 mic). I take it from that thread that I will mostly be using the Behringer mic, but it sounds like from the REW documentation that the RS meter is also used to set up the mic.
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