Inexpensive 4 ohm stable receiver with Audyssey XT32? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 09-19-2013, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I just helped a friend order a full 5.1 JTR speaker setup (Noesis 228 LCRs, Slanted 8 surrounds and a S2). I pushed him to go way over his budget and he still need to buy a receiver smile.gif

I am aware of Onkyo 818, which seems like a decent receiver available for $650 refurbished or $800 new but wondering if there are any other inexpensive (but good quality) receivers that are officially rated for 4 Ohm speakers and has Audyssey XT32?

Thanks for your help!
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post #2 of 19 Old 09-19-2013, 02:25 PM
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The next lowest priced models with XT32 would be the new Denon X4000 or the Onkyo 929.

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post #3 of 19 Old 09-19-2013, 02:36 PM
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Back when I ran JTR's, I tried them on a Denon 4311. The 4311 is rated for 4 ohm speakers. I have a treated room and listen close to reference. The JTR's shut my Denon down, so my recommendation would be to get an AVR that has the features you want, plus preouts so that you can use an amp. So I would skip looking for an AVR with 4 ohm capability and go with something like the X4000 with an amp. With a good amp, you do not have to worry what speakers you are ever using.

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post #4 of 19 Old 09-19-2013, 02:44 PM
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Yea but these are 98db sensitivity. There is a video of the 212 Noesis playing reference off a 20 watt a channel $20 amp. Of course those are 101db sensitivity. I too would recommend he at least power the front 3 speakers and leave the AVR for powering the surrounds. That way we assure nothing is overworked. Sounds like the Onkyo is the cheapest. I would spring for the X4000 personally smile.gif
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post #5 of 19 Old 09-19-2013, 02:46 PM
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But if he listens at respectable volumes the AVR as we now will drive them
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post #6 of 19 Old 09-19-2013, 08:09 PM
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EDIT - my post below is for a preamp, which would require an amp so likely not helpful. Was talking about amps on the JTR thread and got carried away over here.

This doesn't have Audyssey XT32 but does have a Parametric EQ, which is flexible but would require you to have measuring hw/sw. I just bought it so I can't say how good it is but I was looking at it for months before the sale. Sherbourn is being closed and changed to the Emotiva Pro brand. Also, based on what I read this unit may very well make a reappearance under the Emotiva Pro brand, although probably not this cheap.

http://www.sherbourn.com/products/pt7030
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post #7 of 19 Old 09-20-2013, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Back when I ran JTR's, I tried them on a Denon 4311. The 4311 is rated for 4 ohm speakers. I have a treated room and listen close to reference. The JTR's shut my Denon down, so my recommendation would be to get an AVR that has the features you want, plus preouts so that you can use an amp. So I would skip looking for an AVR with 4 ohm capability and go with something like the X4000 with an amp. With a good amp, you do not have to worry what speakers you are ever using.

I don't get posts like this. I have a mid-priced amp (AVR 1913) that makes no special claims about driving 4 ohm loads. I have average efficiency speakers (90 dB/W) that no doubt dip down to 4 ohms just like many of their brand mates (no detailed online tests for the PC 351s seem to exist but we do know about their brandmates the P361-P363 which also have dual woofers and dip down to 3 ohms and I've run them too).

I have a fairly modest 12" sub. I can reach reference level with about 3 dB spare to go, and have done it for extended periods without any amps shutting down, overheating or whatever. If I do a technical analysis, that is how things should work, and in the real world that is how things do work. That level happens to be a lot more than I want to listen at most of the time, but I did it anyway just for grins and giggles.

If you can do it with 90 dB speakers and can't do it with 98-101 dB speakers whats wrong with this picture?
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post #8 of 19 Old 09-20-2013, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post

EDIT - my post below is for a preamp, which would require an amp so likely not helpful. Was talking about amps on the JTR thread and got carried away over here.

This doesn't have Audyssey XT32 but does have a Parametric EQ, which is flexible but would require you to have measuring hw/sw. I just bought it so I can't say how good it is but I was looking at it for months before the sale. Sherbourn is being closed and changed to the Emotiva Pro brand. Also, based on what I read this unit may very well make a reappearance under the Emotiva Pro brand, although probably not this cheap.

http://www.sherbourn.com/products/pt7030

I agree that the Sherbourn looks like the product to have if you want to do manual eq.
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post #9 of 19 Old 09-20-2013, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Back when I ran JTR's, I tried them on a Denon 4311. The 4311 is rated for 4 ohm speakers. I have a treated room and listen close to reference. The JTR's shut my Denon down, so my recommendation would be to get an AVR that has the features you want, plus preouts so that you can use an amp...
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I don't get posts like this. I have a mid-priced amp (AVR 1913) that makes no special claims about driving 4 ohm loads. I have average efficiency speakers (90 dB/W) that no doubt dip down to 4 ohms just like many of their brand mates (no detailed online tests for the PC 351s seem to exist but we do know about their brandmates the P361-P363 which also have dual woofers and dip down to 3 ohms and I've run them too).

I have a fairly modest 12" sub. I can reach reference level with about 3 dB spare to go, and have done it for extended periods without any amps shutting down, overheating or whatever. If I do a technical analysis, that is how things should work, and in the real world that is how things do work. That level happens to be a lot more than I want to listen at most of the time, but I did it anyway just for grins and giggles.

If you can do it with 90 dB speakers and can't do it with 98-101 dB speakers whats wrong with this picture?

I am curious about this as well...For the record, I found that my Klipsch Home Theater sounded bright at higher levels with a mid priced Denon AVR 3805 but was able to play it near reference levels with the Denon AVR-4802R/4806ci and now with the AVR-4311ci which I am completely happy with and watched "Top Gun" at -3 on the dial and then a couple of hours of multichannel music at -8 on the Main Volume...

That said, I convinced myself I needed an AVR that was capable of driving 4 Ohm speakers at loud levels but arnyk has me wanting to purchase/try a lower end, newer AVR just for grins to see if I can get the same results with my 9.2 Home Theater with speakers that range from 97 dB to 101 dB and crossed over to the subs at 60 to 80 Hz.
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post #10 of 19 Old 09-20-2013, 07:59 AM
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Let's not forget that amplifier impedance ratings are done at full output power. If the manufacturer wants a lower impedance rating he just needs to lower the power output rating. I don't know about you but I never get close to full output power on my receiver. I think the highest level I've ever hit is 18 watts. The speakers are 6 ohms and 88db sensitive. My subwoofer amp carries most of the load and 18 watts drives my 88db rated speakers to uncomfortably loud levels. I've never measured my bedroom system but here are some facts. The room is 12X22 feet opening up to 16 feet at one end. Big bedroom. My speakers are 4 ohm nominal and 87db sensitive there. I do have a powered sub. The receiver is a bottom-of-the-line Pioneer (VSX522 under $200.) rated at something like 80 watts per channel. I can play the system loud enough that my wife complains from downstairs without the receiver getting more than comfortably warm. It isn't even well ventilated.

I agree with Arny. Something is wrong with Sales 5's situation. It doesn't make sense. Either he plays at abusive levels or something is wrong with the equipment. I read reports of thermal shutdown but, in my experience, that is usually due to lack of ventilation rather than speaker impedance. I've never encountered it personally nor do I know anyone who has.

If you play at normal average levels - 75-85 db - in a normal listening room in a normal home, any receiver should be able to play a vast majority of the speakers available in the industry at any price. There are a lot of people around trying to sell you amplifiers and instilling fear of low impedances is their major tool.
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post #11 of 19 Old 09-20-2013, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

...I agree with Arny. Something is wrong with Sales 5's situation. It doesn't make sense. Either he plays at abusive levels or something is wrong with the equipment. I read reports of thermal shutdown but, in my experience, that is usually due to lack of ventilation rather than speaker impedance. I've never encountered it personally nor do I know anyone who has.

If you play at normal average levels - 75-85 db - in a normal listening room in a normal home, any receiver should be able to play a vast majority of the speakers available in the industry at any price. There are a lot of people around trying to sell you amplifiers and instilling fear of low impedances is their major tool.

I never had my AVRs shut down with my HT but it did become bright at louder volume and wondered if the Crest Factor had something to do with it: http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/loudspeaker-power-handling

"Most test signals start with either pink noise (equal energy per octave – an octave being a doubling or halving of frequency) or white noise (equal energy per unit hertz) and shape it with frequency selective filters so it more accurately approximates the spectral content of music. Then the crest factor (difference between the signal peak value, and RMS value) is set to a standard, usually 6 db. A 6 db crest factor means the RMS value of the power test signal is ¼ of the peak (instantaneous value) of the signal. It makes it easy for us engineers to measure the value, by letting us use a multimeter instead of a computer program and some far more expensive and complex electronics, but at the same time it does not accurately reflect the much higher dynamic range (difference between the softest and loudest sounds) of actual music. If we compare the RMS value with the peak value of the signals in real music, we find that the CREST FACTOR is often more than 20db!"
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post #12 of 19 Old 09-21-2013, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logicators View Post

I just helped a friend order a full 5.1 JTR speaker setup (Noesis 228 LCRs, Slanted 8 surrounds and a S2). I pushed him to go way over his budget and he still need to buy a receiver smile.gif

I am aware of Onkyo 818, which seems like a decent receiver available for $650 refurbished or $800 new but wondering if there are any other inexpensive (but good quality) receivers that are officially rated for 4 Ohm speakers and has Audyssey XT32?

Thanks for your help!

Logicators, if you want to be assured of 4Ω performance, all THX certified (Ultra2 or Select2) AVR's are effectively 4Ω rated. For the requisite sized room and viewing distance*, a THX certified AVR will play any program material at reference level when driving speakers of 89dBSPL/W/m sensitivity and minimum impedance of 3.2Ω (4Ω nominal). Hooked up to the JTR 228HT's, a THX certified AVR will in theory have 9dB (or x8) headroom at reference level! Unless extreme (125dB+) SPL's are being contemplated, there is simply no way that a separate power amp is needed.

Of the mainstream consumer brands, that leaves you with only Onkyo/Integra that has the XT32 + THX combo (IIRC). The Onkyo 818 is a good choice, however you should be aware that the 818's unique MultEQ XT32 implementation does not include SubEQ HT, as described in the AVS Audyssey FAQ.

In the Integra lineup, the equivalent is the DTR-50.4. I understand that even moderately discounted Integras are rare, but this is a recently superseded model, so you never know your luck.
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post #13 of 19 Old 09-21-2013, 03:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

...I agree with Arny. Something is wrong with Sales 5's situation. It doesn't make sense. Either he plays at abusive levels or something is wrong with the equipment. I read reports of thermal shutdown but, in my experience, that is usually due to lack of ventilation rather than speaker impedance. I've never encountered it personally nor do I know anyone who has.

If you play at normal average levels - 75-85 db - in a normal listening room in a normal home, any receiver should be able to play a vast majority of the speakers available in the industry at any price. There are a lot of people around trying to sell you amplifiers and instilling fear of low impedances is their major tool.

I never had my AVRs shut down with my HT but it did become bright at louder volume and wondered if the Crest Factor had something to do with it: http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/loudspeaker-power-handling

"Most test signals start with either pink noise (equal energy per octave – an octave being a doubling or halving of frequency) or white noise (equal energy per unit hertz) and shape it with frequency selective filters so it more accurately approximates the spectral content of music. Then the crest factor (difference between the signal peak value, and RMS value) is set to a standard, usually 6 db. A 6 db crest factor means the RMS value of the power test signal is ¼ of the peak (instantaneous value) of the signal. It makes it easy for us engineers to measure the value, by letting us use a multimeter instead of a computer program and some far more expensive and complex electronics, but at the same time it does not accurately reflect the much higher dynamic range (difference between the softest and loudest sounds) of actual music. If we compare the RMS value with the peak value of the signals in real music, we find that the CREST FACTOR is often more than 20db!"

The caveat relating to the above paragraph is that he is describing loudspeaker tests, not amplifier tests. AVR and power amp tests are generally done with pure sine waves or sine wave sweeps that have a crest factor of exactly 3.0 dB. That's twice the average power that is in a signal with a crest factor of 6 dB such as was mentioned in the audioholics speaker article. Average power is what drains power supplies and heats up heat sinks. 6 dB turns out to be the worst case crest factor of the absolutely positively worst case music, such as a low pedal note on a pipe organ being simply stood on indefinitely. Thats far worse than heavy metal or hip hop or SFX in movies..

So, if you want 4 ohm performance stick to playing music and listening to movies, or derate your amp from its true capabilities with music and moves when you test it with sine waves.
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post #14 of 19 Old 09-21-2013, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys, appreciate your responses. I have personally used my JTR quintuples with an AVR that's not rated for 4 ohm speakers (Marantz SR6005) at reference for extended periods without running into any issues but ended by buying a bunch of crown XLR 1500s for peace of mind. My friend is not much familiar with AVRs and amps and I made him extend his 3K budget by 3x already so would like to help him get something simple for now. As some of you already noted he should do fine as long as we get an amp with pre-outs so he could add an external amp later if needed.

He can't handle manual eq.

I will take a look at the Integra, but if we can't get one for under 1K Onkyo 818 will have to do for now.
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post #15 of 19 Old 10-16-2013, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The next lowest priced models with XT32 would be the new Denon X4000 or the Onkyo 929.

The 818 is THX Select2 certified. All THX Select amps have to be able to handle 4 ohm loads for LCRs, and 8 ohms for surrounds.
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When it comes to amplification, continuous output tests are run on up to one, four, and five channels (simultaneously) of an Ultra product, but only one at a time on Select. With all products, the dynamic amplifier tests are done on up to all available channels. Ultra amplifiers must be stable on all channels to 3.2 ohms and swing an 18A peak, while Select products must be stable into 4 ohms (front channel) and 8 ohms (surrounds), and swing peaks of 12.5A and 6.2A respectively.
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post #16 of 19 Old 10-24-2013, 08:51 PM
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I tell ya what a few years ago I owned a Pioneer Elite VSX-32 reciever that was THX Select 2. I ran low sensitivity Polks and at -10dbmv it would go into protection. It infuriated me. I put up with it for a few weeks than returned the reciever. Too bad cause I loved the way it sound. After I than got an Onkyo NR809 and I've enjoyed it now for 3 yrs. Sold the Polks.

Moral of the story just cause it's THX Select2 doesn't mean it can play reference.

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post #17 of 19 Old 10-25-2013, 04:15 AM
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If it helps my bedroom system upstairs has 4 ohm speakers and is driven by a poorly ventilated bottom-of-the-line AV receiver. My wife often asks me turn it down when she is downstairs. Personally, I haven't paid attention to speaker impedance ever in my 50 years of audiphilia and have never had a reason to.
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post #18 of 19 Old 10-25-2013, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddig View Post

I tell ya what a few years ago I owned a Pioneer Elite VSX-32 reciever that was THX Select 2. I ran low sensitivity Polks and at -10dbmv it would go into protection. It infuriated me. I put up with it for a few weeks than returned the reciever. Too bad cause I loved the way it sound. After I than got an Onkyo NR809 and I've enjoyed it now for 3 yrs. Sold the Polks.

Moral of the story just cause it's THX Select2 doesn't mean it can play reference.

Do you remember the model numbers of the "...low sensitivity Polks..."?
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post #19 of 19 Old 10-25-2013, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddig View Post

I tell ya what a few years ago I owned a Pioneer Elite VSX-32 reciever that was THX Select 2. I ran low sensitivity Polks and at -10dbmv it would go into protection. It infuriated me. I put up with it for a few weeks than returned the reciever. Too bad cause I loved the way it sound. After I than got an Onkyo NR809 and I've enjoyed it now for 3 yrs. Sold the Polks.

Moral of the story just cause it's THX Select2 doesn't mean it can play reference.

And you're certain the reason was low speaker sensitivity?
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