What receiver should I get? Replacing Pioneer VSX52 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 09-23-2013, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys. Through some unfortunate events, it looks like Im going to have to replace my receiver. I wanted to post the question here as my knowledge is fairly limited. First, what Ive got: replacing a Pioneer VSX52 Elite receiver, Emotiva 2 channel amp for the front mains (cant remember model offhand, but its 125x2), Fronts are Polk RTi10's, Polk CS10 center, Polk FXiA6 surrounds, 2 Hsu 12's, Sat receiver, and HTPC. I dont usually hit reference level volume, but usually around -15 to -8.

First and foremost audio and video quality are most important. I listen to about 70%video 30% music.

That said, Im partial to Pioneer and Yamaha products. The receivers on my short list so far are Pioneer SC75, Yamaha 2020/2030, or Yamaha 3020/3030. Its kind of overkill in a way because Im only using 5.1 and not using multiple zones, but Im looking at those receivers for the video processing chip and the DACS.

Sooooo. Based on this info (if you need more lemme know) what would you guys recommend? Budget is $1k-$2k at the very most. I'd like to stay at or below $1500.
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post #2 of 15 Old 09-23-2013, 10:01 AM
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For decades I used only high end avr's. My last Marantz was sold with my house and previous theater. Earlier this year I purchased a low end Pioneer (1022-K) and have been extremely pleased with it. So I would expect a higher end Pioneer to be the truly excellent. As I still have an extensive Laserdisc collection I use the video processor often and have found it to be extremely good. I admit, I don't do as much music on it as you will, but some for sure and it has not disappointed me in any way so far.
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post #3 of 15 Old 09-23-2013, 10:30 AM
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Are you still keeping the 2 channel Emotiva amp?

If you like the Pioneer SC receiver you had before why not get a newer model SC receiver? You're already familiar with how it works.

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post #4 of 15 Old 09-23-2013, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

Are you still keeping the 2 channel Emotiva amp?

If you like the Pioneer SC receiver you had before why not get a newer model SC receiver? You're already familiar with how it works.

Yes Im keeping the Emo (though not sure I would need it with an SC Pio receiver). I didnt have an SC before, I had a VSX52...a step down from the SC.
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post #5 of 15 Old 09-23-2013, 12:25 PM
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Oh okay, then the SC75 should be much better.

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post #6 of 15 Old 09-23-2013, 12:50 PM
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a) "high-end" AVR + external 2 ch AMP is overkill for those speakers... a decent AVR will handle them with ease
b) No such thing as difference in video quality between AVRs. HDMI is 100% digital. Either all the bits make it and you have a picture or none of them make it and you don't. No such thing as static, etc. w/ HDMI... if you were upscaling 480i/p video, then the upscaling in the AVR would make a small difference
c) AVR is going to make very little difference in audio quality in relationship to the speakers. I.e. you aren't going to hear much of a difference between various AVRs given the same exact source and same exact speakers.

You'll be just fine with the Denon X3000 or X4000.
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post #7 of 15 Old 09-23-2013, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

a) "high-end" AVR + external 2 ch AMP is overkill for those speakers... a decent AVR will handle them with ease
b) No such thing as difference in video quality between AVRs. HDMI is 100% digital. Either all the bits make it and you have a picture or none of them make it and you don't. No such thing as static, etc. w/ HDMI... if you were upscaling 480i/p video, then the upscaling in the AVR would make a small difference
c) AVR is going to make very little difference in audio quality in relationship to the speakers. I.e. you aren't going to hear much of a difference between various AVRs given the same exact source and same exact speakers.

You'll be just fine with the Denon X3000 or X4000.

Huh? So the video processor is irrelevant?
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post #8 of 15 Old 09-23-2013, 03:27 PM
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Maybe not irrelevant...... For most HDMI equipped sources you would not use it.

Is a 4K resolution display in your future? Probably relevant there.

If you use older sources it would be relevant as well. It is real nice using only HDMI to my display and letting the AVR do the scale on my laserdiscs. You just need to think of any and all reasons you may or may not actually use external video processing is all.


Nice to have just in case you ever need to use it. Many modern displays are doing away with legacy inputs.
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post #9 of 15 Old 09-23-2013, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by blackangst View Post

Huh? So the video processor is irrelevant?

Unless you are doing video up-conversion, yeah, the video processor is pretty irrelevant. Video passes straight through to your TV. Some AVRs can do a few minor things to the video if you are so inclined. If you are watching 1080i/p, there is no processing done to the video signal beyond overlaying the OSD. Slight disclaimer, if you input a 1080i signal, you *could* have the AVR de-interlace it, but you could just as easily have any device on the chain de-interlace it. De-interlacing is easy.

The video processor in your BluRay player is much more important.
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post #10 of 15 Old 09-23-2013, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

Maybe not irrelevant...... For most HDMI equipped sources you would not use it.

Is a 4K resolution display in your future? Probably relevant there.

If you use older sources it would be relevant as well. It is real nice using only HDMI to my display and letting the AVR do the scale on my laserdiscs. You just need to think of any and all reasons you may or may not actually use external video processing is all.


Nice to have just in case you ever need to use it. Many modern displays are doing away with legacy inputs.

Just so I understand this correctly. If both my satellite box and my HTPC are connected TO my receiver via HDMI, and my receiver out to my TV via HDMI, anything I play will bypass the processor? In what instances would the processor kick in?
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post #11 of 15 Old 09-23-2013, 03:47 PM
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Generally you would set both of those sources for the best resolution for your display and have no further processing involved.


Older non HD cable boxes may benefit. But I have always had best results from HD cable / sat boxes by setting the output for everything / all content to the native resolution of the display.
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post #12 of 15 Old 09-23-2013, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackangst View Post

Just so I understand this correctly. If both my satellite box and my HTPC are connected TO my receiver via HDMI, and my receiver out to my TV via HDMI, anything I play will bypass the processor? In what instances would the processor kick in?

You would only have the video processor kick in with 2 scenarios:

1) you pass your AVR 480i/p video (VHS, older DVD player, etc)
2) you have a 4K TV

Your sat box is going to put out 1080i/p and your HTPC will likely do the same thing. Is your TV 1080p or 720p?

If your TV is native 1080p, no processing would be involved. If your TV is 720p, you'd get slightly better performance letting the AVR scale down to 720p vs. the scaler in the TV.

EDIT: If your TV is native 1080p, you should set your AVR to de-interlace any 1080i signals and output 1080p for the TV. De-interlacer in your AVR is going to be better then the one in your TV, but like I said, de-interlacing is easy programming wise... not much you can do to screw it up or have errors like you can with scaling.
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post #13 of 15 Old 09-23-2013, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

You would only have the video processor kick in with 2 scenarios:

1) you pass your AVR 480i/p video (VHS, older DVD player, etc)
2) you have a 4K TV

Your sat box is going to put out 1080i/p and your HTPC will likely do the same thing. Is your TV 1080p or 720p?

If your TV is native 1080p, no processing would be involved. If your TV is 720p, you'd get slightly better performance letting the AVR scale down to 720p vs. the scaler in the TV.

EDIT: If your TV is native 1080p, you should set your AVR to de-interlace any 1080i signals and output 1080p for the TV. De-interlacer in your AVR is going to be better then the one in your TV, but like I said, de-interlacing is easy programming wise... not much you can do to screw it up or have errors like you can with scaling.

The latter is what I've done. TV is native 1080p, but due to sat box being 1080i most of the time (Directv *does* have some 1080p content) I set the AVR to upscale everything to 1080p.
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post #14 of 15 Old 09-23-2013, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by blackangst View Post

The latter is what I've done. TV is native 1080p, but due to sat box being 1080i most of the time (Directv *does* have some 1080p content) I set the AVR to upscale everything to 1080p.

1080i -> 1080p is not scaling, so no video processing is involved. 1080i -> 1080p is de-interlacing. A single 1080p frame will come in 2 frames over 1080i. One frame will have the odd lines and the other frame will have the even lines. De-interlacing is just slapping the odd and even lines together and producing a single frame. No complications. It's 1:1 essentially.

720p -> 1080p is where the complications come in. To take 720p -> 1080p, you essentially have to turn every 1 pixel row into a row 1.5 pixels high. You can't have 1/2 a pixel so there are many algorithms that decide the best way to do that. Some are better then others. Some have bugs, so if you buy a product based on that scaler, you are guaranteed to have that same bug. One common issue in the early days of 1080i/p was with the Faroudja scalers. These were VERY common, but they had a major defect in that they had trouble scaling red. It would often have lots of jagged edges and pixelation, etc.

Anyways, point is smile.gif, if you have all 1080i/p sources and you have a 1080p TV, a $100 AVR will give you the same picture quality as a $1,000 AVR. Difference will be in the audio section.

I would not worry about 4K at this point as content & devices and TVs are years away.

The Denon X3000 & X4000 that I recommended do 4K scaling, but its marketing hype at this point rather then a real feature.
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post #15 of 15 Old 09-23-2013, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

1080i -> 1080p is not scaling, so no video processing is involved. 1080i -> 1080p is de-interlacing. A single 1080p frame will come in 2 frames over 1080i. One frame will have the odd lines and the other frame will have the even lines. De-interlacing is just slapping the odd and even lines together and producing a single frame. No complications. It's 1:1 essentially.

720p -> 1080p is where the complications come in. To take 720p -> 1080p, you essentially have to turn every 1 pixel row into a row 1.5 pixels high. You can't have 1/2 a pixel so there are many algorithms that decide the best way to do that. Some are better then others. Some have bugs, so if you buy a product based on that scaler, you are guaranteed to have that same bug. One common issue in the early days of 1080i/p was with the Faroudja scalers. These were VERY common, but they had a major defect in that they had trouble scaling red. It would often have lots of jagged edges and pixelation, etc.

Anyways, point is smile.gif, if you have all 1080i/p sources and you have a 1080p TV, a $100 AVR will give you the same picture quality as a $1,000 AVR. Difference will be in the audio section.

I would not worry about 4K at this point as content & devices and TVs are years away.

The Denon X3000 & X4000 that I recommended do 4K scaling, but its marketing hype at this point rather then a real feature.

Excellent info that I knew, but forgot. Thanks Sledge. So I guess its the amp and DAC I need to look at. I'll take a look at those Denons.
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