Denon x4000 or Onkyo TXNR929 or Pre-Pro - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 69 Old 09-24-2013, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I am in the market for a new "Processor/Receiver" and looking for some advice. My current Pioneer SC25 died and need to replace it. It was a band-aid from my old B&K days. Now that the kids are older and I can "crank it up" again (not that the Pioneer was a slouch) but I am trying to maximize my old equipment with current technology.
I currently run a 5.1 set-up in a challenging room that has vaulted ceilings that opens up to the kitchen. My speaker line-up is; Sonus Faber Grand Piano front 3 (6ohm), Klipsch dipoles (8ohm), and a huge SVS pb-12 plus2 subwoofer. Using a 60"LG plasma, sony Blueray, apple tv, direct tv hd dvr, sony ps 3, and a wii. Still have a B&K AV5000 series II amp that runs 125 X 5 (and that is conservative) that should be sufficient to run my 5.1 set-up better than most on board amps at my price point. Also, if needed to power a separate zone I have an Adcom GFA 535 that should handle any of that if necessary.
My question is whether to go with a Pre-pro such as the $1699 Marantz 7701 that only has Audyssey MultiEQ XT or go for a receiver Like the Onkyo 929 or the Denon x4000 with Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 and use my B&K as the amp and the receiver for the other Zones Ibelieve that the Onkyo can power 2 zones while the Denon could do only 1 in that configuration.
I am somewhat limited to what I can get as I have $1,000 Best Buy dollars for my failing Pioneer SC25 (replacement warranty), so it would best to go through them, naturally. I have not mentioned the Pioneers or Yamaha's because I have been persuaded that the equalization by Audyssey is superior especially the XT32 version (and I need help with Bass management with this system

Thanks
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post #2 of 69 Old 09-25-2013, 03:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Bump....I could use a little feedback here...much appreciated!
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post #3 of 69 Old 09-25-2013, 05:42 AM
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I would get the x4000. Onkyo's reliability has been too spotty for me to recommend them.

I wouldn't automatically rule out Yamaha and Pioneer. Their sound correction software has improved over the years, I don't have experience with mcacc, but ypao does a good job.
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post #4 of 69 Old 09-25-2013, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Is there a major difference in the room eq ing between the XT32 and xt, because I would like to better control my SVS Sub. Pioneer Mcaac did not deliver for low frequencies with my SC25. Are the newer Pioneers equipped to do it because I can get a SC 67 for $1,000
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post #5 of 69 Old 09-25-2013, 04:21 PM
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Yes, most would agree there is a noticeable improvement in audio fidelity, not just in the bass region but center channel dialogue as well going from XT to XT32. Also note that the X4000 includes Audyssey Sub EQ HT (929 does not) which can set level/distance for dual subwoofers should you ever decide to add a 2nd sub.

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post #6 of 69 Old 09-25-2013, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Can the Denon do bluetooth ?
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post #7 of 69 Old 09-25-2013, 09:59 PM
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My 929 has Bluetooth and WiFi. It replaced an Integra pre-pro with Audyssey XT. As JD Smoothie said, I notice the improvement most in the center channel and bass. The 929 & the X4000 will handle the bass the same but while they both have two sub outs, the Denon massages theirs separately.

With the exception of Sub EQ HD, the 929 compares more favorably with the Marantz 7008. They both have 9 powered channels and 11 pre-outs Actually the Marantz has about 13 watts per channel less than the Onkyo and no Bluetooth or WiFi.Oh, and it costs $600 more. But the Marantz is a fine piece. At the time I only compared the 929 with the X4000, but I think the 7008 is more comparable. While my Integra was a great piece, I hammered Onkyo about the HDMI board problem. They ultimately convinced me and now it exceeded my expectations.

BTW, I don't even miss my 200 w/ 7ch. Outlaw amp. If I sound like a fan boy, so do some of the others.

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post #8 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 12:28 AM
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I recently went from two years with an Onkyo HT-RC370 to Denon X4000. The difference was huge for our family/living room home theater. Our movie and music experience still feels a bit magical after several weeks with the Denon. The X4000 is a lot less buggy too. X4000 also runs lukewarm compared to red hot heat output of the Onkyo.

As I mentioned in a post on the official Denon X4000 thread, I am not sure if it is the advanced Audyssey XT32 and Sub HT (I have two subs) or just a higher end model with more power that makes the Denon several orders of magnitude better for my room and equipment. It's not really fair to compare a low-mid end Onkyo with a higher end Denon model. But I can say that is was the second Onkyo over 7 or 8 years that left me underwhelmed. The long list of Onkyo features look good on paper, but I will never bite again.

I wouldn't get hung up on Bluetooth features. You can probably get higher quality and more reliable connections with the many newer WiFi connectivity options out there, including Chromecast dongle over HDMI from your Android, iPhone, tablet, or desktop with Chrome Browser. I have a dongle plugged right into a rear X4000 HDMI port 24x7.
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post #9 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moodyda View Post

Can the Denon do bluetooth ?

As peterfram notes, it would require an external dongle connection for bluetooth.

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post #10 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 03:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterfram View Post

I wouldn't get hung up on Bluetooth features. You can probably get higher quality and more reliable connections with the many newer WiFi connectivity options out there, including Chromecast dongle over HDMI from your Android, iPhone, tablet, or desktop with Chrome Browser. I have a dongle plugged right into a rear X4000 HDMI port 24x7.
I have apple TV that can handle Air play but I would like a Bluetooth option when the wife wants to listen to her android device as well.
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post #11 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 04:10 AM
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Very interesting thread for me. I too am looking at the Denon X4000 as a pre pro. I currently have an Onkyo 886 which replaced my B&K Ref50 and the sound quality is underwhelming in comparison. Still using the B&K 200.5 amp.

I am also interested in finding another pre/pro, but tired of spending the big $$ on those only to have technology change.

Onkyo SC 886
B K 200.5
Klipsh Forte Mains
Klipsh Center
ADS Surrounds
XS30
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post #12 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 04:15 AM
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Another option in this price range are the Anthem receivers. They use ARC for room correction which is fabulous IMO.
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post #13 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moodyda View Post

I have apple TV that can handle Air play but I would like a Bluetooth option when the wife wants to listen to her android device as well.

The $35 Chromecast HDMI dongle might be a better choice than a Bluetooth dongle for the Android usage. Though she would have to use the Google Play Music App to stream to the X4000 until more apps come out. There is a slight learning curve the first time you use it. Both music and 1080P video quality is awesome with method. True 1080P Play Movies or Youtube content look higher quality than Dish Network HD channels for example.
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post #14 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 10:02 AM
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If you guys already have B&K seperates, there will be no way that any receiver will EVER give you the same experience. You can use that Denon or Onkyo as a pre-pro while using that B$K receiver for your main channels. Remember that all AVRs promise high wattage but don't deliver on all 5 channels. Check out the 5 channel ratings on the AVRs at 135 or 140 are really 80-90wpc on 5 channel. That B&K on the other hand will really be more like 150 or more on a 6ohm amp like that B&K that you have. Don't know much about the Marantz but it really looks intriguing.
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post #15 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 12:05 PM
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Seems there's quite a few of us in this position: I'm considering how to replace my Arcam AV9 processor so I can have on board HD decoding, good room EQ and the extra channels beyond the 7.2 I use now. Though I'm not really interested in networking type features since I already have a smart TV, PVR and Oppo BluRay player.

I'm thinking of either the Denon X4000 or AVR4520 used as a processor/amplifier for the surround/height channels and I'll keep one of my Arcam (3 channel) power amps to power the front LCRs (MK MP150). That way I don't totally give up the extra power I have using separates and it should leave the AVR with an easier job to only run 4 x surrounds plus front heights. In the UK the 4520 is only a small amount more than the X4000, so I'm tempted to push the boat out and go for this model, but I've got the cost of the new MK speakers to cover yet...

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post #16 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Seems there's quite a few of us in this position: I'm considering how to replace my Arcam AV9 processor so I can have on board HD decoding, good room EQ and the extra channels beyond the 7.2 I use now. Though I'm not really interested in networking type features since I already have a smart TV, PVR and Oppo BluRay player.

I'm thinking of either the Denon X4000 or AVR4520 used as a processor/amplifier for the surround/height channels and I'll keep one of my Arcam (3 channel) power amps to power the front LCRs (MK MP150). That way I don't totally give up the extra power I have using separates and it should leave the AVR with an easier job to only run 4 x surrounds plus front heights. In the UK the 4520 is only a small amount more than the X4000, so I'm tempted to push the boat out and go for this model, but I've got the cost of the new MK speakers to cover yet...

The only reason to get the 4520 is if you plan to go to 11.x. Otherwise, there's not much difference between it and the 4000.
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post #17 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Seems there's quite a few of us in this position: I'm considering how to replace my Arcam AV9 processor so I can have on board HD decoding, good room EQ and the extra channels beyond the 7.2 I use now. Though I'm not really interested in networking type features since I already have a smart TV, PVR and Oppo BluRay player.

I'm thinking of either the Denon X4000 or AVR4520 used as a processor/amplifier for the surround/height channels and I'll keep one of my Arcam (3 channel) power amps to power the front LCRs (MK MP150). That way I don't totally give up the extra power I have using separates and it should leave the AVR with an easier job to only run 4 x surrounds plus front heights. In the UK the 4520 is only a small amount more than the X4000, so I'm tempted to push the boat out and go for this model, but I've got the cost of the new MK speakers to cover yet...

There's a X4000 here for $899

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVRX4000/DENON-AVR-X4000-7.2-4K-Ultra-HD-Networking-Receiver-w/AirPlay/1.html

Don't know how things work out price-wise in the UK.

refurb, but I have no problems with that - my last 2 AVRs were refurbs and just fine.

Detailed specs here:

http://usa.denon.com/us/product/pages/productdetail.aspx?catid=avreceivers(denonna)&pid=avrx4000(denonna)
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post #18 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 01:00 PM
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I was in the same boat and went from a Ref 50 to an X4000 in my 5.1 setup. I am using the 4000 as a pre/pro feeding my B&K AV6000 amplifier. I am happy with the sound I'm getting with this setup along with my Klipsch all around speakers. It doesn't sound as BIG as the B&K did but in my opinion it sounds much less fatiguing. I suppose because of the Audyssey XT32. With my old B&K system witch I sat up with an SPL meter sometimes it was just a relief for me to turn it off. Now I can leave my system running all the time and it doesn't bother me.
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post #19 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not interested in refurbished (been there and been burned). I will probably never stray from 5.1 but you never know so I think 7.2 is more than enough. I will never go with 2 subs unless I could sell my svs as I don't need 2 behemoths. With that said I still don't see the difference in my original 3 to start with other than; the Denon x4000 offers the XT32 , the Onkyo 929 offers 9.2 (meaning I would never need an additional amp for the 2 zones, and the Marantz 7701 offers perhaps a "cleaner" pre-pro (albeit &400 more). Either way I do not see not using my B&K amp (esp with 6ohm fronts). Also still wondering about the EQ properties of the Pioneer SC 67 since I can get it at such a discount ($1000) and perhaps with those D3 amps may be able to get away with keeping my B&K in storage.
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post #20 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

There's a X4000 here for $899

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVRX4000/DENON-AVR-X4000-7.2-4K-Ultra-HD-Networking-Receiver-w/AirPlay/1.html

Don't know how things work out price-wise in the UK.

refurb, but I have no problems with that - my last 2 AVRs were refurbs and just fine.

Detailed specs here:

http://usa.denon.com/us/product/pages/productdetail.aspx?catid=avreceivers(denonna)&pid=avrx4000(denonna)

UK prices being totally different to the USA I'm afraid. We pay £1,200 (which is about $1,900) for the X4000, but I've found a deal that I can buy the 4520 for £1,500 (approx $2,400). We don't really get offers for refurbs either over here (they probably just sell them as new rolleyes.gif).

Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

The only reason to get the 4520 is if you plan to go to 11.x. Otherwise, there's not much difference between it and the 4000.

There is a useful feature in the 4520 which will allow me to assign the internal amps to suit that I'm using an external 3 channel power amp for the LCR. Though I might be able to do this in the X4000. I'm not going 11.2 yet, but may well do later on, so initially I'll go 9.2 with front heights to add to my existing surround back 7.2 setup). However, I probably won't go 11.2 until I build a dedicated room and that might some years away and I may want a new amp by then anyway.


I've downloaded the manuals for them both and keep reading things up as I think of them: I'm familiar with Denon since I still use a 3805 in a second room and I owned a 2808 before my current processor. The 2808 allowed some handy 'quick settings' which I think the 4520 allows and need to check the X4000 manual for shortly. I'm picking up my MK MP150 and 150T speakers on Monday evening (local dealer who opens late cool.gif) so I've got plenty to occupy me in the meantime while I try to make a decision over the X4000 vs 4520. Since neither is currently discontinued then I should have time to make a decision and not have to rush (I also could do with selling my AV9 processor and P1000 power amp to help pay for the new amp, so I might have to revert to my 3805 for a while).

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post #21 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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The $35 Chromecast HDMI dongle might be a better choice than a Bluetooth dongle for the Android usage. Though she would have to use the Google Play Music App to stream to the X4000 until more apps come out. There is a slight learning curve the first time you use it. Both music and 1080P video quality is awesome with method. True 1080P Play Movies or Youtube content look higher quality than Dish Network HD channels for example.
That seems interesting. Are there any other Bluetooth options that works like that
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post #22 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 02:39 PM
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I don't know much about Bluetooth options. I only use it for phone voice calls in my car. Never for audio listening. I never liked it for that.

Interesting note about Chromecast is that the dongle streams the movie video or music content over wifi directly from the cloud except when you are "projecting" your Chrome browser tab from a Mac of other laptop/desktop to the AVR and TV through Chromecast. My daughter like to project her online games to the avr/tv.

Anyway I don't want to hijack the thread. My point is that IMHO you shouldn't be too concerned with Bluetooth as a feature when selecting an AVR. I acknowledge that you may have specific needs for BT that newer technologies can not satisfy however.
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post #23 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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For what its worth I just got off the phone with an Adviser from Crutchfield and he recommended a Marantz 7701 over the Denon or Onkyo (they sell all 3). He stated that Marantz is a higher line of Denon as Integra is to Onkyo as is Lexus to Toyota. I really don't know if that is the case but what did make sense is that buying the Seperate I am not getting all the noise associated with the on board amp and with the Denon I would paying for an amp that I would not be using. Is this why pre-amps start at a higher price? Convincing the consumer that it HAS to be better, just because it costs more and I have a seperate amp and if I was a sucker once surely I would be again? I feel that with so many seperate amps sold over the years there will always be a market for seperates but is it really better and if so is i that much different if at all?
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post #24 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Also he did say that from what he understands the only difference between the Audyssey xt and xt32 is 8 spots to measure as opposed to 6. And that the Marantz can be adjusted (eq wise) at any time (I did not know what he was referring to though).
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post #25 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moodyda View Post

Also he did say that from what he understands the only difference between the Audyssey xt and xt32 is 8 spots to measure as opposed to 6. And that the Marantz can be adjusted (eq wise) at any time (I did not know what he was referring to though).

There are many times more filters for subwoofer and satellite speakers using xt32 in addition to more measuring points.

http://audyssey.com/technologies/multeq/flavors
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post #26 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moodyda View Post

Also he did say that from what he understands the only difference between the Audyssey xt and xt32 is 8 spots to measure as opposed to 6. And that the Marantz can be adjusted (eq wise) at any time (I did not know what he was referring to though).

Sorry, but not only does Crutchfield at times post incorrect specs for the AVRs they sell, they apparently also put out incorrect information as well. XT and XT32 both can use up to 8 mic positions, but that is where the similarity stops as XT32 has 32x more speaker EQ control points and 4x more sub EQ control points than does XT which as I noted in post #5 of this thread, results in a noticeable improvement. And with Audyssey there are no "adjustments" regardless of whether using XT or XT32.

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post #27 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 06:21 PM
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I think that your best bet in your situation with room considerations and price point is to go for the Denon x4000 (or the Onkyo 929/Marantz 7008 price/preference/style) as they all have Audyssey xt32.  The Marantz 7701 was born outdated xt only (shame looks great otherwise).  Using your B&K will do any of these justice and with the Denon in particular there are many ways to configure the on board amp to use in the separate zones you mentioned as well as an opportunity to Bi-amp as well.  Good luck!   

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post #28 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Sorry, but not only does Crutchfield at times post incorrect specs for the AVRs they sell, they apparently also put out incorrect information as well. XT and XT32 both can use up to 8 mic positions, but that is where the similarity stops as XT32 has 32x more speaker EQ control points and 4x more sub EQ control points than does XT which as I noted in post #5 of this thread, results in a noticeable improvement. And with Audyssey there are no "adjustments" regardless of whether using XT or XT32.

Once the Audyssey does its set up can you manually tweak it (I was able to on my Pioneer sc25)
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Originally Posted by thewirenut View Post

I think that your best bet in your situation with room considerations and price point is to go for the Denon x4000 (or the Onkyo 929/Marantz 7008 price/preference/style) as they all have Audyssey xt32.  The Marantz 7701 was born outdated xt only (shame looks great otherwise).  Using your B&K will do any of these justice and with the Denon in particular there are many ways to configure the on board amp to use in the separate zones you mentioned as well as an opportunity to Bi-amp as well.  Good luck!   
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Sorry, but not only does Crutchfield at times post incorrect specs for the AVRs they sell, they apparently also put out incorrect information as well. XT and XT32 both can use up to 8 mic positions, but that is where the similarity stops as XT32 has 32x more speaker EQ control points and 4x more sub EQ control points than does XT which as I noted in post #5 of this thread, results in a noticeable improvement. And with Audyssey there are no "adjustments" regardless of whether using XT or XT32.

Don't want to sound dumb but can you Biamp a regular 2 post speaker (i don't think so but why not ask?)
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post #29 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 08:03 PM
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^^
Unlike MCACC on your Pioneer, you cannot manually "tweak" the on board Audyssey. And no, you cannot bi-amp a 2 post speaker, although even if it were bi-amp able, it is unlikely you would notice any benefit either in additional power (only 1 power supply) or audio fidelity (need external amps/crossovers).

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post #30 of 69 Old 09-26-2013, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
Unlike MCACC on your Pioneer, you cannot manually "tweak" the on board Audyssey. And no, you cannot bi-amp a 2 post speaker, although even if it were bi-amp able, it is unlikely you would notice any benefit either in additional power (only 1 power supply) or audio fidelity (need external amps/crossovers).

But I can indeed use my B&K as the main amp for the Denon x4000 and use its on board amp to power my other 2 zones correct? Also how does the Marantz 7008 compare to the Denon (it gets good reviews) and I probably would be able to leave the B&K amp in the attic.
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Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , Onkyo Tx Nr929 9 2 Channel Network A V Receiver , Marantz Av7701 Audio Video Preamp Processor , Pioneer Sc25 Sc 25 Sc 25 Elite 7 1 Channel Digital Home Theater Thx Receiver , Onkyo Ht Rc370 7 2 Channel Thx Certified Network Audio Video Receiver Black
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