Reciever vs. Seperates - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Did you add 5dB to the sensitivity of your speakers to account for room gain?

Nope. Reran it, still need close to 500 watts though
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post #92 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

Reran it, still need close to 500 watts though

Then the next question is could your speakers handle 500w continuous to get the spl you require?

What particular speakers do you have?

Another option is to bring the speakers closer to your listening position. A couple of benefits (other than needing less amp power) is they won't be needing to play as hard so will have less distortion and most speakers sound better with plenty of space around them anyhow. Or bring the listening position closer to the speakers.
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post #93 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I'm glad you posted this because I have an amp that sounds better than my receivers too. I'm sick of people stating that I didn't do a double blind, bla, bla bla... Seriously, do they think everyone's opinion is moot unless they setup an extensive test. It's not a huge difference, but I can hear it in certain passages. I'm not imagining it.

I generally don't recommend buying separates because the differences, in most cases, doesn't justify the cost.

Yeah, in normal conditions there should not be a difference between 2 amps, signal goes in, gets bigger, comes out. But I don't think we should take manufacturer ratings as gospel either. I agree that two amps should always be 100% equal across all frequencies at all impedences, etc but I don't believe that this is possible in real life, not at the price points we are talking about. I also believe that manufacturing defects can and do happen which may cause an amp to run at less than perfect operation. If a cap was poorly soldered or a card not fully seated, there would be a reduction in the current being able to be supplied. My point is that words like always, must, every, are troubling because they fail to take into account real world events which can have an effect.

When I can, I look at AVRs from the standpoint of their service manuals, which include schematics. AVR power amps use many of the same circuits and output devices as separates. So there is no lacking there. They are often less beefy in the realm of power supplies and heat sinks, but for month or three I've been using technical arguments to explain why that doesn't have to be a problem.

My comments on the differences between bench tests and actual use are partially based on my experience with doing bench tests of power amps since I was 13 - now over 54 years. Besides being a music lover, I'm a test equipment junkie and among other things have two operational Audio Precision test sets in my lab.

One of the more enlightening experiences was a day several years ago where a friend (Tom Nousaine then of Sound and Vision) and I tested about 10 amps in a day. This is no mean feat and the centerpiece of the testing involved playing a recording of test tones and music into both resistive and loudspeaker loads and recording the output of the amps with a fantastically clean new audio interface. It quickly became apparent that the segments of the tests involving test tones and resistive loads put a ton more stress on the amps then the segments involving music and speaker loads.
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I'm sick of people stating that I didn't do a double blind, bla, bla bla... Seriously, do they think everyone's opinion is moot unless they setup an extensive test.

You seem to have zero practical experience with the difference between sighted evaluations and well-done listening tests. In about 95% of all cases they change people's thinking away from where you are now in short order. The other 5% are dealers, high end manufacturers, and die hard true believers. The tech staff of mainstream manufacturers are usually as quickly convinced as everybody else.

The reason why people think that opinions are moot unless people do proper listening tests is because of the evidence of their ears. It changes dramatically when you level match, time synch, blind, and provide people with the opportunity to quick switch when they want to. Being able to do those things dramatically improves your true ability to hear small differences. That is one of the things under the heading of "The evidence of your ears".

If you haven't had the experience, you really have very little to say but "When can I do a blind test?" ;-)
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post #94 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Then the next question is could your speakers handle 500w continuous to get the spl you require?

What particular speakers do you have?

Another option is to bring the speakers closer to your listening position. A couple of benefits (other than needing less amp power) is they won't be needing to play as hard so will have less distortion and most speakers sound better with plenty of space around them anyhow. Or bring the listening position closer to the speakers.

Mirage m1-si
Speaker placement and listening positions are fixed for me.
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post #95 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I'm glad you posted this because I have an amp that sounds better than my receivers too. I'm sick of people stating that I didn't do a double blind, bla, bla bla... Seriously, do they think everyone's opinion is moot unless they setup an extensive test. It's not a huge difference, but I can hear it in certain passages. I'm not imagining it.

Yes, as far as I'm concerned you are imagining it. Sorry.
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post #96 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

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Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

Reran it, still need close to 500 watts though

Then the next question is could your speakers handle 500w continuous to get the spl you require?

What particular speakers do you have?

Several posts back he said ". Mirage m1-si is make and model." There is a Stereophile test of them online, so we have impedance curves and a third party look at efficiency. They are rated for use with amps up to 500 watts. Thing is that 500 watt limit is only about 4 dB more than what you find in the larger AVRs, so the difference in loudness available is less than a subjective "Twice as much".

I did a quick tech eval and it is possible that a 500 watt amp driven close to clipping wouldn't melt them right away. A 2000 watt amp, which is what he would require for that magical "Twice as loud" would not be a good idea to push beyond 500 watts.

He says that he listens to significantly less than reference level (105 dB peak, 85 dB average) which doubles the odds that an AVR could be enough.
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post #97 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

Mirage m1-si

I see they are rated to handle up to 500w http://www.stereophile.com/content/mirage-m-1si-loudspeaker-specifications

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Speaker placement and listening positions are fixed for me.

Why is that? Your speakers being bipolar will sound a lot better from being well off the wall behind them anyhow.

And you wouldn't happen to be using the speakers with subs and bass management would you? That there could dramatically change power requirements for the speakers.
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post #98 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

I see they are rated to handle up to 500w http://www.stereophile.com/content/mirage-m-1si-loudspeaker-specifications
Why is that? Your speakers being bipolar will sound a lot better from being well off the wall behind them anyhow.

And you wouldn't happen to be using the speakers with subs and bass management would you? That there could dramatically change power requirements for the speakers.

Sorry I meant that the speakers are 3 feet from the wall, but I cannot bring them any further out than they already are.
Pure Direct mode so that should bypass all of that.
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post #99 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

I don't think he meant it was impossible to put a 4 ohm load on an amp. It will work fine until you brush the limits of the amp. With my bigger room, i feel I hit my receiver limits sooner than I would in a smaller room.

I have a dedicated line for the receiver/tv/cable box/DVD. 20 amp line on 10 ga from a 400 amp panel.

How does lack of available current manifest itself in an amplifier? I am not talking gross shortages where the thing goes into protection, but typical sags and shortages.

No doubt a sub would be nice to have.

What you say is certainly possible. But understand that you don't need to fill the whole room. You only need to fill the area bounded by the speakers and your listening position. If you had to fill the whole area then you would need more power than an AVR can provide. If the 20 amp line is enough then I have no clue what might be causing your anomaly. I've never seen it before. Perhaps someone else has some experience with it. How does lack of available current manifest itself in an amplifier? If the amplifier cannot provide enough power to the speakers it will clip and that will give you audibly distorted sound if the clipping gets bad enough. My wild guess would be that if the amp is not clipping then the problem is somewhere else. If you can borrow an oscilloscope, you can see clipping visually on the scope screen and measure it.
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post #100 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 02:12 PM
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"When I can, I look at AVRs from the standpoint of their service manuals, which include schematics. AVR power amps use many of the same circuits and output devices as separates. So there is no lacking there. They are often less beefy in the realm of power supplies and heat sinks, but for month or three I've been using technical arguments to explain why that doesn't have to be a problem."

I will have to look for those.


"My comments on the differences between bench tests and actual use are partially based on my experience with doing bench tests of power amps since I was 13 - now over 54 years. Besides being a music lover, I'm a test equipment junkie and among other things have two operational Audio Precision test sets in my lab. "

I respect your thoughts and experiences.

"One of the more enlightening experiences was a day several years ago where a friend (Tom Nousaine then of Sound and Vision) and I tested about 10 amps in a day. This is no mean feat and the centerpiece of the testing involved playing a recording of test tones and music into both resistive and loudspeaker loads and recording the output of the amps with a fantastically clean new audio interface. It quickly became apparent that the segments of the tests involving test tones and resistive loads put a ton more stress on the amps then the segments involving music and speaker loads."

Sorry, I don't understand what you were expecting with this test. If you run an amp with a continuous tone, into a bank of resister(s), you are subjecting the amp to one of the worst possible conditions short of setting it in an oven set to 180 first. Sort of like driving a motorhome up a never-ending hill while towing a boat at 70mph. smile.gif I guess if you wanted to see how hot you could get the amp, or how long it took to heat/cool/re-heat...a test like that would work, but at face value it does not seem applicable.
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post #101 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

What you say is certainly possible. But understand that you don't need to fill the whole room. You only need to fill the area bounded by the speakers and your listening position. If you had to fill the whole area then you would need more power than an AVR can provide. If the 20 amp line is enough then I have no clue what might be causing your anomaly. I've never seen it before. Perhaps someone else has some experience with it. How does lack of available current manifest itself in an amplifier? If the amplifier cannot provide enough power to the speakers it will clip and that will give you audibly distorted sound if the clipping gets bad enough. My wild guess would be that if the amp is not clipping then the problem is somewhere else. If you can borrow an oscilloscope, you can see clipping visually on the scope screen and measure it.

I really dont think it is the power line...the klout does just fine with the same circuit when it is on it. A lame power supply in the AVR could be part of it. I don't know.
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post #102 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 02:29 PM
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I truly appreciate everyone trying to solve the issue for me and for offering a variety of opinions and without name calling smile.gif Thanks!!!!

I was expressing my past experiences with my receiver and my speakers.

I have already determined that that particular receiver (vsx-1120) will not work for me, not with these speakers. I have a full 5.0 setup with matching M3-si and M5-si (center) which I plan on setting up...I tried the AVR with the M1's just to see how it would do. In my opinion, it did not do as well as my separates. I wanted the receiver to do better. It has all the hdmi switching, current codecs, and all the other bells and whistles that my old-school pre-amp (AV5103) does not. I already have the separates (Klout x3) to power the 5.0, but really liked the idea of getting it all done with 1 box, less heat, more efficiency. Thats why I tried the AVR that I have on hand. Perhaps I need to try other receivers with better amps in them. I am not dead-set against the AVR, its just my experience with 1 receiver was not favorable. As I stated earlier on, I was comparing a $3,000+ amp retail back in the day with a $400 receiver. I would not expect them to perform identically.
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post #103 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

but really liked the idea of getting it all done with 1 box, less heat, more efficiency. Thats why I tried the AVR that I have on hand

If I was you I would continue using the AVR as the pre (providing it has pre-outs?) and look around for affordable 500w poweramp options. ie. Emotiva or look at the D-class amp manufacturers that are popping up more and more these days if you particularly want less heat and more efficiency.
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post #104 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 02:49 PM
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No pre-outs on this AVR...but I get what you are saying. Especially since I already have the amps. Thanks!
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post #105 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 05:07 PM
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To all (in this rather lively exchange) -

How does one measure the quality of an AVR vs separates with respect to audio?

Things that come to mind -

What is the pre-amp section putting out as far as signal?
How does one measure the amp section output?

There seems to be lots of variables here including of course, the speakers themselves.

It would seem that one would need a source that plays tones at all the hertz levels that the speaker could play and measure the pre-amp/amp out put for accuracy and ideally being flat. Then again, speakers don't seem to work that way so again it is unclear that ideal accuracy is something in theory not real practice.

Tests that seem to make some sense would possibly include AVR pre-amp to its own amps vs amp separate or to another AVR unit's amps and then of course its own amp section and so on.
Have there been any tests like this worth reading about with popular AVR and separates?

What I also can't seem to wrap my head around is the notion of analogue vs digital. It seems that if I ran analogue from my player to my AVR it gets digitized again before going out the speaker lines. What really is the advantage of this over just digital in and out? Is there really any plus to going analogue out of my player (for CD, DVDa or ...)?

I have a very modest set up that works well in my less than acoustically ideal flat:
AVR - Marantz NR1602
Speakers - All AON 3
TV - Panasonic 65VT50 plasma
Player - Oppo Bdp103
TiVo 3
NAS stored music (AAC 256, 96/24 flac, CD to flac and Apple lossless, DVD and Bd level media files with HD audio streams)

From what I have been reading, I should be less concerned about the pre/amp section and more about the ability to calibrate plus any bells and whistles I may want. Hopefully someone could give me a good constructive response. I really do enjoy good sound and image and more so if I am making intelligent choices in purchases.
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post #106 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Phrehdd View Post

To all (in this rather lively exchange) -

How does one measure the quality of an AVR vs separates with respect to audio?

Things that come to mind -

What is the pre-amp section putting out as far as signal?
How does one measure the amp section output?

There seems to be lots of variables here including of course, the speakers themselves.

It would seem that one would need a source that plays tones at all the hertz levels that the speaker could play and measure the pre-amp/amp out put for accuracy and ideally being flat. Then again, speakers don't seem to work that way so again it is unclear that ideal accuracy is something in theory not real practice.

Tests that seem to make some sense would possibly include AVR pre-amp to its own amps vs amp separate or to another AVR unit's amps and then of course its own amp section and so on.
Have there been any tests like this worth reading about with popular AVR and separates?

What I also can't seem to wrap my head around is the notion of analogue vs digital. It seems that if I ran analogue from my player to my AVR it gets digitized again before going out the speaker lines. What really is the advantage of this over just digital in and out? Is there really any plus to going analogue out of my player (for CD, DVDa or ...)?

I have a very modest set up that works well in my less than acoustically ideal flat:
AVR - Marantz NR1602
Speakers - All AON 3
TV - Panasonic 65VT50 plasma
Player - Oppo Bdp103
TiVo 3
NAS stored music (AAC 256, 96/24 flac, CD to flac and Apple lossless, DVD and Bd level media files with HD audio streams)

From what I have been reading, I should be less concerned about the pre/amp section and more about the ability to calibrate plus any bells and whistles I may want. Hopefully someone could give me a good constructive response. I really do enjoy good sound and image and more so if I am making intelligent choices in purchases.

* First improvement I would make with your set up is the speakers. Then the AVR with a room EQ. No point upgrading your AVR with those speakers.

* There isn't really an audible difference between any AVR in the $0 to $1000 range which is most peoples price range. Anybody on here who says they can hear a difference given the same source and speakers (assuming the AVR can drive the speakers at the same db level) is blowing smoke and fooling themselves. 85db via an AVR vs. 85db via an external amp will sound exactly the same.

* Some AVRs have better frequency ranges then others and better THD then others. Ok, are you really going to pick out a dif between 0.08% THD and 0.05% THD? No.

* You NEVER want to go analog until you are ready to go out to your speakers. Keep it 100% digital up til the last second. D -> A & A -> D conversions do change the signal a little bit... no need to do it til you have to (speakers). Again, not gonna make a huge difference, but best practice to avoid analog. Digital has higher bandwidth and 100% signal quality. You can introduce interference with analog.
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post #107 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

* First improvement I would make with your set up is the speakers. Then the AVR with a room EQ. No point upgrading your AVR with those speakers.

* There isn't really an audible difference between any AVR in the $0 to $1000 range which is most peoples price range. Anybody on here who says they can hear a difference given the same source and speakers (assuming the AVR can drive the speakers at the same db level) is blowing smoke and fooling themselves. 85db via an AVR vs. 85db via an external amp will sound exactly the same.

* Some AVRs have better frequency ranges then others and better THD then others. Ok, are you really going to pick out a dif between 0.08% THD and 0.05% THD? No.

* You NEVER want to go analog until you are ready to go out to your speakers. Keep it 100% digital up til the last second. D -> A & A -> D conversions do change the signal a little bit... no need to do it til you have to (speakers). Again, not gonna make a huge difference, but best practice to avoid analog. Digital has higher bandwidth and 100% signal quality. You can introduce interference with analog.

Hmmmm what exactly do you see as faulty with my speakers? I am not being defensive just curious as to what makes for a great speaker by your standards? When I was younger in my "boogie nights" days, I was never one for quantity over quality and also tended to lean towards high efficiency speakers. Things have changed considerably but unless one is getting into some very expensive speakers, I don't know what would deliver "superior" sound in my "AON 3" price range. Help me out here in what I should be looking for if the AON 3 is not it.
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post #108 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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It's just funny that the people who recommend the AVR's dont really have any idea how much a sub draws power from the amp. A sub in any reciever will draw about 75% of the power. You have members that have just joined asking for what to drive their speakers and subs with and all the advices given are go with a 5.1 or 7.1 AVR's which states 100 wpc (and alot of it is prabably BS as well its alot lower) so you are stuck with a 100wpc reciever driving 87 efficient speakers, most of the time 5 of them at a time + a sub. So in reality, the speaker is getting about 20 wpc with a common AVR driving 87 or lower effcient speakers. And many say they sound the same as a stereo AMP which are giving in solid state case, 100wpc clean.


???
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post #109 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 07:22 PM
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It's just funny that the people who recommend the AVR's dont really have any idea how much a sub draws power from the amp. A sub in any receiver will draw about 75% of the power.

How do you figure a sub will draw 75% of the power from an AVR when the AVR is only sending signals to the sub? The subwoofer has it own internal amplification.
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post #110 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 07:51 PM
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It's just funny that the people who recommend the AVR's dont really have any idea how much a sub draws power from the amp. A sub in any reciever will draw about 75% of the power. You have members that have just joined asking for what to drive their speakers and subs with and all the advices given are go with a 5.1 or 7.1 AVR's which states 100 wpc (and alot of it is prabably BS as well its alot lower) so you are stuck with a 100wpc reciever driving 87 efficient speakers, most of the time 5 of them at a time + a sub. So in reality, the speaker is getting about 20 wpc with a common AVR driving 87 or lower effcient speakers. And many say they sound the same as a stereo AMP which are giving in solid state case, 100wpc clean.


???

That's kind of funny...in a sad way. Looks like you still
Have a lot to learn...

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post #111 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 08:12 PM
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I didn't know they still made passive subs haha.
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post #112 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 08:34 PM
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A sub in any reciever will draw about 75% of the power.

I've never seen "a sub" in any AVR I've ever owned wink.gif. I do not recall anyone using an AVR to drive a passive sub if many are using passive subs at all anymore.
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post #113 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 08:42 PM
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Didn't you just join AVS recently?

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He's already been exposed as a salesman. See earlier posts.
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post #114 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 09:03 PM
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Don't feed the naim troll! That bit about the 75% of an avr's power for a sub on a pre-out is priceless.

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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post #115 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 09:43 PM
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When is someone going to report this fool?
I did and then deleted it.
NAIM101 is harmless but is what I consider a polluter.
Posting totally mindless, pointless, meaningless drivel.
That members bother to respond only feeds the mindlessness.
This twerp doesn't know anything, can't prove he owns anything, and regurgitates ad copy from wherever.
I can't fathom what motivates him to do what he does but this is the internet and it requires no key code.
You would have thought this kind of wanking would be worn out by 2013, but apparently there are still wankers at large.
C'mon mods, please, make it stop.

 

It ain't ignorance causes so much trouble; it's folks knowing so much that ain't so

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post #116 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phrehdd View Post

Hmmmm what exactly do you see as faulty with my speakers? I am not being defensive just curious as to what makes for a great speaker by your standards? When I was younger in my "boogie nights" days, I was never one for quantity over quality and also tended to lean towards high efficiency speakers. Things have changed considerably but unless one is getting into some very expensive speakers, I don't know what would deliver "superior" sound in my "AON 3" price range. Help me out here in what I should be looking for if the AON 3 is not it.

I was not insulting your speakers, sorry, lol, I just meant that your AVR is more then enough to handle them, so there is no point in upgrading it. A new AVR with Room EQ is not going to give you a night & day difference in audio quality. In fact, its not even going to give you an audible difference. Only time you will get an audible difference is by upgrading your speakers.
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post #117 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

Only time you will get an audible difference is by upgrading your speakers.

First he could work on optimising what he already has.

How much acoustic symmetry do you have with your room? How much space do the speakers have? How well integrated are the subs? How smooth and free of big dips and peaks is the measured frequency response from the listening position?
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post #118 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 10:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post

It's just funny that the people who recommend the AVR's dont really have any idea how much a sub draws power from the amp. A sub in any reciever will draw about 75% of the power. You have members that have just joined asking for what to drive their speakers and subs with and all the advices given are go with a 5.1 or 7.1 AVR's which states 100 wpc (and alot of it is prabably BS as well its alot lower) so you are stuck with a 100wpc reciever driving 87 efficient speakers, most of the time 5 of them at a time + a sub. So in reality, the speaker is getting about 20 wpc with a common AVR driving 87 or lower effcient speakers. And many say they sound the same as a stereo AMP which are giving in solid state case, 100wpc clean.


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?????gordon
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post #119 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 10:19 PM
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My avr goes hmmmm but my amp goes hummmm

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post #120 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 10:20 PM
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Bad joke

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