Reciever vs. Seperates - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 334 Old 09-25-2013, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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It just baffles me after hearing from someone that this forum got hijacked by members saying that AVR sounds the same as seperates and all amps sound the same etc. only to find out today it wasnt like this before and this was a REAL audio forum. I really honestly wanted to know if some of the old members really think there is no difference. I mean,


How can you say THIS









Sound the same as THIS??? (Denon AVR)










I really wanted to hear some honest opinons from the old members. Thank you.
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post #2 of 334 Old 09-25-2013, 07:09 PM
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they are both pictures so sound the same = no sound !

Seriously, posting a picture of some box w/parts, then another box with parts, and then expecting a debate?
More like a troll IMO, have fun with your thread.

btw, what the heck does old or new members have to do with anything?
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post #3 of 334 Old 09-25-2013, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I figure since most of the regular members here that have not been here long insist on AVR and seperates sounding the same, they themselves got their AVR theory from the older members. So I thougt I just get straight to the source.


Higher quality parts = better sound.

How can you honestly say a AVR that has a power supply unit right next to a processer will sound just as clean as seperates? The AVR that are used today and the parts are made from China and the processors in the AVR cost $5.00 and power supply cost like $10.00.. And you really expect to hear clean sound with soundstage?

The above pictures are seperates. The below are AVR's that many members recommend all the time. That is a new Denon reciever that rertails for $1,000.

I mean atleast be equal to OPPO 105 and they are clearly not, yet many members still recommend the AVR's. Why? Honest question. Thank you.



OPPO -105


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post #4 of 334 Old 09-25-2013, 07:14 PM
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This AVR looks like it sounds pretty good... smile.gif

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post #5 of 334 Old 09-25-2013, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Can we get a REAL picture from top looking straight down?
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post #6 of 334 Old 09-25-2013, 07:33 PM
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... many members still recommend the AVR's. Why?
IMO, it's because for most people a good-quality AVR provides all the functionality, power and audio / video quality they need, in a single box, for a reasonable price.
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post #7 of 334 Old 09-25-2013, 07:46 PM
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Great sounding pics guys...

FYI. The goal of any power source should be transparency.
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post #8 of 334 Old 09-25-2013, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post

It just baffles me after hearing from someone that this forum got hijacked by members saying that AVR sounds the same as seperates and all amps sound the same etc. only to find out today it wasnt like this before and this was a REAL audio forum. I really honestly wanted to know if some of the old members really think there is no difference. I mean,
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
How can you say THIS









Sound the same as THIS??? (Denon AVR)









I really wanted to hear some honest opinons from the old members. Thank you.

You learned that from a well known troll - see post #10.

If you were really interested in learning then you would take the time to understand what makes an audible difference and what doesn't and focus your efforts on the former instead of the latter.

Have you ever participated in any form of blind testing? If not I highly encourage you to try for yourself. It can and will be a huge mind opening experience.

I would also recommend to you or any others out there not to completely dismiss the ideas presented by users such as Arnyk or Eithan Wiener or Bill Fitzmourice among many others. These guys have dedicated a good portion of their adult lives to discovering what makes an audible difference and what doesn't and how all this stuff works together.

Of course if you are one to believe that a price point is a spec then all this would likely fall on deaf ears. It is up to you which rabbit hole you want to go down - the one that makes beneficial audible differences or the one that just empties your wallet in a fruitless effort chasing inaudible specs and marketing hype.
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post #9 of 334 Old 09-26-2013, 12:06 AM
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The AVR that are used today and the parts are made from China and the processors in the AVR cost $5.00 and power supply cost like $10.00.. And you really expect to hear clean sound with soundstage?

Yet again "Made in China" mindset!!!! Mind you, today's digital wrist watches have more processing speed than the control units used in the space shuttle that carried man to the moon in mid 60s. Why is the digital watch so cheap then?? Lemme make a wild guess.....economies of scale.

But having said that, all avrs don't sound the same. And do away with "made in china" mindset. If you take China out of equation, you'd be pretty much back in the stone age.
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post #10 of 334 Old 09-26-2013, 05:21 AM
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To use an analogy, a $20 Casio watch keeps just as good of time as a $2,000 Rado unless if you maybe waited for years to see a difference. Doesn't matter one was made in China and one in Switzerland. You don't buy the Rado because it keeps better time. That said, I still prefer separates biggrin.gif
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post #11 of 334 Old 09-26-2013, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post

I figure since most of the regular members here that have not been here long insist on AVR and separates sounding the same,

That is a false claim. Since separates seem to largely be lost in a major technological time warp, it is entirely possible for an AVR based system to sound far better.
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they themselves got their AVR theory from the older members.

Notably, older members with closets full of classic and current separates, taken out of service and replaced with AVRs.
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So I thought I just get straight to the source.

Or move onto to forums where you don't see the people who have provided you with well-documented evidence that destroys your claims don't post.
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Higher quality parts = better sound.

Never heard of diminishing returns, have you? ;-)

Of course higher quality parts are required for better sound, but there is a matter of diminishing returns and perceived versus actual value. The real question is "higher quality than what?"

Back in the 1970s we still found high end audio components with what we would now call crappy parts, carbon composition resistors for example. In the 1990s carbon and metal film resistors with tight tolerances became commoditized. Today, you simply don't find gear that lacks them because lower quality parts have gone the way of the dodo bird. So, are there higher quality parts that actually provide better sound quality than was is used in good mass market products today? It appears not. The last advance in resistor technology was surface mounting which cuts production costs and facilitates further reduction in the size of circuit boards.
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How can you honestly say a AVR that has a power supply unit right next to a processor will sound just as clean as separates?

Because signals in the digital domain are very robust and maintain their integrity in electrically noisy environments. I guess you didn't know that?
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The AVR that are used today and the parts are made from China and the processors in the AVR cost $5.00 and power supply cost like $10.00..

First off you obviously have no clue as to the costs of AVR processors and power supplies, and how they relate to the high end. The world is full of engineers that would love to build an AVR power supply for $10 -they cost more even when built in China. As far as the processors go, the chips are made in Silicon Valley and shipped to China and other parts of the Pacific rim for encapsulation. You find the same actual chips in a mid-priced AVR, a high priced AVR and those few separates that are technologically advanced to contain them. In another thread it was revealed that a legacy high end brand was rebranding a mid-priced surround processor/control center as its own. The punch line is that the mid-priced version uses a more advanced version of processing code that is known to be better, more effective and thus better sounding.

Bad mouthing China indicates ignorance. Just because its made in China doesn't mean it has technical failings. Products either fully made in China or containing subassemblies or parts made in China are very hard to avoid. Ever read the back panels of high end audio components? I guess not! Most are proudly emblazoned with "Made in Chiina" and those that aren't contain parts and subassemblies made in China.
Quote:
And you really expect to hear clean sound with soundstage?

Not only expect it but obtain it. You don't seem to know that the primary influences in having clean sound with excellent soundstaging are loudspeakers and room acoustics.
Quote:
The above pictures are separates. The below are AVR's that many members recommend all the time. That is a new Denon reciever that retails for $1,000.

I would like to know what sort of educational credentials and life's experiences allow you to judge soundstaging from photographs?

You;ve been asked this question before, and AFAIK no answers. You posts read like they were written by a semi-literate middle schooler. Are you even over 25? Serious question that you will no doubt ignore.
Quote:
I mean at least be equal to OPPO 105 and they are clearly not, yet many members still recommend the AVR's. Why? Honest question. Thank you.

Honest answer, we have the evidence of bench testing, listening evaluations, and decades of experience and education. What overwhelming advantage do you have over us?
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post #12 of 334 Old 09-26-2013, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post

It just baffles me after hearing from someone that this forum got hijacked by members saying that AVR sounds the same as seperates and all amps sound the same etc. only to find out today it wasnt like this before and this was a REAL audio forum. I really honestly wanted to know if some of the old members really think there is no difference. I mean,


How can you say THIS









Sound the same as THIS??? (Denon AVR)










I really wanted to hear some honest opinons from the old members. Thank you.

First of all...am I an "old enough" member? confused.gif

Yes PRE PROS and AVRS sound the same if not driven into clipping. This of course assumes that room EQ systems/tone controls are defeated and other sound "enhancers" or modifiers, duly so.

I realize guys more concerned with impressing people and bragging rights don't want to believe this, but it's been proven over and over again...and I've already offered up an AVS ABX with very few on the "other side" willing to partake. Go figure...we'd hate to have some definitive answers, right (that we ALREADY have, but what the heck)?

All this coming from a hobbyist running separates, lmao. Why? Because I had a spectacular opportunity to purchase external amps that I will likely actually NEED in my upcoming VERY large space...yep, will prolly actually NEED the additional 4-5dbs of output in this space for the levels I tend to listen.

Otherwise, a well-designed and constructed AVR will offer identical sound quality in the vast majority of small to large rooms.

The pictures look great, by the way. Now, what do they have to do with the SOUND either produce? I'm well aware of the talking points (including "build quality", less heat, superior circuitry, DACs, etc) do you have anything new?

James

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Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #13 of 334 Old 09-26-2013, 08:53 AM
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Get real dude... if I stuck you in an avg sized room (20' x 20') and did a blind A/B test with you given the same source material and device and the same speakers, you could not tell the difference between a $100 AVR and a $10,000 pre/pro system (assuming the $100 AVR could drive the speakers properly at the same volume). By "same volume" I don't mean "call the cops" volume, I mean a realistic volume that the average person is going to be listening at in thier home.

Get over yourself and your external amps... the majority of people don't need them these days.

You don't need a 500hp Corvette to drive on the streets if you aren't racing. Can't use 500hp.

Any AVR at 80 to 90db is going to sound almost exactly the same as an external amp running at 80 to 90db. Again, assuming its good enough to drive your speakers without clipping / distortion.
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post #14 of 334 Old 09-26-2013, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

Get real dude... if I stuck you in an avg sized room (20' x 20') and did a blind A/B test with you given the same source material and device and the same speakers, you could not tell the difference between a $100 AVR and a $10,000 pre/pro system (assuming the $100 AVR could drive the speakers properly at the same volume). By "same volume" I don't mean "call the cops" volume, I mean a realistic volume that the average person is going to be listening at in thier home.

Get over yourself and your external amps... the majority of people don't need them these days.

You don't need a 500hp Corvette to drive on the streets if you aren't racing. Can't use 500hp.

Any AVR at 80 to 90db is going to sound almost exactly the same as an external amp running at 80 to 90db. Again, assuming its good enough to drive your speakers without clipping / distortion.
Been saying this for years although I buy a step or two down from Flagships just to get the amps that will play well with low impedance.
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post #15 of 334 Old 09-26-2013, 01:58 PM
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Years ago, there was no doubt that if you wanted top quality sound, you stepped up and bought separates. However, we're talking 20 plus years, here. A lot has happened, technology got in the way. The sound quality gap between separates and receivers is all but closed. Very, very few people (if any) can actually hear the difference. You can ask any custom home theater builder what they use in their own home and 90% will tell you they use a receiver. For some time now we've been seeing increased use of receivers in $200k, $400k, $750k, heck, even 1 million dollar installs. At some point you have to stop and ask yourself why. Think about it, the answer is simple.
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post #16 of 334 Old 09-26-2013, 02:45 PM
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Years ago, there was no doubt that if you wanted top quality sound, you stepped up and bought separates. However, we're talking 20 plus years, here..

20 years? Did you ever have a chance to hear Marantz's first receivers made in the 1960's? I owned a 2015 many years ago. It was fantastic.
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post #17 of 334 Old 09-26-2013, 02:54 PM
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can of worms time....eek.gif
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post #18 of 334 Old 09-26-2013, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

You learned that from a well known troll - see post #10.

If you were really interested in learning then you would take the time to understand what makes an audible difference and what doesn't and focus your efforts on the former instead of the latter.

Have you ever participated in any form of blind testing? If not I highly encourage you to try for yourself. It can and will be a huge mind opening experience.

I would also recommend to you or any others out there not to completely dismiss the ideas presented by users such as Arnyk or Eithan Wiener or Bill Fitzmourice among many others. These guys have dedicated a good portion of their adult lives to discovering what makes an audible difference and what doesn't and how all this stuff works together.

Of course if you are one to believe that a price point is a spec then all this would likely fall on deaf ears. It is up to you which rabbit hole you want to go down - the one that makes beneficial audible differences or the one that just empties your wallet in a fruitless effort chasing inaudible specs and marketing hype.

very well said....

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post #19 of 334 Old 09-26-2013, 09:58 PM
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I don't think that technology has really improved the sound quality of amplifiers that much in the last 20 years. I have a pair of old Mirage M1si's and when I power them through my pioneer vsx1120 which is 110watts per channel I can tell you that the sound is nowhere near as nice as when I use my Linn Klout which is only 80 watts.

I firmly believe that the receiver has a lot of features, but in my experience, it is nowhere near the quality of a good amp. I do realize I am comparing apples and oranges but I do not feel that the quality between the two is that close yet. Granted my speakers area tad inefficient, but at moderate volumes the two amps are nowhere close. The Klout has way deeper bass, and it is just easier to follow the inhividual notes/voices than it is when listening to the receiver in direct pure stereo mode. It just sounds like it is cruising along whereas the receiver sounds like it is having as hard time/straining. I wanted the receiver to do well...it would be much simpler/cheaper if it could manage...but it didn't in my situation

Flame suit on.
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post #20 of 334 Old 09-26-2013, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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What do you expect with all the processing for video/audio and supplying power to 5 channels or 7 channels at the same time bunched up in a box? You have got to be kidding to think that a AVR will sound just as clean as seperates.
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post #21 of 334 Old 09-26-2013, 10:18 PM
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I didn't think they would be close. But some of the earlier posters seem to believe that all amps sound the same.
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post #22 of 334 Old 09-26-2013, 10:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

IMO, it's because for most people a good-quality AVR provides all the functionality, power and audio / video quality they need, in a single box, for a reasonable price.


This seems to be the most reasonable and sane answer.
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post #23 of 334 Old 09-26-2013, 10:47 PM
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You have got to be kidding to think that a AVR will sound just as clean as seperates.

Not true.

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post #24 of 334 Old 09-26-2013, 11:15 PM
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I had seperates years ago and the tech was not showing up in the pre-pros so i moved to AVR's to get the extras and to my ears I could not tell the difference at the time i was still using external amps then I went to Flagships or a model down and found i could do away with the external amps.
I was hard headed at first running my mains at full range then i came to my senses and bought a sub and let it handle the bottom end even better negating the need for high watt amps.
I then found my sound difference between the mid level and Flagships was not do to the 20 or so greater watts it was in fact do to low impedance handling abilities since most speakers dip at the end of mid bass.
I also got wiser about hearing damage and no longer try to play extremely loud music/movies those that continue doing this will lose that golden ear they are proud of.
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post #25 of 334 Old 09-26-2013, 11:45 PM
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I never owned separates but I've heard a lot from Krell, Classe, and NAD. I currently own CA Azur 751R and it bests my friend's Krell pre/pro. He's running B&W diamond series and mine are Klipsch (RF-82II, RC-62II, RS-52II). Although listening environments are different, but CA is fantastic in channel separation. Not comparing dynamics and headroom coz of different room acoustics at his place and mine.

One hec of an avr 751R is.

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post #26 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 12:04 AM
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Oz,

I also can't hear a difference between my $9000 NAD seperates and my AVR that I replaced them with. The extra 50lbs in metal casing doesn't seem to add to the sound quality. Shocking.
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post #27 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 12:13 AM
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I also can't hear a difference between my $9000 NAD seperates and my AVR that I replaced them with. The extra 50lbs in metal casing doesn't seem to add to the sound quality. Shocking.

You'll hear the max difference in the speakers, which are actually the eventual end of the sound chain.
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post #28 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 12:24 AM
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A few years ago I went out and purchased a Pioneer Elite SC-35 when they first came out. I was truly blown away by it's performance over my Pioneer VSX-1021-K. They were both rated roughly the same, power wise, but the I.C.E amps in the SC-35 were far superior in sound quality and output.

I later got the upgrade bug again and added a Emotiva XPA-5 into the mix to get a little more "oomph" out of my system. I talked myself into the idea that the Emotiva made a difference but when I was honest with myself a few months down the road, I realized I couldn't tell a difference at all between the SC-35 powering my speakers and the XPA-5 powering my speakers. I really tried my hardest to keep the Emotiva, but just couldn't justify it's cost. The blue lights sure were pretty sitting in my rack though..

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post #29 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 12:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

You'll hear the max difference in the speakers, which are actually the eventual end of the sound chain.


Speakers will cover about %60 and the room treatments about 20% and the separtes about 20%.
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post #30 of 334 Old 09-27-2013, 12:36 AM
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Speakers will cover about %60 and the room treatments about 20% and the separtes about 20%

How did you come with such percentages?

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