why is so much emphasis put on features rather than sound quality for surround sound recivers? looking for a new reciver - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 06:01 AM - Thread Starter
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i am currently redoing my home theater setup. i do not have a big budget. but i have installed bic fh8-w in wall speakers for the front chanels, the matching center chanel, 2 bic 12" formula subs, and 2 sets of bic fh6-w rear in walls for the surround and rear channels. i know alot of people do not l;ike in walls for home theater, but after listening to them they work work perfect for me. now i am looking for a reciver. but when looking up reviews and comparissons it seems that all reviews only compare features rather than sound quality. which recivers actuall have better surround sound. i dont need much in features. i would like audyssey multi eq or xt, hdmi switching, and 7.1. what would you guys recomend. ive been looking at the denon avr-890 but cant seem to find a review on the sound quality. any help?
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post #2 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saint1000 View Post

i it seems that all reviews only compare features rather than sound quality. which recivers actuall have better surround sound.
In a blindfolded test you'd be hard pressed to hear any difference in the sound quality between a $300 and a $3,000 AVR, since all in that range have flat full bandwidth frequency response and inaudible distortion. That leaves reviewers little to talk about other than features. The only meaningful difference between most AVRs is their current delivery capacity, which is very difficult to derive from specs, and which very few reviewers will actually measure. One giveaway as to current capacity is the rated minimum speaker impedance. Mediocre AVRs will only be rated for 8 ohm loads, average AVRs will be rated for 6 ohms. Better AVRs will be rated for 4 ohms, the best for 2 ohms.

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post #3 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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so as far as seperation in sound and gun shots sounding like gun shots, there wont be much difference? so as long as i find a reciver with the features i want brand wont make much difference in the way it sounds? this will make it easy!
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post #4 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 06:32 AM
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I agree with Bill's thoughts. One other difference is the quality of the room correction offered. Entry level AVRs will have a basic room correction system. A more expensive AVR will offer a more advanced form of room correction that can make ones system sound better in their room depending on the acoustical issues in that room.

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post #5 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 06:42 AM
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A long time ago, the saying was that knobs per dollar was what sold amps.
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post #6 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saint1000 View Post

i am currently redoing my home theater setup. i do not have a big budget. but i have installed bic fh8-w in wall speakers for the front chanels(sic), the matching center chanel(sic), 2 bic 12" formula subs, and 2 sets of bic fh6-w rear in walls for the surround and rear channels. i know alot(sic) of people do not l;ike in walls for home theater, but after listening to them they work work perfect for me. now i am looking for a reciver(sic). but when looking up reviews and comparissons(sic) it seems that all reviews only compare features rather than sound quality. which recivers(sic) actuall(sic) have better surround sound. i dont need much in features. i would like audyssey multi eq or xt, hdmi switching, and 7.1. what would you guys recomend(sic). ive(sic) been looking at the denon avr-890 but cant seem to find a review on the sound quality. any help?

First off, I'd like to hear why your post's spelling fell into such a deep hole between 2011 and 2013. There was a big absence and all of a sudden... Sorry but I gotta ask, is this a hijacked account?

All of a sudden we have all these baseless aspersions being cast at modern AVRs and what's important for good sound.

Do you believe that all components sound different?

I don't know what you call "features" but we seem to have entered a new age where the software running in an AVR may be more significant for system sound quality than old-fashioned heavy metal iron. For example surround processing is now pretty much universally done by software and different surround processors may be based on different software running on different microcomputers. Another example is the system optimization software such as Audyssey, MCACC, and YPAO. These are different pieces of software that run on different processors.

Mere glitzy features or what it takes for the best sound in the second decade of the new millennium?
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post #7 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

First off, I'd like to hear why your post's spelling fell into such a deep hole between 2011 and 2013. There was a big absence and all of a sudden... Sorry but I gotta ask, is this a hijacked account?

what?

i am just trying to pick out a receiver for my surround sound
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post #8 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by saint1000 View Post

what?

i am just trying to pick out a receiver for my surround sound

Those bloody marys must be working on Arny.
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post #9 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Marantz guy View Post

A long time ago, the saying was that knobs per dollar was what sold amps.

Very old school. My Denon AVR has just one knob and 13 buttons.

The knobs and buttons used to be a valid concern because each one was always in the signal path. Today the signal path is in the digital domain and will continue to pass signals perfectly if the corresponding knob or button completely goes away and is replaced by a black hole.
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post #10 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saint1000 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

First off, I'd like to hear why your post's spelling fell into such a deep hole between 2011 and 2013. There was a big absence and all of a sudden... Sorry but I gotta ask, is this a hijacked account?

what?

i am just trying to pick out a receiver for my surround sound

I could be getting paranoid because of the recent parade of trolls.
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post #11 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
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no problem. i got lots of help a couple years ago setting up my htpc but havent changed anything in years untill now. so thats why i havent posted.
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post #12 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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i am also looking at a onkyo TXNR709. any thoughts
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post #13 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by saint1000 View Post

i am also looking at a onkyo TXNR709. any thoughts

Not a bad choice.

Depending on what country you are in, us USA folks can get a refurb NR 818 with Audyssey Multieq XT32 (better) for less:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR818/Onkyo-TX-NR818-7.2-Ch-THX-Certified-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html
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post #14 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Not a bad choice.

Depending on what country you are in, us USA folks can get a refurb NR 818 with Audyssey Multieq XT32 (better) for less:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR818/Onkyo-TX-NR818-7.2-Ch-THX-Certified-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html

The problem with the 818 is that it doesn't include SubEQ HT which will measure and calibrate phase and distance of his two sub separately. That will be a moot point if they are placed next to each other, but it's something to consider. It is one heck of a deal though. I almost bought one for a relatively cheap third setup until I found that out.
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post #15 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 11:02 AM
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OP concerned about sound quality from the AVR, but buys in wall speakers. Mind = Blown smile.gif. Personally, I have in-ceiling speakers for my 2 rears lol, but would *never* do that or in-walls for the mains. You can't just stick them in any old wall and not have distortion. You need a higher build quality wall and specifcally you need to use a very rigid speaker box to prevent vibrations.

Anyways, regardless of your speaker situation, you aren't going to be able to tell the diff between SQ on AVRs (assuming your AVR can properly drive your speakers). Your ears aren't that sensitive.

Only differentiator these days is features / bells & whistles & asthetics.

Yeah, the more expensive AVRs use more expensive components, but they aren't audibly better in most scenarios.
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post #16 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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i knew i would get some slack for using in walls smile.gif but i dont have a big budget and i installed a set of these in my bar room and they sound fine for me. i dont listen to movies and mind blowing volume levels, but like things to sound nice. i cant afford 1000 for a set of front speakers. my system now sounds good to me but its old and needs to be updated. trying to keep the whole update under 1000. i feel anything i put in there will sound better than my 20 year old bostons and denon reciver. as long as i get get seperation from the channels im happy. thanks for all every ones help!
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post #17 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Not a bad choice.

Depending on what country you are in, us USA folks can get a refurb NR 818 with Audyssey Multieq XT32 (better) for less:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR818/Onkyo-TX-NR818-7.2-Ch-THX-Certified-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html

The problem with the 818 is that it doesn't include SubEQ HT which will measure and calibrate phase and distance of his two sub separately. That will be a moot point if they are placed next to each other, but it's something to consider. It is one heck of a deal though. I almost bought one for a relatively cheap third setup until I found that out.

It would be nice to clarify this issue, but the link that is usually given for the list of AVRs that have Audyssey which is usally given as:

http://www.audyssey.com/products?tid%5B%5D=100&pid=All&ptype=All

turns out to be broken.

Anybody have a better link?
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post #18 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by saint1000 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

First off, I'd like to hear why your post's spelling fell into such a deep hole between 2011 and 2013. There was a big absence and all of a sudden... Sorry but I gotta ask, is this a hijacked account?

what?

i am just trying to pick out a receiver for my surround sound

I could be getting paranoid because of the recent parade of trolls.

Arny - I immediately suspected same, a troll, glads to find a legit Q from a real AVS person.

OP - suggest looking at a good used AVR, like a Denon 4311 possibly, some you can even buy extended warranty for them....
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post #19 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Not a bad choice.

Depending on what country you are in, us USA folks can get a refurb NR 818 with Audyssey Multieq XT32 (better) for less:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR818/Onkyo-TX-NR818-7.2-Ch-THX-Certified-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html

The problem with the 818 is that it doesn't include SubEQ HT which will measure and calibrate phase and distance of his two sub separately. That will be a moot point if they are placed next to each other, but it's something to consider. It is one heck of a deal though. I almost bought one for a relatively cheap third setup until I found that out.

It would be nice to clarify this issue, but the link that is usually given for the list of AVRs that have Audyssey which is usally given as:

http://www.audyssey.com/products?tid%5B%5D=100&pid=All&ptype=All

turns out to be broken.

Anybody have a better link?

Arny - I posted my 11.3 room set-up on fb, and asked Chris K on his audysseytechtalk facebook page exactly that Q, he stated they stopped updating that handy webpage, here is his reply
https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/audysseytechtalk/
Quote:
September 20 at 11:50am.Seen by 41 people, 4 like this...
Michael A Rosinski btw, I have Audyssey Pro Lic, been too busy to tweak with that.
That's on my radar for future dialing in.
Chris - I used to find on Audyssey.com a listing of which AVR's held your advanced technologies, I can't find that anymore.
Did you stop publishing that due to took bandwidth to keep it current?
September 20 at 12:35pm via mobile · Like..Chris Kyriakakis Michael: yes, that's the reason. Room looks fantastic
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post #20 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 12:48 PM
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Saint1000, to you, the in walls sound nice. That's mostly because you don't know what you're missing when you're listening to them. They would pale in comparison to a $600 pair of stand alone speakers. In fact sound bars are even getting better. Then there's the upper end HTIB, if you want to start out with multichannel. With the speaker pair you could add a nice receiver for under a thou. And let's not forget speakers don't get dated like electronics. Quality speakers on the used market could be a buy and I would be less concerned about a warranty with speakers if they are working on day one.

As to the relative importance of sound and features of a receiver, that's been well explained already but I'll add this. Picture someone with a pair of Majicos looking for a receiver or amp. They only care how it sounds as along as it has speaker terminals.You on the other hand will be listening to speakers that will hardly bring out the nuances in difference from one receiver to the other with your untrained, less than "golden ears". I know the road you're on. I was there and wish I had added my current Meridian speakers a long time ago. So your relative importance of speakers should be skewed to let you know how much to spend of your budget on electonics.

Oh, you don't have to respond to Arnyk. He didn't respond to my jab of his spelling of "Multieq ST" or something like that on another thread. In fact he's probably just another old fart like me. Our generation has low tolerance of the "Texting Generation". In fact my spell checker didn't even like "Texting". But OTOH, IIRC he'll respond to light hearted zings, LOL.

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post #21 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

It would be nice to clarify this issue, but the link that is usually given for the list of AVRs that have Audyssey which is usally given as:

http://www.audyssey.com/products?tid%5B%5D=100&pid=All&ptype=All

turns out to be broken.

Anybody have a better link?

There is talk about it in the official NR818 thread. Here's one of the many posts regarding the lack of SubEQ on the 818.
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post #22 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


I could be getting paranoid because of the recent parade of trolls.

Arny - I immediately suspected same, a troll, glads to find a legit Q from a real AVS person.

Agreed
Quote:
OP - suggest looking at a good used AVR, like a Denon 4311 possibly, some you can even buy extended warranty for them....

There's a XT4000 here: http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVRX4000/DENON-AVR-X4000-7.2-4K-Ultra-HD-Networking-Receiver-w/AirPlay/1.html for $899 that has both Multieq XT32 and Subeq XT http://usa.denon.com/us/product/pages/productdetail.aspx?catid=avreceivers(denonna)&pid=avrx4000(denonna)
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post #23 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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im really leaning towards onkyo txnr709. it has all the features i need including multieq xt and can be had for 399. 449 with a 5 year warranty. my denon avr 2600 is now almost 20 years old and still working fine with dolby digital with my boston vr 30 towers and vr12 center. but my kids have beat them up pretty bad playing knee hockey in the living room and honestly i would love to get my speakers off the floor. i realize i will not get the sound most of you are looking for nor could i afford it.(oldest son is in travel hockey)! but i am looking to get in to 7.1, everything including cable runs through my htpc with blu ray player. i never listen to music on this system, strickly tv and movies. so is it really going to be that bad with the inwalls?
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post #24 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 07:05 PM
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If you have a $1000 budget and want a NOTICEABLE sound quality upgrade, that money would be best spent on upgrading your 3 front speakers. Probably not gonna be that much better with $1000 for all 3... but you can get some damn nice ones for that $$$. Or you can get your front mains now for $500 to $600 each and upgrade the front center at a later date.

You just aren't gonna get any bang for your buck upgrading your AVR. Just gonna be bells & whistles. HDMI switching, HDMI features, room EQ, etc.
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post #25 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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If you have a $1000 budget and want a NOTICEABLE sound quality upgrade, that money would be best spent on upgrading your 3 front speakers..

i have already purchased the b.i.c. in walls, and installed them, so thats a done deal. right now i am running them off my old denon in a 5.1 set up. so basicly what im getting from everone here is it doesnt matter what reciver i get, its going to sound the same. so im going to look for the cheapest reciver with the features i want and run with that. like i said it has to sound better than my 20 year old set up.
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post #26 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 07:38 PM
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Don't rule out the power of Audyssey to maximize what you already have. XT32 is their highest consumer version available on the mid-higher end receivers.
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post #27 of 29 Old 09-26-2013, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saint1000 View Post

i have already purchased the b.i.c. in walls, and installed them, so thats a done deal. right now i am running them off my old denon in a 5.1 set up. so basicly what im getting from everone here is it doesnt matter what reciver i get, its going to sound the same. so im going to look for the cheapest reciver with the features i want and run with that. like i said it has to sound better than my 20 year old set up.

With a $1000 budget for the features, I'd go with the Denon X4000. That has the best room EQ out there. Audyssey XT32.
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post #28 of 29 Old 09-27-2013, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saint1000 View Post

i have already purchased the b.i.c. in walls, and installed them, so thats a done deal. right now i am running them off my old denon in a 5.1 set up. so basicly what im getting from everone here is it doesnt matter what reciver i get, its going to sound the same. so im going to look for the cheapest reciver with the features i want and run with that. like i said it has to sound better than my 20 year old set up.

With a $1000 budget for the features, I'd go with the Denon X4000. That has the best room EQ out there. Audyssey XT32.

Agreed. Besides Audyssey XT32 the OP seems to need Sub EQ HT because he has 2 subs - "2 bic 12" formula subs". The XT4000 fills the bill.

This raises the question: "Can all this intelligence in the AVR fix what may be a suboptimal set of speakers?"

Maybe not fix, but probably materially improve. Given the constraints, seems like the only logical game in town.
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post #29 of 29 Old 09-27-2013, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

It would be nice to clarify this issue, but the link that is usually given for the list of AVRs that have Audyssey which is usally given as:

http://www.audyssey.com/products?tid%5B%5D=100&pid=All&ptype=All

turns out to be broken.

Anybody have a better link?

Neither the Onkyo 818 nor the newer 929 feature Audyssey Sub EQ HT, rather only the higher models do (1010, 3010, and 5010).

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