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post #31 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by emofan21 View Post

I have no WAF since she likes to listen just as loudly and also comments on how thin the mid and low bass gets when turned up...I married her because of he good ears..and loving of JAZZ and movie soundtracks..lol

I suspect that there are one of two causes for your loss of impact when you turn your system up.

One is the expected loss of dynamic range at lower frequencies because of the inherent limitations that we commonly see in speakers that claim to have built-in subwoofers. Subwoofer upgrades can help this. I only have a fraction of your investment in my audio system but it does have 2 each 12 inch subwoofers with 2 15s on the way.

The other is that your system may not good bass extension at any level, but your ears expect to hear more extended bass as you turn the volume up, which just ain't there. Audyssey Multieq can help this.
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post #32 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

If memory serves, the last of the tubed recording equipment was wheeled out of all but specialty recording studios in the early 1970s. The last of the analog recorders were wheeled out in the 1990s.

You can find a few studios with both, but they are specialist, niche or boutique houses. Both technologies have far higher capital and operating costs and have to charge a steep premium if they are going to run like a business.
You are being aggressively mislead. The worst thing that can be said about good SS playback equipment is that it is highly accurate and clean. In the heyday of tubes there was tubed equipment that was very clean, and much of the tubed equipment that is sold by McIntosh for example, is still that way. A lot of modern tubed equipment is intentionally made in ways that are throwbacks to the 1930s and earlier. There was a lot of very successful development of tubed audio technology through the 1960s and early 1970s so equipment that is built on earlier technology is a lot less clean and good as can possibly be done with tubes.

I built my first power amp in about 1958 and of course it was made with tubes and used the most modern technology of the day. This modern retro tubed technology gives me a headache and a tummy ache because it is worse than the best that can be reasonably done.

So some1 please explain to me why so many demos at CEDIA and CES shows still use tube amps to demo their new speaker lines as well as AV stores??...I see eitha tubes or monoblocks..no AV store I been in outside of Best Buy..uses AVR to showcase and audition speakers..
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post #33 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I suspect that there are one of two causes for your loss of impact when you turn your system up.

One is the expected loss of dynamic range at lower frequencies because of the inherent limitations that we commonly see in speakers that claim to have built-in subwoofers. Subwoofer upgrades can help this. I only have a fraction of your investment in my audio system but it does have 2 each 12 inch subwoofers with 2 15s on the way.

The other is that your system may not good bass extension at any level, but your ears expect to hear more extended bass as you turn the volume up, which just ain't there. Audyssey Multieq can help this.
Thanks but I use the AUDESSY all the time..the XT it stays on..unless im listening to vinly..only then do I turn it off..because to my ears the sound of vinly is more natural and open when Audessy is turned off...The speakers all but disappear...but when I engage Audessy the sound gets more focused and pin point..which assures me that im listening to good speakers..instead of a live performance
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post #34 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 02:49 PM
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These manufacturer's/stores are generally trying to differentiate themselves from places like Best Buy so as to create the high end illusion. To the layman it would seem that an amp which costs more and looks fancier must be better right? The truth rarely gets a look in with audio marketing.
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post #35 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


If memory serves, the last of the tubed recording equipment was wheeled out of all but specialty recording studios in the early 1970s. The last of the analog recorders were wheeled out in the 1990s.

You can find a few studios with both, but they are specialist, niche or boutique houses. Both technologies have far higher capital and operating costs and have to charge a steep premium if they are going to run like a business.
You are being aggressively mislead. The worst thing that can be said about good SS playback equipment is that it is highly accurate and clean. In the heyday of tubes there was tubed equipment that was very clean, and much of the tubed equipment that is sold by McIntosh for example, is still that way. A lot of modern tubed equipment is intentionally made in ways that are throwbacks to the 1930s and earlier. There was a lot of very successful development of tubed audio technology through the 1960s and early 1970s so equipment that is built on earlier technology is a lot less clean and good as can possibly be done with tubes.

I built my first power amp in about 1958 and of course it was made with tubes and used the most modern technology of the day. This modern retro tubed technology gives me a headache and a tummy ache because it is worse than the best that can be reasonably done.

So is Prima Luna any good or should I stick with McIntosh?


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post #36 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 03:20 PM
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Wse, there is no point in spending another $3,000 if you have a good McIntosh amp. If you want the tube sound put 1/3 of silver in your cable chain (interconnects/speaker cables including). It will give you the warm tube sound while increasing soundstage this way.
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post #37 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

The suggestion to go with multiple subs in that large of a room is a very good one IMO. Add another JL 112 and I would think you will improve the dynamics of your system quite a bit.

Bill
Thanks bill..but I also have the option of using the internal 1200 watt amp in the subwoofer section of the triton twos..thas 1 in each..so I would have 3 subs putting out LFE signals..would that help..or should I get separate subs all togetha?
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post #38 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by NAIM101 View PostWse, there is no point in spending another $3,000 if you have a good McIntosh amp. If you want the tube sound put 1/3 of silver in your cable chain (interconnects/speaker cables including). It will give you the warm tube sound while increasing soundstage this way.

I don't have a Mcintosh or any other tube amps so I am wondering which route should I go?

 

McIntosh or Prima Luna


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post #39 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emofan21 View Post


So some1 please explain to me why so many demos at CEDIA and CES shows still use tube amps to demo their new speaker lines as well as AV stores??...I see eitha tubes or monoblocks..no AV store I been in outside of Best Buy..uses AVR to showcase and audition speakers..

Speakers for tubed amps is a product category. How else to demo them but to use tubed amps?

Do you find mainstream speaker manufacturers demoing product with tubed amps? Pretty darn rare!
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post #40 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post

Wse, there is no point in spending another $3,000 if you have a good McIntosh amp.

So far so good.
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If you want the tube sound put 1/3 of silver in your cable chain (interconnects/speaker cables including). It will give you the warm tube sound while increasing soundstage this way.

Absolutely no science behind that! Sliver interconnects were unheard of back in the days when tubes were all we had, yet somehow we had "tubed sound", like it or not!
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post #41 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

I don't have a Mcintosh or any other tube amps so I am wondering which route should I go?

McIntosh or Prima Luna


Depends on the sound you want. If you want a warm sound go with tubes, if you want a clean sound go with SS. One thing I notice is that tubes will always sound more musicaland engaging than SS.
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post #42 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 04:24 PM
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I have all solid state in my HT but was looking for my office stereo to maybe try tubes so McIntosh or Prima Luna?


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post #43 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post

Wse, there is no point in spending another $3,000 if you have a good McIntosh amp. If you want the tube sound put 1/3 of silver in your cable chain (interconnects/speaker cables including). It will give you the warm tube sound while increasing soundstage this way.
I don't have a Mcintosh or any other tube amps so I am wondering which route should I go?

McIntosh or Prima Luna

This appears to be a good technical review of a Prima Luna Tubed basic amp:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/prima-luna-prologue-one-integrated-amplifier-measurements



The wavy line that varies by over +/- 2 dB indicates that a typical speaker will be more strongly colored if used with this amp,which is generally thought to be a bad thing.

Now lets look at a test by the same reviewer of a Macintosh MC275 tubed amp:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/mcintosh-mc275-power-amplifier-measurements



Notice that the frequency response variations that are around +/- 0.25 dB which are barely audible, and characteristic of a good classic tubed amp. Back in the days of tubes I would have liked to have a good amp like this.
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post #44 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by emofan21 View Post

I don't think adding subs would help being ass my room has 16' ceilings has 5' bay window to the right of the front wall....is approximately 33'x18' with an open archway leading to an adjacent room
see what happens when you add a couple of jtr or seaton subs into the mix.
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post #45 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 04:43 PM
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I think emo and naim should combine their audio knowledge, and figure it out. now that would be for a good show. I think I'll get the popcorn ready.
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post #46 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

It's a troll getting into pre/pro Vs avr discussion. Anyway, you want more power in an HT set up, invest in more subs, preferably ported.

The interesting that the identical same post showed up, copied word for word in a new thread entitled "

Compare http://www.avsforum.com/t/1493214/more-oomph-plz#post_23795988

to

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1493089/to-pre-pro-or-not-to-prepro#post_23792847

Looks like a word for word copy to me. Looks like someone didn't get the answers he wanted to spam the forum with the first time, so he simply started a new thread with a word-for-word copy of the first post from the earlier thread.
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post #47 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by emofan21 View Post

well I hear that tubes give yu the best and cleanest sound from ALL recordings..both digital and analog alike..Am I being mislead??

You heard wrong. What you meant that you heard is that some nitpicky audiophiles in the 70's and 80's prefered the sound of tube amps when listening to records.

You were also mislead about speaker cable. As good as your hearing is, you can not tell the difference between $5 speaker cable and $5000 speaker cable. Many studies support that claim.
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post #48 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by emofan21 View Post

ok I will except ya condescending tone....smdh...ITS NOT ABOUT MONEY...its about the SQ....when I turn up my system it seems 2 get thin...the dynamics are there..but the sound seems to lack the punch that I get a lower volumes...which is ok late night..but not for my primetime movie nights with da kids...we all love it loud and powerfull...with every stomp of the HULKS feet crushing our insides...smh.

Best way is to sell your speakers and get dynamic speakers like the Tekton, Seatons or JTR's. You speakers from what I hear are laid back speakers. You want forward speakers that are dynamic that puts out a good soundstage.

Its also because you are using a common AVR which lacks anything relating to the first watt of powerring which will result in low performances at higher and lower volumes.

My suggestion is if you have the money, sell your current speakers and get the first watt amps and drive them with dynamic speakers like the ones I mentioned above. And for your space, get 2 HSU VTF-15H and stack them side by side so they dont cancel eachother out.
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post #49 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View PostThis appears to be a good technical review of a Prima Luna Tubed basic amp: http://www.stereophile.com/content/prima-luna-prologue-one-integrated-amplifier-measurements



The wavy line that varies by over +/- 2 dB indicates that a typical speaker will be more strongly colored if used with this amp,which is generally thought to be a bad thing.

Now lets look at a test by the same reviewer of a Macintosh MC275 tubed amp: http://www.stereophile.com/content/mcintosh-mc275-power-amplifier-measurements



Notice that the frequency response variations that are around +/- 0.25 dB which are barely audible, and characteristic of a good classic tubed amp. Back in the days of tubes I would have liked to have a good amp like this.

So it seems the McIntosh should be the way to go? Yes!  Thank you, now I need to find a good price for one :)


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post #50 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post

Best way is to sell your speakers and get dynamic speakers like the Tekton, Seatons or JTR's. You speakers from what I hear are laid back speakers. You want forward speakers that are dynamic that puts out a good soundstage.

Its also because you are using a common AVR which lacks anything relating to the first watt of powerring which will result in low performances at higher and lower volumes.

My suggestion is if you have the money, sell your current speakers and get the first watt amps and drive them with dynamic speakers like the ones I mentioned above. And for your space, get 2 HSU VTF-15H and stack them side by side so they dont cancel eachother out.

Thanks guys for all your suggestions...but on such a gorgeous day here in NYC where I live...I had my AV guy bring me over a JL Gotham g212....this mini fridge is a beats of sub...and it totally nailed what it is I wanted....the sheer impact of Optimus Primes stomps as he fought Sentinal Prime in Dark of the Moon...pressurized my room with such a brute forced..i think I NUTTED on myself...I was in total awe...my chest still hurting..i scared da sh*t out of my fish..which are in the adjacent room..prolly be dead by morning..smdh....but I appreciate all the advice and suggestions..but im shelling out the $5k and keeping this monster of a sub...the kids are happy ..the wife is happy..and now I AM...so 2 all..on this forum...just keep 1 thing in mind..ALL HEARING..VARIES FROM PERSON TO PERSON...IF IT SOUNDS GOOD 2 YOU...THEN IT IS...AND THAS ALL THAT MATTERS TECHNICAL BABBLE ASIDE...AFTER ALL..THE ONLY 1 LIVING WITH YOUR SYSTEM..IS IN FACT..YOU!!!..take care and gdbless all
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post #51 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 08:58 PM
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Just think what could happen when you get truly awesome subs....

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post #52 of 52 Old 10-02-2013, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Just think what could happen when you get truly awesome subs....
Im very content thanks anyway...this will be my last investment to my theater room...this year...Next up is da video upgrade gotta have da new Samsung ULTRA HD 4k...but thas 6 mos down the line..my 64" PND8000..suits us fine 4 now..lol smile.gif
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