to pre/pro..or not to prepro - AVS Forum
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Receivers, Amps, and Processors > to pre/pro..or not to prepro
emofan21's Avatar emofan21 08:28 PM 10-01-2013
Hey guys..i have a Marantz 7007 hooked up to my Goldenears triton twos cinema..with an AON2 as a center and subsat 3 as surrounds...now although my theater sounds phenominal..in my very acoustically challenged theater...I still yearn for more power...I have a JL FATHOM 112 sub and everything is connected via nordost vahalla speaker cables ....my questions is..how does the 7007 fair as a pre/pro?...Since I am a fan of emotiva im considering the XPA5 amp or the Sherwood equivalent...so any1 with a similar set up or any experience with this set up ...wud be greatly appreciated ..

braveheart123's Avatar braveheart123 12:38 AM 10-02-2013
It's a troll getting into pre/pro Vs avr discussion. Anyway, you want more power in an HT set up, invest in more subs, preferably ported.
Bill Mac's Avatar Bill Mac 06:28 AM 10-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by emofan21 View Post

Hey guys..i have a Marantz 7007 hooked up to my Goldenears triton twos cinema..with an AON2 as a center and subsat 3 as surrounds...now although my theater sounds phenominal..in my very acoustically challenged theater...I still yearn for more power...I have a JL FATHOM 112 sub and everything is connected via nordost vahalla speaker cables ....my questions is..how does the 7007 fair as a pre/pro?...Since I am a fan of emotiva im considering the XPA5 amp or the Sherwood equivalent...so any1 with a similar set up or any experience with this set up ...wud be greatly appreciated ..

The answer to question is very simple. Buy the XPA-5 and try it in your system. If you find it works well in your system then keep it and enjoy it. If you find no real SQ benefits with the addition of the amp return it or resell it (if bought used). I have never heard the 7007 but I would assume it makes for a fine prepro.

Bill
arnyk's Avatar arnyk 06:35 AM 10-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by emofan21 View Post

Hey guys..i have a Marantz 7007 hooked up to my Goldenears triton twos cinema..with an AON2 as a center and subsat 3 as surrounds...now although my theater sounds phenominal..in my very acoustically challenged theater...I still yearn for more power...

If all you do is yearn for more power, there would be no need for you to post this question. Just buy the biggest power amps you can afford and stick them in your listening room and look at them whenever you have this urge.
Quote:
I have a JL FATHOM 112 sub and everything is connected via nordost vahalla speaker cables

In other words wth name dropping about those expensive cables, you like drinking just about any brand of audio mythology kool aid?

This means that my previous advice is even more applicable.
Quote:
...my questions is..how does the 7007 fair as a pre/pro?

For your purposes which appear to be sonically shallow, the 7007 is as good or as bad as you want it to be.
Quote:
...Since I am a fan of emotiva im considering the XPA5 amp or the Sherwood equivalent...so any1 with a similar set up or any experience with this set up ...wud be greatly appreciated ..

Run right out and spend that money! It is obviously like an incendiary bomb in your pocket.

Now if you ever develop a desire for improved sound quality, we can handle that too. However there might be some talk about room acoustics which you you seem to find boring. ;-)
eljaycanuck's Avatar eljaycanuck 06:41 AM 10-02-2013
Quote:
... my questions is..how does the 7007 fair as a pre/pro?
In all likelihood, it would fare as well as it's currently faring in your system.
Quote:
Since I am a fan of emotiva im considering the XPA5 amp or the Sherwood equivalent ...
Another option is an XPA-3 for your front three, with the Marantz powering your surrounds.
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 07:02 AM 10-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by emofan21 View Post

Hey guys..i have a Marantz 7007 hooked up to my Goldenears triton twos cinema..with an AON2 as a center and subsat 3 as surrounds...now although my theater sounds phenominal..in my very acoustically challenged theater...I still yearn for more power...I have a JL FATHOM 112 sub and everything is connected via nordost vahalla speaker cables ....my questions is..how does the 7007 fair as a pre/pro?...Since I am a fan of emotiva im considering the XPA5 amp or the Sherwood equivalent...so any1 with a similar set up or any experience with this set up ...wud be greatly appreciated ..

 

They won't satisfy someone who lusts for power for power's sake. Oh no. Go for the XPR-1 monoblock. 100 pounds of absolute beast - 1000 watts into 8 ohms.1750 watts into 4 ohms. Get three - one for each of your LCR. A bargain at $4,500 for the three. Combine them with two XPA-1 500 watt monoblocks for the surrounds - just another 2 grand the pair. Awesome. 5 channels, 5 amps - the way it is Meant To Be. 

 

People will just simply gasp with admiration and envy when they see your setup. Friends will hail you as an audio-god. Neighbours will bow down to you even as their lights flicker on and off as your current draw starves the street, maybe even the entire subdivision, of energy. Virgins will throw themselves at your feet. You will, overnight, be transformed into an Internet guru with people from distant lands coming to worship on your altar of power. 

 

Of course, chances are you will hear absolutely zero audible difference from what you currently hear. And you will only have wasted spent $6,500.

 

How about spending a lot less on acoustic treatments and really making a difference to your SQ?


emofan21's Avatar emofan21 09:01 AM 10-02-2013
thanx alot
emofan21's Avatar emofan21 09:07 AM 10-02-2013
...smh.
emofan21's Avatar emofan21 09:12 AM 10-02-2013
rolleyes.gif
emofan21's Avatar emofan21 09:12 AM 10-02-2013
ok I will except ya condescending tone....smdh...ITS NOT ABOUT MONEY...its about the SQ....when I turn up my system it seems 2 get thin...the dynamics are there..but the sound seems to lack the punch that I get a lower volumes...which is ok late night..but not for my primetime movie nights with da kids...we all love it loud and powerfull...with every stomp of the HULKS feet crushing our insides...smh.
emofan21's Avatar emofan21 09:25 AM 10-02-2013
ok I will ignore ya condescending tone....smdh...ITS NOT ABOUT MONEY...its about the SQ....when I turn up my system it seems 2 get thin...the dynamics are there..but the sound seems to lack the punch that I get a lower volumes...which is ok late night..but not for my primetime movie nights with da kids...we all love it loud and powerfull...with every stomp of the HULKS feet crushing our insides...smh.
braveheart123's Avatar braveheart123 11:56 AM 10-02-2013
Quote:
ok I will except ya condescending tone....smdh...ITS NOT ABOUT MONEY...its about the SQ....when I turn up my system it seems 2 get thin...the dynamics are there..but the sound seems to lack the punch that I get a lower volumes...which is ok late night..but not for my primetime movie nights with da kids...we all love it loud and powerfull...with every stomp of the HULKS feet crushing our insides...smh.


You want loud, huge, 3D sound; invest in quality subs. I don't know who and why somebody put you on dedicated amp track for the speakers. They will yell for mercy trying to reproduce sub 30Hz material even if the are fed 1000 wpc.

If your current AVR is not thermally shutting down or it is not distorting signal at your reference volume, adding outboard expensive amps is like throwing your money in the bin. Add more and powerful subwoofers and be merry.
arnyk's Avatar arnyk 12:15 PM 10-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by emofan21 View Post

ITS NOT ABOUT MONEY...its about the SQ....

One audiophile myth is that there is a linear relationship between sound quality and cost. As it is with so many things there is smart money and there is other money. Smart money gets you so much more for the money that it breaks any rule that might tie sound quality to costs all that much. Yes, if you are lucky and/or smart you get what you pay for. But as it will evolve, its easy enough to get talked into poor values.
Quote:
when I turn up my system it seems 2 get thin...the dynamics are there..but the sound seems to lack the punch that I get a lower volumes...which is ok late night..but not for my primetime movie nights with da kids...we all love it loud and powerfull...with every stomp of the HULKS feet crushing our insides...smh.

What Braveheart said - the solution for thin sound is one or more good subwoofers. Beyond that, room acoustics are both fundamental to good sound and also the frosting on the sound quality cake.

People get sold a bill of goods in the form of speakers that allegedly have subwoofers "built in".
So what are these alleged subwoofers? "Two - 5˝ x 9˝ Long-Throw Quadratic Subwoofer Bass Drivers, " A 5 x 9 speaker has roughly 45 square inches of diaphragm area. A bit less than the more conventional 8 round driver, in this case 2 of them. That's 90 square inches total, which is a bit less than a single 12 inch round driver.

Because of basic geometry, a subwoofer with 2 smaller drivers can never have the deep bass and dynamic range potential of a larger driver with the same cone area. But I'd expect more of what you have, anyway.

BTW one of the limiations of speakers that allege they have subwoofers built in is that their subwoofers tend towards the low end. Another is that they define the location of the subwoofers, when in fact there are probably other places in the room that would yield better results.

Your AVR has Audyssey MultEQ XT and Dynamic Eq which can work together to address some of the things that you are complaining about. Are you exploiting them?

The big picture is that if you want punch at higher volumes, a more significant investment in subwoofers is indicated. You may also have your speakers arranged and your room's configured in such a way that they eat bass.

Are you with this so far? What WAF limitations are you facing?
FMW's Avatar FMW 01:22 PM 10-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by emofan21 View Post

ok I will ignore ya condescending tone....smdh...ITS NOT ABOUT MONEY...its about the SQ....when I turn up my system it seems 2 get thin...the dynamics are there..but the sound seems to lack the punch that I get a lower volumes...which is ok late night..but not for my primetime movie nights with da kids...we all love it loud and powerfull...with every stomp of the HULKS feet crushing our insides...smh.

Adding amplifiers won't have any effect on sound quality. But if you want them, go ahead and buy them.
SledgeHammer's Avatar SledgeHammer 01:49 PM 10-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Adding amplifiers won't have any effect on sound quality. But if you want them, go ahead and buy them.

Well, he supposedly bought $5000 speaker cables, so...
braveheart123's Avatar braveheart123 02:23 PM 10-02-2013
I once in my early HT days shipped Chord Odyssey speaker roll all the way from England, which claimed an arm and a leg of mine. Ended up throwing it away. Um currently using GLS Audio 12 AWG cable all around. And I must admit I noticed ZERO difference between the both. Threw the Odyssey away as it was extremely difficult to work with. GLS is super soft, easily bends around the corners, and relays clean power to my speakers. And to top it all, the price is peanuts per foot compared to Odyssey.
emofan21's Avatar emofan21 02:27 PM 10-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

You want loud, huge, 3D sound; invest in quality subs. I don't know who and why somebody put you on dedicated amp track for the speakers. They will yell for mercy trying to reproduce sub 30Hz material even if the are fed 1000 wpc.

If your current AVR is not thermally shutting down or it is not distorting signal at your reference volume, adding outboard expensive amps is like throwing your money in the bin. Add more and powerful subwoofers and be merry.

I don't think adding subs would help being ass my room has 16' ceilings has 5' bay window to the right of the front wall....is approximately 33'x18' with an open archway leading to an adjacent room
emofan21's Avatar emofan21 02:29 PM 10-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

Well, he supposedly bought $5000 speaker cables, so...

NOT supposedly..i did..but I got a great deal on them from a mom and pop that was goin out of bizness..bought them for about a 3rd of da cost...plz don't envy..just help.smh
emofan21's Avatar emofan21 02:34 PM 10-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

One audiophile myth is that there is a linear relationship between sound quality and cost. As it is with so many things there is smart money and there is other money. Smart money gets you so much more for the money that it breaks any rule that might tie sound quality to costs all that much. Yes, if you are lucky and/or smart you get what you pay for. But as it will evolve, its easy enough to get talked into poor values.
What Braveheart said - the solution for thin sound is one or more good subwoofers. Beyond that, room acoustics are both fundamental to good sound and also the frosting on the sound quality cake.

People get sold a bill of goods in the form of speakers that allegedly have subwoofers "built in".
So what are these alleged subwoofers? "Two - 5˝ x 9˝ Long-Throw Quadratic Subwoofer Bass Drivers, " A 5 x 9 speaker has roughly 45 square inches of diaphragm area. A bit less than the more conventional 8 round driver, in this case 2 of them. That's 90 square inches total, which is a bit less than a single 12 inch round driver.

Because of basic geometry, a subwoofer with 2 smaller drivers can never have the deep bass and dynamic range potential of a larger driver with the same cone area. But I'd expect more of what you have, anyway.

BTW one of the limiations of speakers that allege they have subwoofers built in is that their subwoofers tend towards the low end. Another is that they define the location of the subwoofers, when in fact there are probably other places in the room that would yield better results.

Your AVR has Audyssey MultEQ XT and Dynamic Eq which can work together to address some of the things that you are complaining about. Are you exploiting them?

The big picture is that if you want punch at higher volumes, a more significant investment in subwoofers is indicated. You may also have your speakers arranged and your room's configured in such a way that they eat bass.

Are you with this so far? What WAF limitations are you facing?

I have no WAF since she likes to listen just as loudly and also comments on how thin the mid and low bass gets when turned up...I married her because of he good ears..and loving of JAZZ and movie soundtracks..lol
emofan21's Avatar emofan21 02:36 PM 10-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Adding amplifiers won't have any effect on sound quality. But if you want them, go ahead and buy them.

Interesting because my initial set-up was going to include 3 Ayon tube amps to power the front speakers..and im still thinking..i should have went that route instead..so I can hear the tracks as the studio and designers intended..
lovinthehd's Avatar lovinthehd 02:41 PM 10-02-2013
So it's a living room and not a theater at all? Adding subs in that huge space will definitely help, though....why would you think it wouldn't? While your JL112 is a nice pretty sub it's not going to do as well as multiple subs, especially more capable ones. You might benefit somewhat from the additional amp with those speakers, at least they're rated to 500w although at 91dB sensitivity (assuming 1w/1m measurement) that avr you have now would drive them to quite loud levels. How far away are you from your speakers and what spl level are you trying to achieve? Even that 200w/ch amp over your current 125w/ch amp will not even get you an additional 3dB...
FMW's Avatar FMW 02:41 PM 10-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by emofan21 View Post

NOT supposedly..i did..but I got a great deal on them from a mom and pop that was goin out of bizness..bought them for about a 3rd of da cost...plz don't envy..just help.smh

No envy here. Believe me. Yes a subwoofer or two or 4 would make a huge difference for you regardless of the room size. You only need to worry about the area between your listening position and the audio system.
lovinthehd's Avatar lovinthehd 02:42 PM 10-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by emofan21 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Adding amplifiers won't have any effect on sound quality. But if you want them, go ahead and buy them.

Interesting because my initial set-up was going to include 3 Ayon tube amps to power the front speakers..and im still thinking..i should have went that route instead..so I can hear the tracks as the studio and designers intended..

You think your recordings were engineered with tubes in mind in this day and age?
emofan21's Avatar emofan21 02:57 PM 10-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

So it's a living room and not a theater at all? Adding subs in that huge space will definitely help, though....why would you think it wouldn't? While your JL112 is a nice pretty sub it's not going to do as well as multiple subs, especially more capable ones. You might benefit somewhat from the additional amp with those speakers, at least they're rated to 500w although at 91dB sensitivity (assuming 1w/1m measurement) that avr you have now would drive them to quite loud levels. How far away are you from your speakers and what spl level are you trying to achieve? Even that 200w/ch amp over your current 125w/ch amp will not even get you an additional 3dB...

Ok maybe im not making my self as transparent as I would like my speakers to be..lol...the Dynamics of my AVR..AUDessy ran and all...sounds amazing at moderate levels...I truly do get that.."in-my-room" sound that I desire..and since im not of the "IPOD" (always walking around with headphones in my ears ..distorting my hearing) generation...I think I hear relatively well...its when I want 2 really rock out and crank da volume...to idk wat db's....do I go from front row..to upper balcony...and my horro and action films just don't have da same impact...Adding of subs means adding outlets...too many wires too much running..how aboput if I jumped up to the Gotham g212..would that help at all??
emofan21's Avatar emofan21 02:59 PM 10-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

You think your recordings were engineered with tubes in mind in this day and age?

well I hear that tubes give yu the best and cleanest sound from ALL recordings..both digital and analog alike..Am I being mislead??
Bill Mac's Avatar Bill Mac 03:02 PM 10-02-2013
The suggestion to go with multiple subs in that large of a room is a very good one IMO. Add another JL 112 and I would think you will improve the dynamics of your system quite a bit.

Bill
Bill Mac's Avatar Bill Mac 03:04 PM 10-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by emofan21 View Post

well I hear that tubes give yu the best and cleanest sound from ALL recordings..both digital and analog alike..Am I being mislead??

Only way to know for sure is to try a tube amp in your system. Then you will know if you are being mislead or not.

Bill
wse's Avatar wse 03:05 PM 10-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View PostYou think your recordings were engineered with tubes in mind in this day and age?

Of course they are, come on just like cars are using horses :)

 

Beautiful-Horse-horses-22410583-1280-800.jpg

FMW's Avatar FMW 03:07 PM 10-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by emofan21 View Post

well I hear that tubes give yu the best and cleanest sound from ALL recordings..both digital and analog alike..Am I being mislead??

Yes.
arnyk's Avatar arnyk 03:18 PM 10-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd 
You think your recordings were engineered with tubes in mind in this day and age?

If memory serves, the last of the tubed recording equipment was wheeled out of all but specialty recording studios in the early 1970s. The last of the analog recorders were wheeled out in the 1990s.

You can find a few studios with both, but they are specialist, niche or boutique houses. Both technologies have far higher capital and operating costs and have to charge a steep premium if they are going to run like a business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by emofan21 View Post

well I hear that tubes give you the best and cleanest sound from ALL recordings..both digital and analog alike..Am I being mislead??

You are being aggressively mislead. The worst thing that can be said about good SS playback equipment is that it is highly accurate and clean. In the heyday of tubes there was tubed equipment that was very clean, and much of the tubed equipment that is sold by McIntosh for example, is still that way. A lot of modern tubed equipment is intentionally made in ways that are throwbacks to the 1930s and earlier. There was a lot of very successful development of tubed audio technology through the 1960s and early 1970s so equipment that is built on earlier technology is a lot less clean and good as can possibly be done with tubes.

I built my first power amp in about 1958 and of course it was made with tubes and used the most modern technology of the day. This modern retro tubed technology gives me a headache and a tummy ache because it is worse than the best that can be reasonably done.
Tags: Marantz Sr7007 Home Theater Av Receiver , Jl Audio Fathom F112 12 Inch Powered Subwoofer , Emotiva Xpa 5 5 Channel Power Amplifier , Emotiva Xpa 3 Amplifier
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