Would a bigger receiver (wattage wise) make a big difference in a small room? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 12 Old 10-07-2013, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Current setup (yea its old) is with Klipsch Synergy KSF 10.5 and matching center and rears. I bought them in 1998. I have a sony STR-DG820 (although I typically prefer yamaha receivers.

The 820 is rated at 100 watts

This whole thing started because i am looking at building a new Klipsch RF- speaker system using the RF-7ii's as fronts and started reading on how bigger receivers make speakers sound better

So I get into this spiral of buying speakers and then feeling I have to upgrade my receiver and such

So the main question is....the room is approx 14'x25' and I wonder if having all this wattage really makes a difference....meaning is going from the sony to lets say a Denon 4250CI or a yamaha RX-A3030 going to make a difference. Mainly I watch surround sound movies and TV on this setup so its my main home theatre system.

If the answer is yes it will make a difference, will I have to have the thing cranked to experience the difference?
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post #2 of 12 Old 10-07-2013, 05:03 PM
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100 to 125 watts probably not an audible difference maybe some with a 65 watt increase
of Yammie at higher levels or transients . The newer yammie and Denon will likely have better Dacs and
amplifier circuitry and room correction .

OTOH looking at the RF7II specs SENSITIVITY: 101dB @ 2.83V / 1m it would seem 100-125wpc should be fine actually more than enough. R U running subs?


OTOH They recommend 250W RMS / 1000W Peak so maybe a new a dedicated ~250wpc amp ? for the frts . ofc I'm assuming that 101dB @ 2.83V / 1m (basically 1 watt is at an 8 ohm specification.) or maybe bi amp option ? There are some dedicted Klipsch forums on the web that may know

http://www.avsforum.com/t/680426/klipsch-owner-thread
http://community.klipsch.com/forums/





F-7 II Floorstanding Speaker

30Hz-24KHz ± 3dB
SENSITIVITY: 101dB @ 2.83V / 1m
POWER HANDLING: 250W RMS / 1000W Peak
NOMINAL IMPEDANCE: 8 ohms compatible

http://www.klipsch.com/rf-7-ii-floorstanding-speaker/details#reviews

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post #3 of 12 Old 10-07-2013, 07:35 PM
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Moving up the price range will give you more features and probably a more advanced auto correction system for your surround system.smile.gif
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post #4 of 12 Old 10-07-2013, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
F-7 II Floorstanding Speaker

30Hz-24KHz ± 3dB
SENSITIVITY: 101dB @ 2.83V / 1m
POWER HANDLING: 250W RMS / 1000W Peak
NOMINAL IMPEDANCE: 8 ohms compatible

http://www.klipsch.com/rf-7-ii-floorstanding-speaker/details#reviews

with a 101db sensitivity, he shouldn't need much power to drive those speakers.

Afro GT
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post #5 of 12 Old 10-07-2013, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
afrogt wrote

with a 101db sensitivity, he shouldn't need much power to drive those speakers


Agree for the most most part 101db is extremely efficient.... unless the woofers are not contributing much to the measurement they used when they specified the sensitivity measurement at 1watt as is common with horn speakers . I'm thinking the measurements they achieved were heavily weighted to or a result of the Tractrix® Horn .

That and the choice of LF drivers might explain Klipsch recommending much higher wattage amp as minimum spec. I was surprised to see that considering the sensitivity spec. ofc one might need to attenuate the higher frequencies if that is the case when using higher power amp at higher levels . Bi amp is another option Klipsch has them strapped for that .



With the RF7II being a ported design rather than a folded horn like K horns or La Scalas the low end usually will not be as efficient on the ported design as the old schools .

I would also expect that most who buy those won't be driving those (or shouldn't be driving those ) with low end AVR's .
I have some speakers rated at 150-450 wpc . The 375 wpc amp sounds better at reference levels than a 100wpc AVR on those
but those are 87 db. @1w1m speakers so that is expected.

Otoh if they were K horns or La Scalas you get away with 100wpc easy even half of that or maybe less. some folks drive those with
S.E triode's wouldn't be my choice but if it works for them more power to them .
A Crown pro amp maybe an XLS 2000/ 2500 would work well with those RF7II's IMO. If the OP listens at reference levels or more ! Then if he has a big sub that's another reason to feed these the recommended power. Just my opinion FWIW.

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post #6 of 12 Old 10-08-2013, 04:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks all....@tube twister...forgot...yes an old KSW-10. Reading all the stats here and on the manufactures websites I might convert to the denon and consider a power amp for the fronts and center
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post #7 of 12 Old 10-08-2013, 11:34 AM
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At 100 W, 101 dB/W/m, 3 m away, a pair of speakers yields about 115 dB SPL. Seems more than enough to blow your ears off, especially in a small room (I did not include room gain so it's probably a little higher).

The speaker's power recommendation is a maximum, you do not need to have 250 W/ch. Unless you want to show off your big amp to people.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #8 of 12 Old 10-08-2013, 02:57 PM
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DonH50,

You might be right 115 db is decently loud or maybe at least ~200 wpc amp since they can handle 1000 watt peaks .

I'm just curious of the frequencies resulting at the 101dB 1w1m spec or the 100 W, 3 m 115 dB SPL result has that been verified or only calculated SPL could roll off a bit from 1 m to 3 m or not ? What about 6m ? no data on Klipsch website

In any event a 115dB SPL is still pretty loud so you are correct in the respect that obviously the woofers were contributing .

115 dB is below THX *peak reference* levels although pretty close , other concern is a 100WPC low end AVR overheating and or clipping at reference levels those Sony DG 820's usually aren't known for longevity . OTOH the 150wpc Denon may be fine by it self .

The 150 WPC Denon should provide a slightly superior although unimpressive normally inaudible result (at least power wise anyway) but may be much better and may otherwise sound better than the Sony in other respects ,Just not as much headroom as perhaps a crown XLR @ THX reference levels .
Crown XLS can almost double down in power when the speakers specifically the woofers dip in impedance where as the Dennon AVR can not do that If I were to drop a separate amp in the mix I would only use it for the L/R channels .

Having owned Altec model 19's and currently still owning EV sentry III studios both being speaker + horn designs I found the horns to be much more efficient than the woofers so because of that for me at least I prefer bi amping and either active or passive x over on a large horn speaker. Maybe a 100/200wpc combo . I notice klipsch provides bi amp connection option on the connector so I'm thinking they thought some customers may go that route also.

I would try the Denon by itself it might be just fine depending on room size listening use etc if I was going that way or get a less expensive one for surround and center and a Crown XLS for L/R fronts they have 115 - 125wpc Denons for much less.

Maybe a second or second and third powered sub for some distributed bass and to help smooth out the room response. and ofc room treatment.

OFC without knowing the environment hearing the speakers there on the various equipment mentioned or otherwise being an experienced professional engineer or other qualified expert in the audio visual industry I can only speculate as a consumer enthusiast.

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post #9 of 12 Old 10-08-2013, 05:19 PM
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Play a 115 dB tone (at your ears) and decide if it is "decently loud". But, I don't want to be in the room with you; I need my hearing (orchestra rehearsal tonight as a matter of fact).

We could speculate/debate the measurements all night, not worth it.

I thought THX spec'd 105 dB/speaker max at the listening position? Whatever, again not worth it.

The biggest sonic advantage of a newer AVR is IMO newer room correction, e.g. Audyssey XT32. Of course, you'll also get the latest codecs and such.

Gotta' run, all IMO, FWIWFM, etc. - Don (consumer, tech, design engr, broke dad)

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #10 of 12 Old 10-09-2013, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Play a 115 dB tone (at your ears) and decide if it is "decently loud". But, I don't want to be in the room with you; I need my hearing (orchestra rehearsal tonight as a matter of fact).

We could speculate/debate the measurements all night, not worth it.

I thought THX spec'd 105 dB/speaker max at the listening position? Whatever, again not worth it.

The biggest sonic advantage of a newer AVR is IMO newer room correction, e.g. Audyssey XT32. Of course, you'll also get the latest codecs and such.

Gotta' run, all IMO, FWIWFM, etc. - Don (consumer, tech, design engr, broke dad)


ofc I don't play 115dB "at my ears " 3m or 6m is another thing altogether and not knowing the woffers impedance curves *could be * another disadvantage of choosing an amplifier ?.

Ofc newer features and room corrections and codecs are an obvious advantage

I never claimed to be a professional expert or professional OTOH no need to be rude .

I would also think a klipsch likely would not have problem with a ~200 wpc amp on those speakers
not saying it is entirely necessary but it is nonetheless in the range of specifications .

The 150 wpc Dennon will probably be fine as well at the specified efficiency levels op could even run 50wpc
successfully maybe?



whatever

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Now the NSA/ DHS are in fact watching us with our computers cell phones surveillance cameras drones,satellites etc !
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post #11 of 12 Old 10-09-2013, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quakana View Post

Current setup (yea its old) is with Klipsch Synergy KSF 10.5 and matching center and rears. I bought them in 1998. I have a sony STR-DG820 (although I typically prefer yamaha receivers.

The 820 is rated at 100 watts

This whole thing started because i am looking at building a new Klipsch RF- speaker system using the RF-7ii's as fronts and started reading on how bigger receivers make speakers sound better

So I get into this spiral of buying speakers and then feeling I have to upgrade my receiver and such

So the main question is....the room is approx 14'x25' and I wonder if having all this wattage really makes a difference....meaning is going from the sony to lets say a Denon 4250CI or a yamaha RX-A3030 going to make a difference. Mainly I watch surround sound movies and TV on this setup so its my main home theatre system.

If the answer is yes it will make a difference, will I have to have the thing cranked to experience the difference?

I was thinking why not get it from the horses mouth if you will, maybe PM fellow member jdsmoothie of AVS science he is both an authorised Denon and Klipsch dealer and certainly is more knowledgeable than I am in these matters . he has a phone number to call him at when on line also and his dealer and website phone as well they are affiliated with AVS here it seems .

He would probably be able to recommend whatever you need to get the most out of your new speakers and maybe help out with your purchase as well and answer some questions maybe invite him into the discussion as well.
you can PM him here http://www.avsforum.com/u/7847949/jdsmoothie
here is the store http://shop.avscience.com/

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Now the NSA/ DHS are in fact watching us with our computers cell phones surveillance cameras drones,satellites etc !
...
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post #12 of 12 Old 10-09-2013, 07:32 AM
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Upgrading a receiver to get more power is normally pointless. Virtually all receivers are within 3db of each other in terms of the SPL their amplifiers can support. Furthermore you don't need any more power. Enjoy the system.
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