AVR-X4000 Config / No Bass - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 10-07-2013, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Greetings all - I'm looking for some help here:

I just got my X4000 and have it hooked up to 2 Definitive Technology RLS II speakers and a Powersound Audio XV30f subwoofer.

I've run Audyssey setup and here's the issue: I have very little bass and absolutely no punch. Sources are Apple TV and PS3. I've tried music and movie trailers from Apple TV as well as the 2'nd Shuttle launch on blu-ray IMAX: Hubble and am not getting any low end impact at all.

I have the crossover set to as high as possible on the sub itself, volume adjusted to the ideal 75db during Audyssey setup. I can tell the sub is working as it's producing sound, just not much of it. Audyssey on the Denon has set the sub level to -6db.

Thoughts? It seems like with this particular sub I should be shaking the walls...

FG
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post #2 of 15 Old 10-07-2013, 09:41 PM
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If you can, try setting the sub crossover to "Out" so that the AVR can control the crossover and see how that sounds. What sub do you have?
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post #3 of 15 Old 10-08-2013, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
I've run Audyssey setup and here's the issue: I have very little bass and absolutely no punch. Sources are Apple TV and PS3. I've tried music and movie trailers from Apple TV as well as the 2'nd Shuttle launch on blu-ray IMAX: Hubble and am not getting any low end impact at all.

I have the crossover set to as high as possible on the sub itself, volume adjusted to the ideal 75db during Audyssey setup. I can tell the sub is working as it's producing sound, just not much of it. Audyssey on the Denon has set the sub level to -6db.

Thoughts? It seems like with this particular sub I should be shaking the walls...

Set all the speakers to small with 80Hz crossover frequency for a start, subwoofer mode to LFE not LFE+Mains, LPF for LFE to 120Hz, raise sub trim level in the avr from -6 to 00 (feel free to raise it up till +3dB max), bypass crossover on the sub itself by maxing it out.

If bass is still weak; raise the gain knob on the back of the sub to 12 o clock position. Though it is not recommended to raise sub gain after Audyssey; but Audyssey is not a wizard. So check this out if every other thing fails. Report back your impressions.

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post #4 of 15 Old 10-08-2013, 03:22 AM
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Hi. I have had a similar ˇissueˇ with my Marantz SR 7008 (similar as your DENON), i too was lacking in bass. So i just raised the sub channel on AVR for 3 dbs and it is enough for my taste. And i also have front crossed at 60 and center and surround at 80 hz. Just do that and it will be ok. But i am curious as why your sub was calibrated to -6 db as you said it was a 75 dbs at start of audyssey...because my experiences are similar. my sub was set to -7 db despite having it calibrated at 75 bds at start...that is odd.
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post #5 of 15 Old 10-08-2013, 10:54 AM
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There does seem to be some mismatch between the Audyssey Sub level process and the final trim value, although readily worked around by simply lowering the Sub level value to about 70db instead of 75db which should bring the final trim value closer to 0db. Note that many new owners unfamiliar with Audyssey complain about the weak bass, not realizing they have grown accustomed to bloated bass common on older model receivers, rather than what the mixer intended you to hear. At the very least, leave it as is for 2-3 weeks to see if you can adjust to this "reference" bass level and if after that time you still prefer more bass, simply raise the Sub Level setting by 3-5db to suit your "preference."

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post #6 of 15 Old 10-08-2013, 11:15 AM
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Yes i totally agree with you but with my previous marantz sr 5004 with audyssey multeq i swear that the bass was louder, but that could be because i have bought with the new receiver also the new sub which is sealed (mirage omni S12 was replaced by SVS sb12 NSD) and i like the sound of the sub in the movies and especially with music better than previous (not boomy as before). But as far as the difference between the SR 5004 and SR 7008 is DAY and NIGHT. I could not belive how much better does the 7008 sound compare to sr 5004, the bass is so much powerfull the sound is fuller i mean literally the NIGHT and DAY-PURE DIRECT mode (the speakers are the same MONITOR AUDIO BX). I have just raised the sub for 3 dbs and it is enough for me because i watch movies at evenings and at the lower level because the kid is sleeping so the sub must be a little hot, but without raising the sub trim level i could live with it but i think i would have to watch movies at least in the range around -15 db from reference.
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post #7 of 15 Old 10-08-2013, 06:32 PM
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Keep in mind that your 7008 features Audyssey LFC which can help to reduce the lower frequencies passing through the walls especially for your late night viewing without having to lower the master volume level. Really works too! smile.gif

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post #8 of 15 Old 10-08-2013, 11:17 PM
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I havent try that yet but i will...but i am also sure that when my wife will heard the loud booms from sub that that moment i will have to turn it down despite audyssey LFC smile.gif so that is why i havent tried it yet biggrin.gif
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post #9 of 15 Old 10-09-2013, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

There does seem to be some mismatch between the Audyssey Sub level process and the final trim value, although readily worked around by simply lowering the Sub level value to about 70db instead of 75db which should bring the final trim value closer to 0db. Note that many new owners unfamiliar with Audyssey complain about the weak bass, not realizing they have grown accustomed to bloated bass common on older model receivers, rather than what the mixer intended you to hear. At the very least, leave it as is for 2-3 weeks to see if you can adjust to this "reference" bass level and if after that time you still prefer more bass, simply raise the Sub Level setting by 3-5db to suit your "preference."

Absolutely true. When I set my Hsu subs to about 72db on the Audyssey mic at start of calibration, which is less than 25% or under 9-o-clock on the Hsu sub volume control for either sub, Audyssey on the X4000 sets my subs to -6.5 to -8db. According to advice from one of the Hsu's himself, you want to try to get closer to -3db or better to decrease risk of the sub not turning on at very low volumes. I suppose room gain has a lot to do with this. My bass sounds great though no matter if it gets set by Audyssey to -8db or -3db.
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post #10 of 15 Old 10-09-2013, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks all - setting my crossover levels on the Denon definitely made an improvement - I haven't however tried adjusting the gain on the sub prior to re-running Audyssey yet.

I do have a question... When setting the crossovers, speaker sizes, etc., are these settings overwritten by Audyssey, or does Audyssey do it's calibration using those settings? In other words, which should I do first, run Audyssey and then adjust, or adjust and then run Audyssey?

Thanks again!

FG
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post #11 of 15 Old 10-09-2013, 11:31 AM
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Run Audyssey and then adjust.

Audyssey's calibration process ignores all of the manual settings. Then the receiver's separate firmware sets the initial crossovers and Large/Small settings. Then you change them to satisfy your preferences.

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post #12 of 15 Old 10-09-2013, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
... with my previous marantz sr 5004 with audyssey multeq i swear that the bass was louder ...
You're not alone. I went...
- from a Marantz SR6003 (MultEQ) and one Dayton SA1000 amp powering dual 18" ChaseHT passive subs,
- to a Denon AVR-X4000 (MultEQ XT32 w/ Sub EQ HT) and two Dayton SA1000 amps, each powering a single 18" ChaseHT passive sub,
...and I noticed a decrease in bass.

With both AVRs, the FR curve I measured with my OmnMic was flat (+/-3dB) from ~17Hz to crossover (80Hz), but while I ran the Marantz only 3dB hot to get satisfactory output at my LP, I have to run the Denon ~8dB hot to get comparable output from the subs.

Needless to say, I'm a little bit disappointed by this.
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post #13 of 15 Old 10-09-2013, 12:33 PM
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Of course, one must also take into account any changes in the room and/or subwoofer placement, as well as the pattern of microphone placement that was used. Some people have reported that if they aren't very careful to place the microphone in exactly the same positions every time, they can get significantly different calibration results.

If you haven't already, please spend the time to read through the Audyssey 101/FAQ elsewhere on the forum. The instructions in the receiver's manual are woefully inadequate. http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750#post_21782993

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post #14 of 15 Old 10-09-2013, 12:53 PM
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Fair enough, but I've run MultEQ numerous times and - with the mic placed in essentially the same six positions and at a tape-measured height of ~39" - I've gotten essentially the same results every time.

The only things that have changed are:
- the receiver (better version of Audyssey + Sub EQ HT);
- two additional measuring positions for XT32; and
- the second sub amp (marginal increase in power).

To date, I've run XT32 twice and gotten essentially the same results. They just happen to be different from those I got with MultEQ and, both times, the bass seemed weaker, even though the FR curve was fairly flat (just as it was with MultEQ).

On the plus side, I will say that I find that XT32 has done a better job with the speakers than MultEQ did. That little bit of excessive "brightness" that I occasionally noticed at higher volumes is gone. I would almost say the sound is a bit smoother - maybe even a bit "mellower" - overall. Nice. smile.gif
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post #15 of 15 Old 10-09-2013, 01:35 PM
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Yes i agree the overall sound is far better than with multEQ but it is lacking in bass as we discovered....we just have to listen for few months with xt32 settings to get accustomed with it...but i find myself everyday punching my remote and changing setting...more bass or less bass or 80 hz crossover or 60 hz crossover or...you get the point smile.gif i just need to leave all as it is because the sound is good and enjoy the sound with audyssey xt32...and the one more thing i have noticed...with sr5004 my trim levels from speakers were around -8 to -9 db for front and -5 to -6 for rears but with sr 7008 despite being more powerful the trims are for front -5 and rears -4...the same speakers the exact same location...but overall the sound is much more powerful with sr7008...odd
good night and good day for all you that have a half a day left smile.gif
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