Question re DTS-MS on Pioneer VSX-1121 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 20 Old 10-19-2013, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
jontyrees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 559
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 38
So I have my Panasonic BDP connected to my VSX-1121 via HDMI, the disc audio options set to DTS-MA 7.1, and the VSX-1121 set to Auto Surround. But the receiver display just show "Stereo" when I try to play a BD - Prometheus in this case. Seems like sound is coming from all 7.1 speakers, but shouldn't the display say "DTS-MA 7.1" or similar? I can also select Direct instead of Auto Surround, and some other options, ALC maybe? There is another button on the remote that allows me to select some differnt PLIIx, and other options, NEO, etc. Argh - I'm lost - what should I set the reciver to to get the DTS-MA 7.1 soundtrack?
jontyrees is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 20 Old 10-19-2013, 04:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Legairre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Make sure your BD player is set to Bitstream in the setup menu. Sounds like it's only outputting stereo to the Pioneer.

"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"

Legairre is online now  
post #3 of 20 Old 10-19-2013, 04:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JChin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Mesquite Tx
Posts: 8,514
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontyrees View Post

So I have my Panasonic BDP connected to my VSX-1121 via HDMI, the disc audio options set to DTS-MA 7.1, and the VSX-1121 set to Auto Surround. But the receiver display just show "Stereo" when I try to play a BD - Prometheus in this case. Seems like sound is coming from all 7.1 speakers, but shouldn't the display say "DTS-MA 7.1" or similar?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

Make sure your BD player is set to Bitstream in the setup menu. Sounds like it's only outputting stereo to the Pioneer.

Hi jontyrees, as Legairre posted set the Panasonic BD player HDMI Audio Output to Bitstream and also set Secondary Audio to Off.
JChin is offline  
post #4 of 20 Old 10-19-2013, 11:05 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
jontyrees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 559
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 38
I set the BDP secondary audio to Off, and the output is Bitstream, but still, when I select Auto Surround, or Optimum Surround, or ALC,on the receiver, the display says Stereo.

I've had the receiver for a year or two, but only just got a 1080p tv, so I haven't been using Bluerays before. Hence I don't really know what to select on the receiver to get the best audio. Seems like it shouldn't be this difficult. Am I doing somthing wrong here? Shouldn't Auto Surround use the DTS-MA that I've selected on the BD audio options?
jontyrees is offline  
post #5 of 20 Old 10-19-2013, 11:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 127
Try disabling the HDMI audio output from the AVR to the TV. TVs are stereo devices and sometimes the HDMI handshake will override the player output settings, resulting in stereo instead of multichannel.
BIslander is online now  
post #6 of 20 Old 10-20-2013, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
jontyrees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 559
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

Try disabling the HDMI audio output from the AVR to the TV. TVs are stereo devices and sometimes the HDMI handshake will override the player output settings, resulting in stereo instead of multichannel.

The HDMI out port on my receiver got killed by lightning a few weeks ago, so I'm having to take the signal from the BDP to the TV for video, and the receiver for audio. My BDP has only one hdmi port, so I'm using a powered hdmi splitter to send to receiver and tv separately. I wonder if the hdmi connection to the tv is causing the audio sent to the receiver to be stereo?
jontyrees is offline  
post #7 of 20 Old 10-20-2013, 11:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
BIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 127
Yes, that is quite likely. Why not use an optical or coax audio connection instead of HDMI? If the HDMI audio handshake with the TV also forces the optical and coax outputs to stereo, simply turn off the player's HDMI audio output.
BIslander is online now  
post #8 of 20 Old 10-20-2013, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
jontyrees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 559
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 38
I had the BDP sending audio over optical while I was waiting for the hdmi splitter to arrive, but optical won't carry the lossless formats - DTS MA and Dolby True HD, so I wouldn't be getting the latest greatest sound. Question is, are those formats THAT much improved over say DTS ES, or Dolby Digital EX. Which are the best formats that can run over Optical Digital?

Slightly off topic, but anyone know how difficult and how expensive it would be to repair the hdmi out from my VSX-1121-k? I really like the sound from the receiver, and I'm very reluctant to replace it and relegate it to duy in another room.
jontyrees is offline  
post #9 of 20 Old 10-20-2013, 12:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Legairre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontyrees View Post

The HDMI out port on my receiver got killed by lightning a few weeks ago, so I'm having to take the signal from the BDP to the TV for video, and the receiver for audio. My BDP has only one hdmi port, so I'm using a powered hdmi splitter to send to receiver and tv separately. I wonder if the hdmi connection to the tv is causing the audio sent to the receiver to be stereo?
If your using a splitter try switching the video HDMI with the audio HDMI out of the splitter. Many splitters only do stereo out one side if your doing multichannel out the other side.

"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"

Legairre is online now  
post #10 of 20 Old 10-20-2013, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
jontyrees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 559
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

If your using a splitter try switching the video HDMI with the audio HDMI out of the splitter. Many splitters only do stereo out one side if your doing multichannel out the other side.

Thanks, I'll try that. Although wouldn't I still be in the same position, only with the outputs reversed?

For now I have flipped to another input to the receiver, using optical digital. There's another slew of choices there too, and I'm trying (I think) THX on DTS ES. Too many choices. There were lots of Dolby PLII choices with different Front Surround high, wide, etc, all with and without THX. What does THX bring to the party?
It's a button way to the right on the receiver itself - I don't know where it is on the remote.
jontyrees is offline  
post #11 of 20 Old 10-20-2013, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
jontyrees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 559
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontyrees View Post

Thanks, I'll try that. Although wouldn't I still be in the same position, only with the outputs reversed?

For now I have flipped to another input to the receiver, using optical digital. There's another slew of choices there too, and I'm trying (I think) THX on DTS ES. Too many choices. There were lots of Dolby PLII choices with different Front Surround high, wide, etc, all with and without THX. What does THX bring to the party?
It's a button way to the right on the receiver itself - I don't know where it is on the remote.

Actually, I had it on THX Surround EX. Sounded good. Right next to that in the choices was PLIIx MV +THX - that sounded good too. Still not seeing any DTS MA or Dolby True HD though - still Stereo on the HDMI input, even after switching the cables on the splitter. I depowered the splitter to flip them btw - maybe I should have left it powered so it would do something different?

I'm beginning to think this isn't going to happen, so the decision will be new receiver if I want DTS MA or Dolby True HD, or just live with the choices I have.

Cheers, thanks fo the suggestions
jontyrees is offline  
post #12 of 20 Old 10-20-2013, 03:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 127
Yes, if you want lossless, then you have to use HDMI (unless both your player and receiver support multichannel analog). But, the lossy outputs on Blu-ray use high bitrates and rival lossless in quality, although you don't get native 7.1. So, you aren't losing much in the way of quality with optical and it would be the way to go if you are stuck with stereo using the HDMI splitter. You can apply a mode like PLIIx in your receiver to expand 5.1 sources to 7.1.

The problem is almost certainly the handshake with the TV, which tells the player to send stereo instead of multichannel. Another option is to use component video to the TV, if your set and player both support analog.
BIslander is online now  
post #13 of 20 Old 10-20-2013, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
jontyrees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 559
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

Yes, if you want lossless, then you have to use HDMI (unless both your player and receiver support multichannel analog). But, the lossy outputs on Blu-ray use high bitrates and rival lossless in quality, although you don't get native 7.1. So, you aren't losing much in the way of quality with optical and it would be the way to go if you are stuck with stereo using the HDMI splitter. You can apply a mode like PLIIx in your receiver to expand 5.1 sources to 7.1.

The problem is almost certainly the handshake with the TV, which tells the player to send stereo instead of multichannel. Another option is to use component video to the TV, if your set and player both support analog.

Thanks. If the formats available through Optical are close to DTS MA or True HD, I'll most likely just live with it. Which are the best of the lossy signals? Also, what are the THX options over to the right of the receiver front panel - it's labelled Home THX. Seems to fill out the sound, certainly makes it louder, and it can be applied to several of the other formats, (is that what these things are called?) - like PLIIx, DTS Neo, etc

My BDP doesn't have 7 ch analog outputs. The component video solution isn't good either, as I'd be unable to show BD in 1080p, and I JUST got a new TV as an upgrade from my old 720p set. I think Optical is the way to go for now - my speakers, while they sound fine to me are a bit of a frankenstein setup - two ancient 1970's large Infinity's for Front, a large Cerwin Vega Center Channel from about 1999, pretty large JBLs for side surround and some JBL bookshelves for rear surround - plus a large canadian 15" sub, to which I added a replacement 250w plate amp from Parts Express. I think Optical will be fine.
jontyrees is offline  
post #14 of 20 Old 10-20-2013, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
jontyrees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 559
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 38
I'm still in the dark on what the Home THX options are doing. I need to dig out the manual, but they seem to layer on top of the selection of audio format.
jontyrees is offline  
post #15 of 20 Old 10-20-2013, 11:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 127
Video - component supports 1080i, which is still "full HD". Your player will interlace the output to produce 1080i and your TV will deinterlace it back to the exact same 1080p as the original source. The only issue is whether video degrades at all going through the interlace/deinterlace processing. Probably not. But you have to try it to see.

Audio - for the most part, there's no reason to use most of the effects modes on your receiver. I suggest that you play multichannel soundtracks as they were recorded and use PLIIx for expanding 5.1 to 7.1.
BIslander is online now  
post #16 of 20 Old 10-21-2013, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
jontyrees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 559
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

Video - component supports 1080i, which is still "full HD". Your player will interlace the output to produce 1080i and your TV will deinterlace it back to the exact same 1080p as the original source. The only issue is whether video degrades at all going through the interlace/deinterlace processing. Probably not. But you have to try it to see.

Audio - for the most part, there's no reason to use most of the effects modes on your receiver. I suggest that you play multichannel soundtracks as they were recorded and use PLIIx for expanding 5.1 to 7.1.

Thanks, but I don't think many would suggest that blueray video on a 1080p plasma over component will be as good as blueray video over hdmi on that same TV.
jontyrees is offline  
post #17 of 20 Old 10-21-2013, 07:31 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,554
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 166 Post(s)
Liked: 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontyrees View Post

I'm still in the dark on what the Home THX options are doing. I need to dig out the manual, but they seem to layer on top of the selection of audio format.

http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-technology/thx-surround-sound-modes/

this is what THX surround processing is all about smile.gif

it includes their technologies - ASA for back speakers, Boundary Gain Compensation for THX Ultra 2 certified subwoofers, Re-EQ, Timbre Matching, Adaptive Correlation.
http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-technology/thx-av-receiver-features/

you can read descriptions on their website.

some like the effect of adding THX, some don't. I'm in the "don't" category wink.gif nearly all receiver mfgs have dropped THX processing & certification, except Pioneer & Onkyo. many find it irrelevant nowadays with hi-rez audio formats. I'm also in this camp wink.gif THX had a lot of relevance enhancing std Dolby Digital on DVDs but not so much for Blu-rays, although there are still some who prefer to add it on top of DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD.

but some do like it's effect. it's biggest impacts are a gentle rolling off of high frequencies for the home cinema market to "better" match a large cinema venue, and the effect on the surrounds, which is to blend the sides and rears in a way to make them more diffuse, and supposedly seamless. however, the blending can actually reduce the discrete localization of surrounds. keep in mind that THX certified speakers and many surround speakers from speaker mfgs are dipolar and designed to spray the surrounds so it is intentionally diffuse. some don't like that effect and prefer a more discrete surround effect & just use Dolby ProLogic IIx or DTS Neo.

THX Surround EX was developed in conjunction with Dolby for their Dolby EX...same thing but with THX post processing. EX is only monophonic surround even if you have 2 rear speakers, compared to PLIIx, which derives stereo rear surround channels from the 2 side channels. you are have true 7.1 discs, then you will have 2 stereo rears by the track itself. but if you are playing 5.1 tracks, adding Surround EX (THX or Dolby) sums the rears into the same sound, while IIx preserves some side to side separation between the 2 rears. EX mode was mostly for playing Dolby EX encoded tracks on DVD's, pre-Blu-ray era, while DTS-ES Matrix was DTS's version for DVD's, pre-Blu-ray.

Hope this helps.

After you read about THX processing, try them out, see if you prefer THX or just PLIIx or Neo X.

Steve
ss9001 is online now  
post #18 of 20 Old 10-21-2013, 08:12 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,554
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 166 Post(s)
Liked: 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontyrees View Post

I'm lost - what should I set the reciver to to get the DTS-MA 7.1 soundtrack?

if you want ONLY the 7.1 track with no extra channel processing added (deriving height channels for example) just select Direct mode with the remote. Auto Surround will give you all the post processing options like PLIIx, EX, etc.

Optimum Surround is kind of interesting, I can't say specifically what it does but on some 5.1 tracks or older DVD's with just plain Dolby Surround, it seemed to enhance side to side separation in my room with my speakers. you might like the effect or might not...it is subtle.

but to play any soundtrack, exactly the way it's on the disc, 1.0 mono, 2.0 stereo, 5.1, 7.1, but retain your MCACC calibrations, use Direct. Pure Direct is same but turns off MCACC and other processing.

Steve
ss9001 is online now  
post #19 of 20 Old 10-21-2013, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
jontyrees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 559
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-technology/thx-surround-sound-modes/

this is what THX surround processing is all about smile.gif

it includes their technologies - ASA for back speakers, Boundary Gain Compensation for THX Ultra 2 certified subwoofers, Re-EQ, Timbre Matching, Adaptive Correlation.
http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-technology/thx-av-receiver-features/

you can read descriptions on their website.

some like the effect of adding THX, some don't. I'm in the "don't" category wink.gif nearly all receiver mfgs have dropped THX processing & certification, except Pioneer & Onkyo. many find it irrelevant nowadays with hi-rez audio formats. I'm also in this camp wink.gif THX had a lot of relevance enhancing std Dolby Digital on DVDs but not so much for Blu-rays, although there are still some who prefer to add it on top of DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD.

but some do like it's effect. it's biggest impacts are a gentle rolling off of high frequencies for the home cinema market to "better" match a large cinema venue, and the effect on the surrounds, which is to blend the sides and rears in a way to make them more diffuse, and supposedly seamless. however, the blending can actually reduce the discrete localization of surrounds. keep in mind that THX certified speakers and many surround speakers from speaker mfgs are dipolar and designed to spray the surrounds so it is intentionally diffuse. some don't like that effect and prefer a more discrete surround effect & just use Dolby ProLogic IIx or DTS Neo.

THX Surround EX was developed in conjunction with Dolby for their Dolby EX...same thing but with THX post processing. EX is only monophonic surround even if you have 2 rear speakers, compared to PLIIx, which derives stereo rear surround channels from the 2 side channels. you are have true 7.1 discs, then you will have 2 stereo rears by the track itself. but if you are playing 5.1 tracks, adding Surround EX (THX or Dolby) sums the rears into the same sound, while IIx preserves some side to side separation between the 2 rears. EX mode was mostly for playing Dolby EX encoded tracks on DVD's, pre-Blu-ray era, while DTS-ES Matrix was DTS's version for DVD's, pre-Blu-ray.

Hope this helps.

After you read about THX processing, try them out, see if you prefer THX or just PLIIx or Neo X.
Thanks - this is hugely helpful. I've gleaned some of the same info from other sources, but this sums it nicely.

Unfortunately, it seems that I can't get both 1080p to the TV and the lossless audio versions to my receiver at the same time, (dead hdmi out on receiver, splitter from BDP will only send Stereo to receiver). Since I appear to be stuck with optical digital to the recveiver, I'll probably use the THX post processing on top of either the DD or DTS tracks on the BD. I've asked this question elsewhere, but how much will I realistically be giving up by using the base 5.1 track over optical, with some processing added vs DTS MA or True HD? My other options are repair the HDMI out on my current receiver, or get a new one, neither of which fill me with joy.
jontyrees is offline  
post #20 of 20 Old 10-21-2013, 08:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontyrees View Post

Thanks, but I don't think many would suggest that blueray video on a 1080p plasma over component will be as good as blueray video over hdmi on that same TV.
Given your situation, it seems like component would be worth a try. You may discover it looks just as good as HDMI. And then you could get lossless audio using HDMI to the receiver. But, you'll get great audio over optical as well.
BIslander is online now  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Pioneer Vsx 1121 K 7 1 Home Theater Receiver Glossy Black

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off