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Old 11-01-2013, 06:13 AM
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I've had Denon, Yamaha and currently a Pioneer SC65 as my AVR. They are all good and each has their advantages.

But the real difference I noticed in my HT setup is when I used my SC65 as a "Pre-Amp" and added a Wyred4Sound MMC-7 amplifier (7 X 221 wpc, Class D, discrete multi-mono blocks).

Absolutely fabulous. Three words - - separation, separation, separation. Add to that, power and clarity - - and you get the picture. My Paradigm speakers have never sounded better. I can listen at lower volumes and still hear everything clearly.

Music is fantastic (especially multi-channel SACD's) and Bluray soundtracks come to life.

This is my best recommendation - - if you can swing separates - - you will hear a profound difference, IMHO. (Example: Outlaw 975 - 7.1 channels @ $549 with a Wyred4Sound MMC-7 amplifier @ $2,395. Or any other amplifier configuration that works for you - Emotiva, Anthem, etc.)

That being said, there are a couple very educated members in the AVS community who will tell you that power makes no difference and that separates are not needed and that 50 watts per channel is sufficient.

Let your ears be the judge - - and whatever you decide, enjoy what you buy. That's what the AVS Forums are all about - - getting the most out of your equipment and learning from other AVS members.

Best - Rico

Home Theater Setup
Samsung UN65ES8000 LCD/LED
BenQ W1080ST Projector
Pioneer SC65 (Pre-Amp)
Wyred4Sound MMC-7 Channel Amplifier, 221wpc
OPPO 103, Directv GENIE
Darbee Darblet
ALL Paradigm - 7.1 - Studio 60's, V.2 (FL/FR)
CC-690, V.5 (C)
ADP 590 V.5 (SS)
MilleniaOne 2.0 (BS) - Velodyne 810 Sub
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post

That being said, there are a couple very educated members in the AVS community who will tell you that power makes no difference and that separates are not needed and that 50 watts per channel is sufficient.

I think you are leaving a bit of information out of the above part of your post. That is that some of those "educated members" might have stated that 50 wpc is sufficient if you have efficient speakers and that they are driven to volumes you require without clipping or distortion. If that is not true then I'm sure those "educated members" would suggest more power be it a more powerful AVR or adding an external amp. There are many variables in play as far as the required power needed in ones system. No two systems are alike wink.gif.

Bill

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

Emotiva XMC-1, Rogue Audio Perseus Magnum, Wyred 4 Sound SX-500s, ST-500, ST-250, Oppo BDP-105D, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk 1801-TLs, Salk 1801b center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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Old 11-01-2013, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I think you are leaving a bit of information out of the above part of your post. That is that some of those "educated members" might have stated that 50 wpc is sufficient if you have efficient speakers and that they are driven to volumes you require without clipping or distortion. If that is not true then I'm sure those "educated members" would suggest more power be it a more powerful AVR or adding an external amp. There are many variables in play as far as the required power needed in ones system. No two systems are alike wink.gif.

Bill

Yes and no. First part, I can agree with your comments. Second part (and I believe you know who I am referring to) the statement was, for all intent purposes, that an AVR is fine, by itself, and separates are really not needed. (Whole closet full of them)

That may be true for some people (AVR standalone will work fine) - - but from my personal experience having both configurations (standalone AVR and AVR/Sound Processor with an external amplifier) - - the external amplifier really made a huge difference in power, clarity and more importantly - - separation.

Again, my only experience is with a Class D (Wyred4Sound) multi-mono block design (separate, discrete power for each channel from input to output) and the results are outstanding.

So my main point is that a standalone AVR will work for many folks, power wise - - but if you'd like to take it to another level, try separates. No two systems are alike but there is a distinct difference in sound comparing a standalone AVR with an AVR/Sound Processor with an external power source. In my case, I kept my AVR (Pioneer SC65) and am using it as a "Pre-Amp."

Home Theater Setup
Samsung UN65ES8000 LCD/LED
BenQ W1080ST Projector
Pioneer SC65 (Pre-Amp)
Wyred4Sound MMC-7 Channel Amplifier, 221wpc
OPPO 103, Directv GENIE
Darbee Darblet
ALL Paradigm - 7.1 - Studio 60's, V.2 (FL/FR)
CC-690, V.5 (C)
ADP 590 V.5 (SS)
MilleniaOne 2.0 (BS) - Velodyne 810 Sub
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Old 11-01-2013, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
So my main point is that a standalone AVR will work for many folks, power wise - - but if you'd like to take it to another level, try separates. 

Interesting, I keep going back and forth on this issue. A few months ago I almost pulled the trigger on an Emotiva XPA 5 and XPA2 (I run a 7.2 system). I had been researching about the benefits of moving from using my AVR for everything to just using it as a pre/pro and using the Emotivas to power the speakers. Then I ran across a few posts from people who had tried both ways and saying they really didn't notice a difference. So I put those purchases on the back burner but I still haven't ruled them out. Now I see this and it has me thinking about separates again. And Emotiva even has a sale going on. Will this madness never stop? :rolleyes:

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Old 11-01-2013, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

Interesting, I keep going back and forth on this issue. A few months ago I almost pulled the trigger on an Emotiva XPA 5 and XPA2 (I run a 7.2 system). I had been researching about the benefits of moving from using my AVR for everything to just using it as a pre/pro and using the Emotivas to power the speakers. Then I ran across a few posts from people who had tried both ways and saying they really didn't notice a difference. So I put those purchases on the back burner but I still haven't ruled them out. Now I see this and it has me thinking about separates again. And Emotiva even has a sale going on. Will this madness never stop? rolleyes.gif

There are a lot of Emotiva fans out there. They have a very loyal base. With the configuration you are mentioning (XPA 5 & XPA 2) you could have the best of both worlds. Emotiva fans chime in here - - but couldn't you use the XPA 2 for two channel music (great power!) and then configure the XPA 5 with the XPA 2 for 7.1 (7.2) Bluray soundtrack movies? Or some other configuration that works best for Emotiva amplifiers?

Due to space considerations (and weight) I decided on a Class D amplifier - - separate. The Pioneer SC65 is also a Class D design but the MMC-7 from Wyred4Sound was only $2,395 and it is a full seven channels. Smaller footprint and it only weighs 25 pounds compared to the other amplifiers - - so it fits easily on my rack. Plus - - no worries about existing electrical capacity - - i.e., no need for a 20 amp circuit.

I am not sure of the efficiency rating of the Emotiva amps. I also do not believe that they are a multi-mono block design (each channel having its own, separate, dedicated power source.) But I believe you will hear a difference between a standalone AVR and a separate configuration like you've mentioned. If you can get a good return policy - - then that would be worth it's weight in gold. If you're not happy - - ship it back. Sure, you might have to pay shipping charges but you'll minimize your risk.

Home Theater Setup
Samsung UN65ES8000 LCD/LED
BenQ W1080ST Projector
Pioneer SC65 (Pre-Amp)
Wyred4Sound MMC-7 Channel Amplifier, 221wpc
OPPO 103, Directv GENIE
Darbee Darblet
ALL Paradigm - 7.1 - Studio 60's, V.2 (FL/FR)
CC-690, V.5 (C)
ADP 590 V.5 (SS)
MilleniaOne 2.0 (BS) - Velodyne 810 Sub
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Old 11-01-2013, 03:08 PM
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^ Good points. I had never heard of wyred4sound until I saw your post. I checked out their website. I knew Class D was smaller and lighter but 25 pounds for a 7 channel amp? Wow. 

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Old 11-01-2013, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post

Yes and no. First part, I can agree with your comments. Second part (and I believe you know who I am referring to) the statement was, for all intent purposes, that an AVR is fine, by itself, and separates are really not needed. (Whole closet full of them)

That may be true for some people (AVR standalone will work fine) - - but from my personal experience having both configurations (standalone AVR and AVR/Sound Processor with an external amplifier) - - the external amplifier really made a huge difference in power, clarity and more importantly - - separation.

Again, my only experience is with a Class D (Wyred4Sound) multi-mono block design (separate, discrete power for each channel from input to output) and the results are outstanding.

So my main point is that a standalone AVR will work for many folks, power wise - - but if you'd like to take it to another level, try separates. No two systems are alike but there is a distinct difference in sound comparing a standalone AVR with an AVR/Sound Processor with an external power source. In my case, I kept my AVR (Pioneer SC65) and am using it as a "Pre-Amp."

I agree with you as far as having an external amp as I use one with my 4311. I bought the 4311 to use as a prepro so I've never used it without my amp. But I have several friends that have the 4311 that do not use an external amp and they are very happy with the power output.

I can say without a doubt the W4S amps are excellent. I have a friend that has three SX 500 mono blocks for his LCR speakers and they crank!

Bill

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

Emotiva XMC-1, Rogue Audio Perseus Magnum, Wyred 4 Sound SX-500s, ST-500, ST-250, Oppo BDP-105D, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk 1801-TLs, Salk 1801b center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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Old 11-19-2013, 09:38 AM
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I'm also considering a new AVR as my Yamaha rx-v1700 is showing its age (hdmi inputs, no 3d pass, deciding, etc.). Leaning toward the 3030.

BTW, I added a XPA-5 over the summer to run off the 1700 as a pre. I didn't notice any difference in sound between the 1700's amps v the XPA-5. Paradigm 100/690 setup.
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Old 11-19-2013, 10:25 AM
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Crutchfield has the 4311 back in stock for a very good price.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_033AV4311C/Denon-AVR-4311CI.html

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Old 12-20-2013, 10:57 AM
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I got a Denon 4520ci through best buy a few months back for $1800 brand new. Its been an awesome addition to my setup and now im using the dual sub EQ feature. The audyssey XT32 has done a superb job in sound quality and room corrections!




80 in Sharp Aquos Quattron led 3d tv
Denon AVR-4520CI receiver DBT-3313UDCI blu ray player
Klipsch RF-82 II, RC-62 II, RS-62 II
Dual PSA Triaxes!
Xbox one, xbox 360 My Videos! >
Christmas Surprise! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJcmWTpBcm0
Triax! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhoKuxirdIg
http://...
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Old 12-20-2013, 11:00 AM
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Not saying its the best but im getting alot of performance and capabilities for what I paid

80 in Sharp Aquos Quattron led 3d tv
Denon AVR-4520CI receiver DBT-3313UDCI blu ray player
Klipsch RF-82 II, RC-62 II, RS-62 II
Dual PSA Triaxes!
Xbox one, xbox 360 My Videos! >
Christmas Surprise! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJcmWTpBcm0
Triax! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhoKuxirdIg
http://...
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Cambridge Audio Azur 751r Black , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Marantz Sr7008 , Yamaha Rx V363 Receiver , Yamaha Rx V3900bl Receiver , Onkyo Tx Nr809 , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Yamaha Rxa3030bl Aventage Home Theater Receiver , Pioneer Sc 79 , Pioneer Elite Sc77 Receiver
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