Yamaha RX-V461-> Onkyo 616 : Will I get music improvement? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 10-29-2013, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm running an old Yamaha V461 with Mordaunt Short Premiere Speakers:-
902i front (instead of 302s)
304C center
302s rear
308w woofer

I'm tempted to upgrade to an Onyko 616 mainly to improve music. I'm hoping the Onkyo will give a better performance with music than my Yamaha, making better use of the 902 front speakers as I'll be able to bi-wire them?

I find the music reproduction on the Yamaha a little "flat" and "lifeless", so will the Onkyo give a better performance? Or will I just be wasting my money?

ps: I'm comparing music to when it's played back via a 20+ year old Sony mini-hifi system which is bi-amped.


Anyone able to help? Thanks!
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post #2 of 20 Old 10-29-2013, 10:16 AM
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You won't get any improvement in sound quality but you may get a reduction in reliability.
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post #3 of 20 Old 10-29-2013, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

You won't get any improvement in sound quality but you may get a reduction in reliability.

Hmmm... Is that sarcasm or genuine knowledge?

Are you sure the Onkyo wouldn't maybe give a better music reproduction given a more modern processor, and bi-wired speakers?
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post #4 of 20 Old 10-29-2013, 10:55 AM
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Bi-wring is worthless.

maybe you'll prefer the Audyssey room correction of the Onkyo over the YPAO of the Yamaha.
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You won't get any improvement in sound quality but you may get a reduction in reliability.

That's based on all the complaints of the Onkyo HDMI failures on this forum. Yamaha seems to be more reliable.

Can you order/purchase the Onkyo 616 from a place that will let you return if there is no sound improvement?

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post #5 of 20 Old 10-29-2013, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

Bi-wring is worthless.
I thought you could in effect bi-amp the speakers? ie: Instead of 7.1 use the amp in 5.1 mode to bi-amp the front speakers? If it's worthless why create bi-wire speakers and bi-amp'ing amps?

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Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

maybe you'll prefer the Audyssey room correction of the Onkyo over the YPAO of the Yamaha.
Doesn't that just set speaker volumes/delays?

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Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

Can you order/purchase the Onkyo 616 from a place that will let you return if there is no sound improvement?
Never done that before... But I guess any order via the internet allows for that doesn't it?
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post #6 of 20 Old 10-29-2013, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilF View Post

I thought you could in effect bi-amp the speakers? ie: Instead of 7.1 use the amp in 5.1 mode to bi-amp the front speakers? If it's worthless why create bi-wire speakers and bi-amp'ing amps?
Doesn't that just set speaker volumes/delays?
Never done that before... But I guess any order via the internet allows for that doesn't it?
'

You did not say bi amp in that earlier post, you said "bi wired". Those are completely different procedures. Bi-amping has dubious value too, especially passive bi-amping which you would be doing with a receiver. Most people don't notice a difference when bi-amping but try it for yourself to satisfy your curiousity.
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Are you sure the Onkyo wouldn't maybe give a better music reproduction given a more modern processor, and bi-wired speakers?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430267/biwiring-vs-biamping

http://www.axiomaudio.com/tips_biwiring_and_biamping

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post #7 of 20 Old 10-29-2013, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

'

You did not say bi amp in that earlier post, you said "bi wired". Those are completely different procedures. Bi-amping has dubious value too, especially passive bi-amping which you would be doing with a receiver. Most people don't notice a difference when bi-amping but try it for yourself to satisfy your curiousity.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430267/biwiring-vs-biamping

http://www.axiomaudio.com/tips_biwiring_and_biamping

My bad! Ibelieve it will be bi-amped from the Onkyo to the speakers...

But the question still remains, would the Onkyo give better music reproduction that the somewhat "flat" performance of my Yamaha?
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post #8 of 20 Old 10-29-2013, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by NeilF View Post

Doesn't that just set speaker volumes/delays?

YPAO will also EQ the speakers.

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I find the music reproduction on the Yamaha a little "flat" and "lifeless"

I would suggest going into the configuration settings and turn EQ off and then see what you think.

Also in 'Sound Setup' set dynamic range to max and in 'Function Setup' > 'Volume' set adaptive DRC to off.
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post #9 of 20 Old 10-29-2013, 02:02 PM
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I can speak from personal experience that Onkyos are a roll of the dice. Sometimes you win, sometimes you may lose. I had one cut out on me after four or five years, just stopped working. Some might say that's a pretty good life span for an AVR but not me. A good friend of mine purchased the 606 and the HDMI card died after 18 months. He sent it in (still under warranty) and got if fixed only to have the new HDMI die in 6 weeks. Sent it in again and as of right now its still working and working very well.

 

I got the Onkyo 809 after my first Onkyo died but I sold it after two years (at which point it was still working fine) and replaced it with a Denon 3313CI which IMO has better SQ. After seeing what happened to my friend I decided to try something else.

 

Onkyo gives you a lot of bells and whistles and good power at a nice price and if they don't fail they are a good AVR, but it is a roll of the dice as I have learned.

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post #10 of 20 Old 10-29-2013, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

YPAO will also EQ the speakers.
I would suggest going into the configuration settings and turn EQ off and then see what you think.

Also in 'Sound Setup' set dynamic range to max and in 'Function Setup' > 'Volume' set adaptive DRC to off.

There is no EQ (that I'm aware of)?

Dynamic range is set to MAX.

Adaptive DRC? Don't think I even have that option?



In speaker settings they're all set to "Small" , bass out of woofer only with a crossover of 100hz.
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post #11 of 20 Old 10-29-2013, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

I can speak from personal experience that Onkyos are a roll of the dice. Sometimes you win, sometimes you may lose. I had one cut out on me after four or five years, just stopped working. Some might say that's a pretty good life span for an AVR but not me. A good friend of mine purchased the 606 and the HDMI card died after 18 months. He sent it in (still under warranty) and got if fixed only to have the new HDMI die in 6 weeks. Sent it in again and as of right now its still working and working very well.

I got the Onkyo 809 after my first Onkyo died but I sold it after two years (at which point it was still working fine) and replaced it with a Denon 3313CI which IMO has better SQ. After seeing what happened to my friend I decided to try something else.

Onkyo gives you a lot of bells and whistles and good power at a nice price and if they don't fail they are a good AVR, but it is a roll of the dice as I have learned.
I'd be interested in a Denon, but thing is, I'm limited to a depth of 36cm including leads, which unfortunately limits my selection of amp frown.gif(Really needs to be under 33cm I recon!)
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post #12 of 20 Old 10-29-2013, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilF View Post

There is no EQ (that I'm aware of)?

Have a look in setup > speaker setup > manual setup > equalizer > and change GEQ to off.


Quote:
In speaker settings they're all set to "Small" , bass out of woofer only with a crossover of 100hz.

I would drop the crossover down to 80hz.

I have never really liked the automatic calibration of YPAO and I get much better results from measuring and setting things up myself manually.
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post #13 of 20 Old 10-29-2013, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
 I would drop the crossover down to 80hz.

I have never really liked the automatic calibration of YPAO and I get much better results from measuring and setting things up myself manually.

Ditto on dropping the crossover to 80hz.

 

My dad has a couple of Yamahas and I have to say after watching him run YPAO and hearing the results I'm not a huge fan. We had to do a lot of manual tweaking to the settings to dial it in. Overall though I would rank Yamaha SQ right up there with Denon and Marantz.

 

I specifically went with Denon so I would have Audyssey. On my upstairs system I have a Marantz 5007 also with Audyssey. I guess its obvious I prefer Audyssey for calibrating my systems, I find it requires less tweaking. But I still have had to play around a bit with the levels.

 

Denon has a lot of models and so does Marantz, have you checked to see if any of them fit your size requirements? Personally I would choose either of these over Onkyo for listening to music, they seem to have better SQ (IMHO).  Onkyo was great for HT though.

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post #14 of 20 Old 10-29-2013, 03:27 PM
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Dynamic range should absolutely be set to OFF for music listening. It comes in handy watching TV at low volumes but should not be used for music. I also doubt you'd see much improvement moving to Onkyo and run the risk of the reliability issues that are well documented in recent years. If you're going to sound quality go Marantz all the way. I'd rather buy one used than a new Onkyo.
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post #15 of 20 Old 10-29-2013, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jm86wvu View Post

Dynamic range should absolutely be set to OFF for music listening. It comes in handy watching TV at low volumes but should not be used for music. I also doubt you'd see much improvement moving to Onkyo and run the risk of the reliability issues that are well documented in recent years. If you're going to sound quality go Marantz all the way. I'd rather buy one used than a new Onkyo.

The only dynamic range option I believe is to define the "dynamic range compression to be applied. Only effective when unit is decoding Dolby Digital or DTS". Set to "MAX" to "preserve the greatest amount of dynamic range".
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post #16 of 20 Old 10-29-2013, 04:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Have a look in setup > speaker setup > manual setup > equalizer > and change GEQ to off.
I don't believe I have any equalizer options.

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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

I would drop the crossover down to 80hz.
I happened to swap "LFE Bass out" from "subwoofer" to "front", and instantly notice the music sounded a bit "fuller".

Indeed both "front" and "both" sound slightly nicer than "subwoofer".

I'm guessing this gives the front 902i's more range to play with!?
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post #17 of 20 Old 10-30-2013, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilF View Post

I don't believe I have any equalizer options.
I happened to swap "LFE Bass out" from "subwoofer" to "front", and instantly notice the music sounded a bit "fuller".

Indeed both "front" and "both" sound slightly nicer than "subwoofer".

I'm guessing this gives the front 902i's more range to play with!?

Play around with the crossover settings and see which you like best. My Totems like to be around 60Hz rather than 80Hz. Didn't know that until I played around with the settings.
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post #18 of 20 Old 10-30-2013, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jm86wvu View Post

Play around with the crossover settings and see which you like best. My Totems like to be around 60Hz rather than 80Hz. Didn't know that until I played around with the settings.

Given setting "LFE Bass out" seems to improve the sound when set to "both" - ie: Lower frequencies sent to front L & R + woofer - the crossover won't affect the front L & R at all, just dictate what frequencies the woofer starts to receive!?
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post #19 of 20 Old 10-30-2013, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilF View Post

I don't believe I have any equalizer options.

You're right, sorry. I downloaded the manual for the 461 and saw it doesn't do EQ. No biggie as I usually turn mine off anyhow.

Quote:
I happened to swap "LFE Bass out" from "subwoofer" to "front", and instantly notice the music sounded a bit "fuller".

Indeed both "front" and "both" sound slightly nicer than "subwoofer".

I'm guessing this gives the front 902i's more range to play with!?

Sure, experiment, but the tricky thing with bass is that what you think is "best" may not necessarily be so. For example a large +20dB 60hz peak may give the impression of a good bass response but it is nothing like having a smooth even response from 25hz and up, for example. The only way to know for sure what the different configurations are doing is frequency response measurements with a real time analyser.
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post #20 of 20 Old 10-30-2013, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

You're right, sorry. I downloaded the manual for the 461 and saw it doesn't do EQ. No biggie as I usually turn mine off anyhow.
Well, thanks for going to those sort of lengths in an attempt to help!

It does have treble/bass settings. I find with these set to 0, music sounds a little flat/empty, so treble is set to about 2 or 4 (out of 10), which seems to bring it out a bit.
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Sure, experiment, but the tricky thing with bass is that what you think is "best" may not necessarily be so. For example a large +20dB 60hz peak may give the impression of a good bass response but it is nothing like having a smooth even response from 25hz and up, for example. The only way to know for sure what the different configurations are doing is frequency response measurements with a real time analyser.
Well, with my new "both" setting for bass, I've turned the woofer down a bit, and upped the crossover a tad, which seems to give a more consistant bass result. But I'll continue to play...

The other problem is different sources/music give different results. Dance music, drum & bass, or electronic pop all ideally might need slight different settings, but you need to find a happy middle ground I guess smile.gif


Anyway, all said, just this stumbling across "both" and a few adjustments, has definately helped a bit... So this has been fruitful! Thanks!
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