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post #61 of 86 Old 11-10-2013, 07:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Maybe because it sounds really bad..?

I've noticed poor audio devices do sound ear splitting painful when even slightly loud and you want to turn them down again.

A good audio system sounds amazingly impressive even at 100 dB and you only want to turn it up more and rock on.

It could be unpleasant at high volume simply because you haven't got enough clean watts.
tongue.gif It sounds great at 125 dB (that's what my spl gauge said) but not everyone, including me, can withstand those sort of levels. The system was set up by a guy (same guy who taught me) who worked at a pro-audio store so he, unlike most churches, actually knew what he was doing. The gain is set so that the incoming signal hits 0 dB, there's no compression, the graphic eq is set up to avoid feedback (no smiley face eq), each channel eq was setup to give a nice warm sound, and nothing is clipping. So ya I think it sounds painful because of the SPL not because it sounds bad.

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post #62 of 86 Old 11-10-2013, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bruce Embry View Post

I stand by what I said. The filter network on the output of Class D amplifier contains Capacitors thus reducing the damping factor. Technically I would not trust the ratings of any modern day amplifier.

I second this.

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post #63 of 86 Old 11-10-2013, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Bruce Embry View Post

I stand by what I said. The filter network on the output of Class D amplifier contains Capacitors thus reducing the damping factor. Technically I would not trust the ratings of any modern day amplifier.

See... www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/nuforce_reference_85.htm

"Another strength of the Reference 8.5 is its incredibly high damping factor at any audio frequency. NuForce rates this at 4000 -- well beyond the specs for any other amplifier I’ve had in my listening room. The damping factor indicates how well an amp can stop the movement of a speaker’s drivers after the signal has stopped, so this can be very important, particularly with speakers whose driver suspensions are very compliant. Older solid-state amps and tube amps frequently had damping factors well under 100, and newer designs rarely exceed 1000. I’ve referred to the damping factor in some designs as having a vise-like grip on the drivers, so I guess the NuForce amp would have a death grip. Those drivers won’t be doing anything the 8.5 doesn’t tell them to do".
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post #64 of 86 Old 11-11-2013, 02:01 AM
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Why do so many people rave about the great sound from Hypex Class-D amp?? What I've heard from Hypex didn't exactly make me happy - nor did any other Class-D amp, for that matter...
I still think class A and A/B are far superior to class D in terms of sound quality. My subwoofer is powered by a bluit in Class D-amp, and it works fine. The problem I have with class D-amps, is with the reproduction of full range music material. It's just not quick enough, trading efficiency for musicality. Also, to my ears there seems to be an anomaly in the top end of the frequency spectrum, from the mid-range up.

This is exactly why I chose to buy an older, obsolete Rotel AVR, instead of a recent model. Their 1500 Range of AVR's use class-D amps and they don't sound as good as a Rotel should.
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post #65 of 86 Old 11-11-2013, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Embry View Post

Hi All,
I’m old school, and anything other than Class A or Class A/B simplify put is not High Fidelity.

That's pretty old-school. First off we now have a goodly bunch of Class G/H amps which can be as linear as class AB. We also now know that Class A can easily have poorer linearity than the same resources deployed in Class AB, or H.
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High-end speaker designers spend a lot of time designing cross-over networks to minimize frequency shifts/phase-shifts that can color the music. And then the Class-D amp which contains filters on the output will interact with the cross-over network in the speakers.

You're sitting on the cusp of a statement that all Call D amplifiers are the same which has to be false. They actually have fairly significant differences in design features that address the issue that you raise.

The ongoing increases in switching frequency makes the power amp output filter less of an issue. Furthermore class AB amps which you have deified, can have output filters. Finally, some Class D amps put the output filter inside the global feedback loop, which can make a difference.
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When you start adding filters on top of more filters to drive speakers you are going to mess up the sound of music.

Again a black and white statement when the real world is shades of gray as just explained As I pointed out above, even Class AB amps usually put filters on top of filters. Most class AB amps have series inductor/resistor networks to improve stability with tough loads. This filter is usually cutting in in the top octave of the normal 20-20K audio band. . If filters are always bad then there are few if any good amplifiers.
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Driving speakers properly requires high damping factors (low impudence in the amplifiers)

Again infinite decreases in amplifier source impedance don't provide infinite audible benefits. The law of diminishing returns is alive and well!
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high speed amplification, and power supplies that provide the amount of currents/voltage to keep the music waveform intact (low distortion).

Low distortion is always a good thing, but again to a point. High speed transistors and beefy power supplies are not required for good damping factors.
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post #66 of 86 Old 11-11-2013, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbeam418 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Embry View Post

I stand by what I said. The filter network on the output of Class D amplifier contains Capacitors thus reducing the damping factor. Technically I would not trust the ratings of any modern day amplifier.

I second this.

Be careful what you agree with! The essence of the network at the output of switchmode amps is a low pass filter which is in turn heavily based on an series inductor,which nobody seems to be mentioning.

http://www.powerguru.org/class-d-audio-amplifier-matches-class-ab-with-higher-efficiency/



Please note the coil and capacitor labelled "LP filter". This section of the amp is duplicated in virtually every class D design.

The basic problem and one approach for circumventing this can be found here:

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sloa145/sloa145.pdf

The ferrie beads have negligable effect in the normal audio band and therefore avoid the OP's concerns.
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post #67 of 86 Old 11-11-2013, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Be careful what you agree with! The essence of the network at the output of switchmode amps is a low pass filter which is in turn heavily based on an series inductor,which nobody seems to be mentioning.

http://www.powerguru.org/class-d-audio-amplifier-matches-class-ab-with-higher-efficiency/



Please note the coil and capacitor labelled "LP filter". This section of the amp is duplicated in virtually every class D design.

The basic problem and one approach for circumventing this can be found here:

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sloa145/sloa145.pdf

The ferrie beads have negligable effect in the normal audio band and therefore avoid the OP's concerns.

I see.

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post #68 of 86 Old 11-11-2013, 10:11 AM
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What about Yamaha's claims on their Class EEEngine that apparently circumvents Class D cons, giving the best of both worlds. Thoughts? Personally I use a Theta for the main channels and now the Yamaha P7000s most likely will replace the Crown CE4000s for the subwoofers. I have to locate the amps where fan noise begins to become an issue for me.
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post #69 of 86 Old 11-11-2013, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

What about Yamaha's claims on their Class EEEngine that apparently circumvents Class D cons, giving the best of both worlds. Thoughts? Personally I use a Theta for the main channels and now the Yamaha P7000s most likely will replace the Crown CE4000s for the subwoofers. I have to locate the amps where fan noise begins to become an issue for me.

Take a listen to one. Class H is an improvement to class A/B and sounds fine.

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post #70 of 86 Old 11-11-2013, 10:51 AM
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I am using the Crown K2 amp to power my mains. this is a class H amp. For what its worth, it has a claimed damping factor of 3000. it is also to my ears very transparent sounding as well.
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post #71 of 86 Old 11-11-2013, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shivaji View Post

I am using the Crown K2 amp to power my mains. For what its worth, it has a claimed damping factor of 3000. it is also to my ears very transparent sounding as well.

Most of the criticism of the later, released Class D amplifiers are from individuals who are stuck on the old school Class A-B designs.
And have not auditioned these using a high resolution loudspeaker system, traditional Class A-B designs do very well but are too bulky, inefficient for pwoer consumption, also the reduced footprint/form factor of the Class D is a plus..
Another point often lost is the dynamic head room power capability of a Class D amplifier, now that we have lossless digital sources/protocols that are capable of delivering a dynamic range of >120dB they do well here..

Kinda like the guys that still claim vinyl and tubes sound better... rolleyes.gif

Just my $0.05... 👍😉
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post #72 of 86 Old 11-12-2013, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbeam418 View Post



Take a listen to one. Class H is an improvement to class A/B and sounds fine.
My question is not about Class H. It is about EEEngine and improvements over Class D. I have listened to a lot of amps. Class D, Class A/B and more. I have a Theta that is probably Class A/B and have tried Hybrids like the Rouge Audio Medusa which is a Hybrid Class D. I do have reasonable speakers (Von Schweikert VR5/7 upgrades) that I coupled with Rogue Audio Athenas. What is your point? Please elaborate with clear data points. Thanks.
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post #73 of 86 Old 11-12-2013, 10:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

My question is not about Class H. It is about EEEngine and improvements over Class D. I have listened to a lot of amps. Class D, Class A/B and more. I have a Theta that is probably Class A/B and have tried Hybrids like the Rouge Audio Medusa which is a Hybrid Class D. I do have reasonable speakers (Von Schweikert VR5/7 upgrades) that I coupled with Rogue Audio Athenas. What is your point? Please elaborate with clear data points. Thanks.

My point is to test one, not not buy an amplifier because of it's class.

I'll explain what I got from Yamaha's article but I'm no amplifier wizard so keep that in mind. Anyways, basically class EEEngine is essentially the same as what companies were doing in the 80's; Technics for instance, called there amplifiers "new class A" which basically used a dynamic bias system and would monitor the input and base the bias on that. Essentially what Yamaha is doing is adjusting the power supply voltage, based on the input voltage, and switches the PSU off rapidly, again based on the input signal; but the transistors are operating in class A/B and the signal doesn't get converted to a PWM signal. Honestly this just sounds like an amplifier that uses a switching mode PSU, instead of just a transformer and some capacitors which are always on. So I think it's what companies have been trying to do for the last three decades; trying to make class A/B more efficient, while maintaining the same quality, companies have been doing that for decades and honestly, from the amplifiers I've heard, they all sound the same and use the same amount of power.

Just my .02.

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post #74 of 86 Old 11-12-2013, 10:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Most of the criticism of the later, released Class D amplifiers are from individuals who are stuck on the old school Class A-B designs.
And have not auditioned these using a high resolution loudspeaker system, traditional Class A-B designs do very well but are too bulky, inefficient for pwoer consumption, also the reduced footprint/form factor of the Class D is a plus..
Another point often lost is the dynamic head room power capability of a Class D amplifier, now that we have lossless digital sources/protocols that are capable of delivering a dynamic range of >120dB they do well here..

Kinda like the guys that still claim vinyl and tubes sound better... rolleyes.gif

Just my $0.05... 👍😉

Have you ever heard Black Sabbath's 13 album on CD? The dynamic range is a four on DR database eek.gif The vinyl? A whopping ten! Vinyl is better because you can't compress it like you can a CD. 13 would've sounded better on CD BUT because of Rick Rubin, the king of ruining great albums, I literally can not finish half the album without an ear ache.

Arnyk has changed my views on class D amps so I know think they are better. What's a tube amplifier? tongue.gif

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post #75 of 86 Old 11-13-2013, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by kbeam418 View Post



Have you ever heard Black Sabbath's 13 album on CD? The dynamic range is a four on DR database eek.gif The vinyl? A whopping ten! Vinyl is better because you can't compress it like you can a CD. 13 would've sounded better on CD BUT because of Rick Rubin, the king of ruining great albums, I literally can not finish half the album without an ear ache.

Arnyk has changed my views on class D amps so I know think they are better. What's a tube amplifier? tongue.gif

No I don't have the Black Sabbath 13 (CD), but I am aware it has been criticised for having compromised sound quality, it is overly compressed due to excessive use of peak limiting that leads to audible distortion. Some vinyl releases may sound better than their CD version, but this is a production issue not which format is better. Vinyl has had a resurgance in recent years and great care is typically done especially for an album that has been reissued. There are actually (2) vinyl mastering labs used for the audiophile vinyl releases and both are located in SoCal, we know both of these quite well.

My music library consists of 1200 CDs and 700 vinyls, and I can tell you that certain vinyls are sonically superior but this again is due to care taken during the mastering and production process. Being deeply involved in the audio biz gives me access to certain software not typically sold to the public. For example, I have source material of the Beatle LPs taken directly from the 1st generation EMI master tapes, which are incredible. But again my comments are related to the media and its respective technical capability, it doesn't matter if it is a CD or vinyl if care is not taken during the mastering/production process the end result can be a POS....😚

Just my $0.05... 👍😉💿💽
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post #76 of 86 Old 11-13-2013, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shivaji View Post

I am using the Crown K2 amp to power my mains. this is a class H amp. For what its worth, it has a claimed damping factor of 3000. it is also to my ears very transparent sounding as well.

I also have this amp along with a Yamaha p5000s that I recently tested on my bedroom speakers to see if I could hear a difference from my Adcom GFA-555 II. The setup I used wasn't the most scientific, it was manly my curiosity that got the best of me.

I had a speaker a/b/c switching box setup and leveled the gain on all my amps with my db mic so that everything was playing at the same volume. My bedroom speakers are some very old Infinity Monitor IIa's which are extremely power hungry. I was expecting to not hear much if any differences..

I'm not going to get into details but in this testing scenario I could easily point out my pro amps vs the Adcom. The bass on the Infinity's is fantastic and the pro amps brought out the best, most authoritative bass I've ever heard on the them. Unfortunately, the mids and highs sounded absolutely terrible! I'm not sure if there is something I should be doing to setup the pro amps (I used them for my HT subs and they are great) correctly, but needless to say I was shocked and really disappointed... Right now the Adcom is right back to where is was and my plans to buy pro amps for my HT upgrade are now on the fence. I'm not sure how some are saying that these specific amps sound good at all because to my ears - they are terrible.
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post #77 of 86 Old 11-13-2013, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Most of the criticism of the later, released Class D amplifiers are from individuals who are stuck on the old school Class A-B designs.
👍😉

Or maybe because many class D amps simply don't sound good... read my post above and let me know if there is something I need to do differently because the two mentioned pro amps I own are widely regarded as great sounding amps - to me, they sound like cheap junk and make my very nice sounding speakers' mids and highs sound like cheap Cerwin Vegas in a concrete bunker... at ANY listening level.
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post #78 of 86 Old 11-13-2013, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by realtight View Post

Or maybe because many class D amps simply don't sound good... read my post above and let me know if there is something I need to do differently because the two mentioned pro amps I own are widely regarded as great sounding amps - to me, they sound like cheap junk and make my very nice sounding speakers' mids and highs sound like cheap Cerwin Vegas in a concrete bunker... at ANY listening level.

It may be time for you to consider getting involved with a bias controlled listening test.
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post #79 of 86 Old 11-13-2013, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by realtight View Post

Or maybe because many class D amps simply don't sound good... read my post above and let me know if there is something I need to do differently because the two mentioned pro amps I own are widely regarded as great sounding amps - to me, they sound like cheap junk and make my very nice sounding speakers' mids and highs sound like cheap Cerwin Vegas in a concrete bunker... at ANY listening level.

Can't comment much as we have no hands-on experience with the Yamaha digital pro amps..
But we are familiar with the Infinity loudspeakers, they do present a unique reactive load to the amplifier especially with the Walsh super tweeter..
The loudspeakers are somewhat dated being 15 years old, but do not include the conjugate X-over circuit used in later models which helps to balance the impedance..

Just my $0.05... 👍😉
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It may be time for you to consider getting involved with a bias controlled listening test.

So are you saying the pro amps need further tweaking out of the box or that mine specifically have issues?
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post #81 of 86 Old 11-13-2013, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Can't comment much as we have no hands-on experience with the Yamaha digital pro amps..
But we are familiar with the Infinity loudspeakers, they do present a unique reactive load to the amplifier especially with the Walsh super tweeter..
The loudspeakers are somewhat dated being 15 years old, but do not include the conjugate X-over circuit used in later models which helps to balance the impedance..

Just my $0.05... 👍😉

I'm not really sure how to comment on the speakers as far as them being "dated", sounds more like the pro amps have a problem to me. Speakers are speakers whether is a super ribbon tweeter or a transmission tuned woofer, should make no difference to the amplifier as long as it has the current to drive them.

It's too bad, they have a ton of power.
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post #82 of 86 Old 11-13-2013, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post

No I don't have the Black Sabbath 13 (CD), but I am aware it has been criticised for having compromised sound quality, it is overly compressed due to excessive use of peak limiting that leads to audible distortion. Some vinyl releases may sound better than their CD version, but this is a production issue not which format is better. Vinyl has had a resurgance in recent years and great care is typically done especially for an album that has been reissued. There are actually (2) vinyl mastering labs used for the audiophile vinyl releases and both are located in SoCal, we know both of these quite well.

My music library consists of 1200 CDs and 700 vinyls, and I can tell you that certain vinyls are sonically superior but this again is due to care taken during the mastering and production process. Being deeply involved in the audio biz gives me access to certain software not typically sold to the public. For example, I have source material of the Beatle LPs taken directly from the 1st generation EMI master tapes, which are incredible. But again my comments are related to the media and its respective technical capability, it doesn't matter if it is a CD or vinyl if care is not taken during the mastering/production process the end result can be a POS....😚

Just my $0.05... 👍😉💿💽

Agreed.

"Then one day you find ten years have got behind you no one told when to run you missed the starting gun."
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post #83 of 86 Old 11-13-2013, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realtight View Post

I'm not really sure how to comment on the speakers as far as them being "dated", sounds more like the pro amps have a problem to me. Speakers are speakers whether is a super ribbon tweeter or a transmission tuned woofer, should make no difference to the amplifier as long as it has the current to drive them.

It's too bad, they have a ton of power.

Matching loudspeakers to amplifiers is more crucial with Class D amps vs. Class A-B, and this point was very obvious and audible with early Class D amps, in my experience the Class A-B amps are less sensitive to this.
I have always liked/appreciated the Infinity loudspeakers and have owned various Infinity systems over the years, presently I have the full Infinity Cascade system in one of my HT systems...
Later Class D solutions address this point by using various servo feedback systems (often analog) with its power supply...

Just my $0.05... 👍😉
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post #84 of 86 Old 11-13-2013, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Matching loudspeakers to amplifiers is more crucial with Class D amps vs. Class A-B, and this point was very obvious and audible with early Class D amps, in my experience the Class A-B amps are less sensitive to this.
I have always liked/appreciated the Infinity loudspeakers and have owned various Infinity systems over the years, presently I have the full Infinity Cascade system in one of my HT systems...
Later Class D solutions address this point by using various servo feedback systems (often analog) with its power supply...

Just my $0.05... 👍😉

Very good information. I'll have to test my Yamaha P5000s on my other two setups. This is an important lesson for all, trust your ears over anything else. Neither the audiophile club nor engineering club is 100% correct and test equipment before buying it.

Yes, there is a reason I've never gotten rid of the old Infinity's, they have a very unique sound at the same time being very neutral. I've heard many new speakers costing many thousands more that can't beat them smile.gif

The ONLY bad quality they have is they need a ton of power.
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post #85 of 86 Old 11-17-2013, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by realtight View Post

Or maybe because many class D amps simply don't sound good... read my post above and let me know if there is something I need to do differently because the two mentioned pro amps I own are widely regarded as great sounding amps - to me, they sound like cheap junk and make my very nice sounding speakers' mids and highs sound like cheap Cerwin Vegas in a concrete bunker... at ANY listening level.

The more accurate amps might be showing you the truth about the sound of your switchbox, source material, other equipment and your room. Not having seen your room, equipment and testing methods I have no idea if this is possible but as a spectator I cannot rule it out, especially when you are using 40 year old speakers. Have the Infinitys had their crossovers rebuilt? A lot of variables here.
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post #86 of 86 Old 11-18-2013, 06:25 PM
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Any amp suggestions for MA RX8 and center?
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