Denon X4000, 4520ci, Marantz SR7008, Anthem 710 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 11-30-2013, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Looking to upgrade form a 10+ year old B&K ref50 processor. Have a NAD M25 7 channel amp powering Paradigm Studio's (100's front, 570 center, and surrounds).

My original thought was to simplify - sell the NAD amp and just buy a receiver. Wanting Auddessy, air play, new surround formats, digital to zone 2 etc. ( I already have a zone 2 amp, powering 6 speakers).

Am I somewhat correct in thinking if I keep my NAD amp for power, I theoretically could go with the x4000 in lieu of the Marantz 7008 or Denon 4520 and have no audible difference?? BUT, if I sell the amp, and go strictly with an avr, the 4520 or 7008 would be a better option due to increased power?

Which combo would you go with for best sound quality? 90% HT/gaming 10% music

Anyone here purchased a refurb from accessories4less? Their pricing looks excellent
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post #2 of 23 Old 11-30-2013, 06:02 PM
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I don't think any of those receivers can match the power the M25 will deliver. I'd keep it and get the x4000 or even go with an older refurbished 3312 or 3313.

A lot of folks here buy from A4L and the few that have had problems have been taken care of quickly. I'd go ahead and buy their extended warranty along with whatever AVR you decide on.

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post #3 of 23 Old 11-30-2013, 06:45 PM
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Go with the x4000. The 3312 and 3313 only have MultiXT. Call JDSmoothie here for best price. I don't like refurbished stuff.
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post #4 of 23 Old 11-30-2013, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acaps View Post

Looking to upgrade form a 10+ year old B&K ref50 processor. Have a NAD M25 7 channel amp powering Paradigm Studio's (100's front, 570 center, and surrounds).

My original thought was to simplify - sell the NAD amp and just buy a receiver. Wanting Auddessy, air play, new surround formats, digital to zone 2 etc. ( I already have a zone 2 amp, powering 6 speakers).

Am I somewhat correct in thinking if I keep my NAD amp for power, I theoretically could go with the x4000 in lieu of the Marantz 7008 or Denon 4520 and have no audible difference?? BUT, if I sell the amp, and go strictly with an avr, the 4520 or 7008 would be a better option due to increased power?

Which combo would you go with for best sound quality? 90% HT/gaming 10% music

Anyone here purchased a refurb from accessories4less? Their pricing looks excellent
Use a AVR-x4000 as you pre-pro if you want to continue usage of your NAD M25. That would be a good solution if you go that route.

Otherwise the AVR-4520CI will work well your Paradigm Studio 100's, 570 center and which surrounds you have. The Marantz 7008 is basically a 9 ch amp version of the X4000, same 125 Watt/ch rating. The discount on a AVR-4520CI is a lot better then a SR7008 if you call around. The 4520 also has 32 bit DAC's, along with AL32 Multi Channel up sampling, and its built to drive 4 ohm speakers.

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post #5 of 23 Old 11-30-2013, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Do you think the 4520 could replace the NAD as a power source - driving my speakers with like power/clarity of the nad? then I could sell the NAD and buy a Rythmik sub smile.gif
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post #6 of 23 Old 11-30-2013, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acaps View Post

Do you think the 4520 could replace the NAD as a power source - driving my speakers with like power/clarity of the nad? then I could sell the NAD and buy a Rythmik sub smile.gif
The 4520 is quite capable on its own, although not quite as good as your older NAD M25. They just don't make them like they used to! The Paradigm studio 100's setup which I have works well my 4520CI. By using a F15 Direct Servo subwoofer or like, you using even less of the amp's power capacity anyway. The great thing would be one system to calibrate speakers and subwoofer using the latest Audyssey room equalization. smile.gif

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post #7 of 23 Old 11-30-2013, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Use a AVR-x4000 as you pre-pro if you want to continue usage of your NAD M25. That would be a good solution if you go that route.

Otherwise the AVR-4520CI will work well your Paradigm Studio 100's, 570 center and which surrounds you have. The Marantz 7008 is basically a 9 ch amp version of the X4000, same 125 Watt/ch rating. The discount on a AVR-4520CI is a lot better then a SR7008 if you call around. The 4520 also has 32 bit DAC's, along with AL32 Multi Channel up sampling, and its built to drive 4 ohm speakers.

Do the DACs and AL32 improve HT sound over the x4000?

Sorry for the newb question....
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post #8 of 23 Old 11-30-2013, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acaps View Post

Do the DACs and AL32 improve HT sound over the x4000?

Sorry for the newb question....
Most would say you can't audibly hear any difference in sound quality.

Denon does provides a write-up on this topic: Advanced AL32 Processing. The difference of resolution (number of voltage steps) 24 bits processing is 16,777,216, while a 32 bit is 4,294,967,206

Usually your talking about better SNR and THD levels with 32 bit DACs over 24 bit DAC's. Just a matter of marginally better parts used usually. smile.gif

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post #9 of 23 Old 12-01-2013, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I definitely like the looks of the Marantz better, but it sounds basically like it is the x4000 with two more channels of amplification.

The 4520 is also tempting - my assumption is that I could find it at a nice discount. Ac4less has a refurb for under 1500. Tempting
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post #10 of 23 Old 01-17-2014, 01:51 PM
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I'd opt for the X4000 over the Marantz just for XT32/SubEQ. Or the 4520 if you need more amp channels or more amp assignment flexibility.

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post #11 of 23 Old 01-17-2014, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Emetw View Post

I'd opt for the X4000 over the Marantz just for XT32/SubEQ. Or the 4520 if you need more amp channels or more amp assignment flexibility.

The SR7008 has XT32 and SubEQ.

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post #12 of 23 Old 01-17-2014, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

The SR7008 has XT32 and SubEQ.

Bill

I was mistaken, thinking of the 5008. Thanks for the correction smile.gif

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post #13 of 23 Old 01-17-2014, 06:56 PM
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I was mistaken, thinking of the 5008. Thanks for the correction smile.gif

Not a problem smile.gif. If cost is an issue the X4000 is the best choice out of all the AVRs listed. Excellent features including XT32 and SubEQ at a great price.

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post #14 of 23 Old 01-17-2014, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acaps View Post

Looking to upgrade form a 10+ year old B&K ref50 processor. Have a NAD M25 7 channel amp powering Paradigm Studio's (100's front, 570 center, and surrounds).

My original thought was to simplify - sell the NAD amp and just buy a receiver. Wanting Auddessy, air play, new surround formats, digital to zone 2 etc. ( I already have a zone 2 amp, powering 6 speakers).

Am I somewhat correct in thinking if I keep my NAD amp for power, I theoretically could go with the x4000 in lieu of the Marantz 7008 or Denon 4520 and have no audible difference?? BUT, if I sell the amp, and go strictly with an avr, the 4520 or 7008 would be a better option due to increased power?

Which combo would you go with for best sound quality? 90% HT/gaming 10% music

Anyone here purchased a refurb from accessories4less? Their pricing looks excellent

I have a Denon 2808 and NAD M25. Love the amp but my 2808 can power my Def Tech speakers pretty well too. Why not get a newer AVR like the 2808 for just a couple hundreded? Otherwise, I'd keep the amp and go for or a X4000 else wait a couple more years and see what else comes out. Just by a apply TV for air play.
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post #15 of 23 Old 03-12-2014, 09:09 AM
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Does the Marantz 7008 sound better for music then the Denon X4000. Music ranges from James Taylor to Muse to Sting to Radiohead. Plus late 60's and 70's rock, of course. Currently using Sherewood 972 which I thought sounded better then my Denon 4311.

Thanks in advance

Michael
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post #16 of 23 Old 03-12-2014, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aasen7 View Post

Does the Marantz 7008 sound better for music then the Denon X4000. Music ranges from James Taylor to Muse to Sting to Radiohead. Plus late 60's and 70's rock, of course. Currently using Sherewood 972 which I thought sounded better then my Denon 4311.

Thanks in advance

Michael

You will get many different answers to this. Chances are if you thought the 972 was superior to the 4311 then it will still be superior to the x4000. I had the x4000 and didn't care for it much with music, but movies it was ok. Remember this is the 3313 replacement and not a 4311 replacement level unit (whatever that means to you).

I do not think the x4000 is an automatic go to. Seems everyone recommends that unit. Sound quality was good, but not great and I was left wanting more so I returned it. You'll need to test drive yourself to get your answer. Other options in this price category are the Yamaha RX-A1030, Pioneer 1523-K (SC-75), Onkyo TX-NR929.

Oh and if you like the sound of the Sherwood 972 I'd look at the UMC-200, Fusion 8100, or wait a bit to see if Emotiva can hit their April launch of the XMC-1.
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post #17 of 23 Old 03-12-2014, 11:12 AM
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Also torn between the x4000 and the 4520CI...have no interest in zones just sound along with xt32(dual sub).... some say the 4520CI is superior in sound to the x4000.....

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post #18 of 23 Old 03-12-2014, 02:56 PM
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I bet not many have heard both that can comment. I would go back and read reviews from people that have heard both the 3312/3313 vs 4311 to try to understand how they describe the differences. My money says those similar differences will exist between x4000 and 4520.
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post #19 of 23 Old 03-13-2014, 07:02 AM
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Has anyone listen to or have the Marantz 7008? I would like to hear thoughts about this unit.

Thanks
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post #20 of 23 Old 03-13-2014, 07:09 AM
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I have the Marantz 7008 since July 2013 and it's very good for music and HT. I do about 80% music and 20% movies/TV. To me was a very noticeable upgrade coming from an Onkyo 809 with Audyssey XT to the Marantz 7008 with XT32 + SubEQ HT. BTW I'm using the 7008 as a pre/pro because I have external amps, so it runs very cold.

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post #21 of 23 Old 03-13-2014, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aasen7 View Post

Does the Marantz 7008 sound better for music then the Denon X4000. Music ranges from James Taylor to Muse to Sting to Radiohead. Plus late 60's and 70's rock, of course. Currently using Sherewood 972 which I thought sounded better then my Denon 4311.

Thanks in advance

Michael

If musicality is of chief importance to you, you really should give a close look at Yamaha. I don't know what Marantz has in the form of DSPs, but Yamahas 2-channel music DSPs are on a whole other level from Denon. I've never liked DSPs, but I was playing with them on a Yamaha for the first time last night and was very impressed. Not only do they measure real, famous? acoustic environments (music halls, clubs, churches, etc) for their DSPs, but they also allow you to tailor each DSP to your likeing. I don't know, maybe it's more commonplace now, but they also allow limited adjustment of DTS neo 6 music, and DPL II(x) music settings than what I've seen in Denon's I've owned, at least the 3030 does.

I think of Marantz and Denon both as being more movie focused. And with XT32, they may be better for movies, unless you're into manually tweaking EQ yourself, which is the only way Yamaha still competes with XT32 for movies IMO, unless you're in a room that doesn't need much correction, as YPAO is behind XT from what I've heard so far, much less XT32. I've seen YPAO compared to Audyssey MultiEQ, and that's probably in line with what I've heard so far. But after manual tweaking the built-in EQ, with maybe a little external help with sub 31Hz frequencies, if needed, the Yamaha may be more akin to an Audyssey Pro calibration - maybe. That last part might be a stretch, considering the number of filters Audyssey would use with an XT32 based pro cal. Or maybe not. Maybe someone who knows more about manual EQ than me can chime in there.

If it helps, I was able to compare a Yamaha 2030, Marantz 7007, and Denon 4000 in the same room, same speakers, supposedly level matched at least close enough that I couldn't tell an audible volume difference in the few seconds it took to switch over from one to the other. All were in pure direct, so no EQ was applied. The sound from both the Marantz and Yamaha really impressed me. Both sounded great at high volumes. The Denon didn't sound bad per se, but it was immediately obvious to me and the salesguy - who acted like he was really hearing them compared for the first time - that it wasn't on the same level. The 4000 had a harsher, more processed sound compared to the 2030 and 7007. Had I not just heard the other two, I'm not sure I'd have noticed it, but again, that was just a brief single comparison in pure direct, playing the same couple passages from Potter 8 - hardly conclusive of anything. Though I did have another dealer later tell me he had the same impression of the 4000's sound. He indicated the 4520 was better, but still preferred both Marantz and Yamaha.

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Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post

I bet not many have heard both that can comment. I would go back and read reviews from people that have heard both the 3312/3313 vs 4311 to try to understand how they describe the differences. My money says those similar differences will exist between x4000 and 4520.

Not necessarily, as I've heard Denon's build and production standards have fallen off quite a bit lately. I've had two dealers tell me they see higher return rates with Denon lately, compared to other manufacturers. Looking at 4520 user reviews on amazon indicates it's had some production problems as well - though another dealer, told me the 4520's problems seemed to be mostly with early production units. I haven't seen a 4520, but based on specs, the build seems to compare more with my 3808 - which was really surprising, as when I bought the 3808 it was one of their lighter weight, mid-end models, not the cream of their flagship line. I've been a fairly loyal Denon owner for over a decade, having owned the 5700, 5800 and 5805, prior to going to separate amplification with the 3808. Just to give you an idea where I'm coming from.

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Originally Posted by aasen7 View Post

Has anyone listen to or have the Marantz 7008? I would like to hear thoughts about this unit.

Thanks

It's a few pounds lighter, but if the 7008 has the same sound quality as the 7007, which I've been assured it does, it should be a great piece.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post

I have the Marantz 7008 since July 2013 and it's very good for music and HT. I do about 80% music and 20% movies/TV. To me was a very noticeable upgrade coming from an Onkyo 809 with Audyssey XT to the Marantz 7008 with XT32 + SubEQ HT. BTW I'm using the 7008 as a pre/pro because I have external amps, so it runs very cold.

Cold? I'm curious as to why that would be, considering the amps are on, whether used or not, and it's my understanding that the A/V processing generates more heat than anything. Using a Denon 3808 as a prepro, while our Outlaw amp runs so cool one might describe it as "cold", the AVR still feels about as warm to the touch as when running it alone, without the Outlaw amp hooked up.

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post #22 of 23 Old 03-13-2014, 03:50 PM
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In general amps get warmer when there is higher load on them.
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post #23 of 23 Old 03-14-2014, 11:03 AM
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^Of course they would. I was just trying to question the posters use of the word "cold" - he actually said "very cold" - without it coming off as an attack - maybe get him to qualify it further, because if the 7008 runs "cold" as a prepro, being in a small room with walls lined with acoustic treatments that practically trap heat, I want one! I suspect what he meant was that the 7008 practically seems cold compared to his former Onkyo, which would probably be somewhat of an exaggeration in and of itself.

I've never seen an AVR that could be classified as even "cool", much less "cold", unlike some stand alone amps that you can barely tell have been running even after a four hour gaming session. Even Marantz's 8801 prepro is said to run warmer than others, including warmer than the Yamaha 5000 prepro; and the Marantz 7007 AVR, while driving amps, felt very warm to me when I felt one recently - which infers, assuming the 7008 is similar to the 7007 in design and comparible to the Denon 3808 in respect to the seemingly minor temperature difference between running it as a prepro or by itself, the 7008 is likely little different from any other AVR I've encountered in regard to running temperature.

I have heard that Pioneers run cooler, which, feeling the top of one at a BB it felt considerably cooler than the Denon 4000, Yamaha 2030 and Marantz 7007 in the same room, late morning, probably having not been driven yet - I don't even know how long it might have been on. But Pioneer seems to suffer more reliability issues than even Denon.

On a related note, so far, the Yamaha 3030 seems to run a little cooler (or probably more accurately termed "less warm") under load than the Denon 3808 did as a prepro. The 3030 is a bit bigger, possibly with better heatsinks, according to Yamaha. And it's my understanding that the industry as a whole has improved the efficiency of amp design in recent years. Though I wonder if Audyssey may demand more processing power than YPAO, the video processing having been disabled in both.

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