Recommend a ~1-4 year old hifi/highend receiver/preprocessor with Audyssey XT32 and genuine pre outs - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 12-01-2013, 02:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Greetings!

So it happened that I bought legendary Yamaha NS-1000m speakers along with Luxman power amplifier to drive them and thus my setup skyrocketed from market-hifi to high-end.

Until now, I've been using Denon 2310 AV-Receiver as preprocessor for the luxman for listening purposes and denon as amplifier for rear speakers in HT-stuff. I just bought another Luxman power amplifier and Yamaha NS-500 speaker for the rear channels. So I have no need to AV-receiver at all, only AV-pre processor.

Now I have read some interesting stuff: "Market" hifi-receivers do NOT have "genuine" pre-outs. AFAIK this means that pre-outs are just main outs with resistor. This is not good. Also I really would like to upgrade from Audyssey multieq to XT32.

So could you please recommend me a good pre-processor or receiver with would function as pre-processor in my setup. With:

- hifi - high end sound quality, separate circuitry for audio would be good
- Aydyssey multieq XT32
- genuine pre-outs.
- only 1 HDMI out is needed, no need for 1.4
- affordable price ~ 1000$ as used.

Denon? Arcam? NAD? Marantz?
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post #2 of 20 Old 12-01-2013, 04:58 AM
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Been talking to audio salesmen lately?
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post #3 of 20 Old 12-01-2013, 05:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Been talking to audio salesmen lately?

umm, no. What's your point?
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post #4 of 20 Old 12-01-2013, 05:20 AM
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There are currently only two XT32 models that you will find new or used < $1000, the Onkyo 818 and the Denon X4000.

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post #5 of 20 Old 12-01-2013, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calathia View Post

umm, no. What's your point?
I think the is that neither FMW or myself have ever heard of "fake" pre-outs on a receiver. It sounds like something a salesman would spout to try to get a sale from you. eek.gif
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post #6 of 20 Old 12-01-2013, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calathia View Post

umm, no. What's your point?

My point is that you are deciding to change equipment based on a false premise. But it looks like Smoothie has done the research for you already so you can place an order.
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post #7 of 20 Old 12-01-2013, 07:56 AM
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Mind you .. my post was only related to XT32 ... not buying into the genuine pre-out business either. wink.gif

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post #8 of 20 Old 12-01-2013, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calathia View Post

Now I have read some interesting stuff: "Market" hifi-receivers do NOT have "genuine" pre-outs. AFAIK this means that pre-outs are just main outs with resistor. This is not good. Also I really would like to upgrade from Audyssey multieq to XT32.

Would you mind posting a link to where you read "Market" AVRs do not have "genuine" preouts. I would be curious to know this as I'm using the preouts of a Denon 4311 and I'd like to know if the preouts are "genuine" or not. I would also suggest the Denon X4000 as well. The 818 is a great choice as well but doesn't have SubEQ. If you have the need now or in the future to calibrate two subs then SubEQ is an excellent feature.

Bill

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post #9 of 20 Old 12-01-2013, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

My point is that you are deciding to change equipment based on a false premise. But it looks like Smoothie has done the research for you already so you can place an order.

Thank you FMW for your sarcasm. It seems you are really bored here, thats too bad.

If you just would read my entire post you would notice that I'm not buying anything new. In fact, from my list XT32 and Bi-amp (not listed, I forgot) is the main priority. It seems that Denon X4000 would be decent in many requirements. I'm a bit sceptical to onkyo AV-receivers, even pre-processors as they do tend to heat up.

Denon X4000 boasts with awesomeness level on its low jitter DAC quality and audio cirquitry. Has anyone tested X4000 against any decent hing-end amplifier? From what I read in avsforums it seems that even Emotiva preprocessors beats Denons, Onkyos and Marantzs in audio quality.

And FMW, you got your attention what you seeked, don't bother answer to this thread anymore. Thanks.
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post #10 of 20 Old 12-01-2013, 08:36 AM
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Forget you ever heard about biamping.

Im as curious as bill regarding the preout thing...what's not real about avr preouts? I'm using preouts from my 809....seems good ro me. wink.gif

If you were to partake in objective tests you would find there is no discernable difference in sound quality between the emo processors and the avr brands you listed.
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post #11 of 20 Old 12-01-2013, 12:03 PM
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mr. op, some members here are calling bs on your preout claim myself included. I have an 818 and all be damned if the preout's are fake/non-genuine they seem to do what I want them to do. I suggest you check your attitude back at the entrance. fmw, simply wants some viable proof, and statements like yours sound like they have been salesman influenced.
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post #12 of 20 Old 12-01-2013, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calathia View Post

Thank you FMW for your sarcasm. It seems you are really bored here, thats too bad.

If you just would read my entire post you would notice that I'm not buying anything new. In fact, from my list XT32 and Bi-amp (not listed, I forgot) is the main priority. It seems that Denon X4000 would be decent in many requirements. I'm a bit sceptical to onkyo AV-receivers, even pre-processors as they do tend to heat up.

Denon X4000 boasts with awesomeness level on its low jitter DAC quality and audio cirquitry. Has anyone tested X4000 against any decent hing-end amplifier? From what I read in avsforums it seems that even Emotiva preprocessors beats Denons, Onkyos and Marantzs in audio quality.

And FMW, you got your attention what you seeked, don't bother answer to this thread anymore. Thanks.

Calathia,

So if the X4000 is within your budget you won't buy it because it is new? I'm sure you've read some posts here on AVS that claim Emotiva's prepro beat Denon, Marantz and Onkyo in overall SQ. But I believe you will see as many if not more that find the Emotiva prepros do not sound any better.

I would also suggest you tone down your attitude. Especially telling a fellow member not post in this thread anymore. You're the one that started this thread asking for advice. In that you made an unfounded claim about non "genuine" preouts. In making such claims it is on you to provide links or proof of that claim. Remember it is the AV Science forum wink.gif.

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post #13 of 20 Old 12-01-2013, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calathia View Post

Thank you FMW for your sarcasm. It seems you are really bored here, thats too bad.

If you just would read my entire post you would notice that I'm not buying anything new. In fact, from my list XT32 and Bi-amp (not listed, I forgot) is the main priority. It seems that Denon X4000 would be decent in many requirements. I'm a bit sceptical to onkyo AV-receivers, even pre-processors as they do tend to heat up.

Denon X4000 boasts with awesomeness level on its low jitter DAC quality and audio cirquitry. Has anyone tested X4000 against any decent hing-end amplifier? From what I read in avsforums it seems that even Emotiva preprocessors beats Denons, Onkyos and Marantzs in audio quality.

And FMW, you got your attention what you seeked, don't bother answer to this thread anymore. Thanks.

I'll answer if I want to. You are confused about the preamplifier outputs. It seems you are also confused about the "audio quality" of DACs. DACs don't have "audio quality." They simply produce waveforms from digital data. The specification differences between them are not audible.

I haven't tested a X4000 with anything nor have I even seen one. However I spent years testing amplifiers and I can tell you that there is no "audio quality" to hifi solid state amplifiers either. Virtually all of them have inaudible distortion and noise. Virtually all have frequency response in the audible range within audible differences.

You asked if anyone had tested the amps in the Denon receiver against some other high end amp. Then you went on to praise a preamp/processor. I answered your question about amplifiers. I'll leave preamps alone since you didn't ask. Is there anything else I can not answer for you?
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post #14 of 20 Old 12-01-2013, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

It seems you are also confused about the "audio quality" of DACs. DACs don't have "audio quality." They simply produce waveforms from digital data. The specification differences between them are not audible.

Incorrect...
There are significant, sonic differences between DACs...
Once you get a high quality DAC the differences are close, but the cheaper DACs simply don't have the resolution & bandwidth..
EZ to demonstrate with an AVR having an iPod USB input...
Using a high bit rate source stream on the iPod..
1. Take out an iPod and run a cable from the Headphone Out into a high level input on your AVR..
2. Next connect the iPod via USB...

Compare the (2), playback differences will be very audible...


Just my $0.05... 👍😉
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post #15 of 20 Old 12-02-2013, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Incorrect...
There are significant, sonic differences between DACs...
Once you get a high quality DAC the differences are close, but the cheaper DACs simply don't have the resolution & bandwidth..
EZ to demonstrate with an AVR having an iPod USB input...
Using a high bit rate source stream on the iPod..
1. Take out an iPod and run a cable from the Headphone Out into a high level input on your AVR..
2. Next connect the iPod via USB...

Compare the (2), playback differences will be very audible...


Just my $0.05... 👍😉

One thing you have to remember in internet postings is never to leave anything out. Never assume. I should have said high fidelity DACs are DACs. While the DACs in a smart phone and an AVR receiver do the same things, the audio stages can be very different. I don't view a smart phone as a high fidelity product not because of the DAC but because of everything that follows it. I've done hundreds of bias controlled tests to arrive at the conclusion I stated. It is not incorrect.
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post #16 of 20 Old 12-03-2013, 01:05 AM - Thread Starter
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ok time for small update:

Posted a thread to a forum where this "incorrect pre-out" claim originated and no original claimer (I think there was 3 different user who claimed this) one has yet answered. I too am quite sceptical about this claim as it doesn't make any sense. I will post update as soon as I get any reply giving a proof/reference.
Quote:
Forget you ever heard about biamping.
In case of having typical speakers, true. But quite the opposite when having speakers like Yamaha NS-1000m, because of their demanding bass drive and beryllium mid/tweets. The bass drives need good amp which has enough punch to control the drives. However, those awesome beryllium domes just love tube amplifiers but this is of cource a matter of taste. But my bottom line is that biamp does make quite a difference with these special speakers.
Quote:
It seems you are also confused about the "audio quality" of DACs. DACs don't have "audio quality." They simply produce waveforms from digital data. The specification differences between them are not audible.

Wasn't enough informative here. With DAC I meant the whole unit build/quality/implification. Yes there is no audible difference in decent DAC's (the chips), but there are audible differences in DAC's as a whole, and the differences are usually because of the quality of analog stages.
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post #17 of 20 Old 12-03-2013, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Calathia View Post

In case of having typical speakers, true. But quite the opposite when having speakers like Yamaha NS-1000m, because of their demanding bass drive and beryllium mid/tweets. The bass drives need good amp which has enough punch to control the drives. However, those awesome beryllium domes just love tube amplifiers but this is of cource a matter of taste. But my bottom line is that biamp does make quite a difference with these special speakers.

Been doing any subjective evaluations lately?
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post #18 of 20 Old 12-03-2013, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Calathia View Post

ok time for small update:

Posted a thread to a forum where this "incorrect pre-out" claim originated and no original claimer (I think there was 3 different user who claimed this) one has yet answered. I too am quite sceptical about this claim as it doesn't make any sense. I will post update as soon as I get any reply giving a proof/reference.
Quote:
Forget you ever heard about biamping.
In case of having typical speakers, true. But quite the opposite when having speakers like Yamaha NS-1000m, because of their demanding bass drive and beryllium mid/tweets. The bass drives need good amp which has enough punch to control the drives. However, those awesome beryllium domes just love tube amplifiers but this is of cource a matter of taste. But my bottom line is that biamp does make quite a difference with these special speakers.
Quote:
It seems you are also confused about the "audio quality" of DACs. DACs don't have "audio quality." They simply produce waveforms from digital data. The specification differences between them are not audible.

Wasn't enough informative here. With DAC I meant the whole unit build/quality/implification. Yes there is no audible difference in decent DAC's (the chips), but there are audible differences in DAC's as a whole, and the differences are usually because of the quality of analog stages.

yeah, that doesn't mean anything pertinent to experiencing anything audible in a passive biamp hook up scheme. passive biamping is a waste of time for the user, but is a marketers delight.

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post #19 of 20 Old 12-03-2013, 04:47 AM
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Get the Denon AVR-X4000 and enjoy.

If you must have a used AVR, get a Denon AVR-4311CI. Amazon.com lists a few used units.
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post #20 of 20 Old 12-03-2013, 06:38 AM
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Get the Denon AVR-X4000 and enjoy.

If you must have a used AVR, get a Denon AVR-4311CI. Amazon.com lists a few used units.

I agree on both counts smile.gif.

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