NR 818 or Emotiva UMC-200 & UPA-700 Bundle - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 13 Old 12-02-2013, 08:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I am in the market for a new AVR. My Integra DTS 30.3 has the HDMI board problem. I am looking at the Onkyo NR818 and the current Emotiva bundle on sale. My speakers are Energy Veritas 6.2 towers, Energy 5.2 Center and Energy RC 10 surrounds. I have a Velodyne Sub and it was working great until the Integra no longer would produce any sound. Please help me decide. I am not sure I will be able to biamp with the emotiva or do I even need to. The Onkyo offers a higher wattage per channel while the emotiva seems to be cleaner on paper. I have never hooked up a preamp/processor before but hopefully that should be a non issue. I do not care about the internet connectivity. Not sure if the emotiva amp can biamp or even if makes a difference. My room is dedicated media room 20X20 feet size (approx)
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post #2 of 13 Old 12-03-2013, 02:27 AM
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Take the Emotiva package. I don't think you realize that AVRs are generally rated with only two channels running whereas Emotiva measures with all channels live. Biamping is a questionable complication in my mind but if you can spare the channels Emo can do it.
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post #3 of 13 Old 12-03-2013, 02:44 AM
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I suggest that you consider the Cambridge Audio 551R or 651R AVR. Either one will drive your speakers well without added power amplifiers.

Home Theater has reviewed several Cambridge receivers over the past few years, and they always praise their exceptionally good sound quality.

They are the only AVR I would even consider recommending to a friend. They are the Mercedes-Benz of receivers.

They have a lot more REAL power than "comparable' receivers, because they actually design their power supplies to be big enough to properly drive 5 or 7 real-world speakers without the need for additional power amplifiers. The power supply is way too small to do the job in most other receivers. An amplifier can only deliver what the power supply can produce.

They are the only company I know of that actually specifies power ratings for 5 or 7 channels with ALL CHANNELS FULLY DRIVEN!

The rest all give ratings for only 2 channels, which is all their crummy power supplies can handle, and then they can't deliver when more than 2 speakers are connected. Cheap trash.
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post #4 of 13 Old 12-03-2013, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I suggest that you consider the Cambridge Audio 551R or 651R AVR. Either one will drive your speakers well without added power amplifiers.

Home Theater has reviewed several Cambridge receivers over the past few years, and they always praise their exceptionally good sound quality.

They are the only AVR I would even consider recommending to a friend. They are the Mercedes-Benz of receivers.

They have a lot more REAL power than "comparable' receivers, because they actually design their power supplies to be big enough to properly drive 5 or 7 real-world speakers without the need for additional power amplifiers. The power supply is way too small to do the job in most other receivers. An amplifier can only deliver what the power supply can produce.

They are the only company I know of that actually specifies power ratings for 5 or 7 channels with ALL CHANNELS FULLY DRIVEN!

The rest all give ratings for only 2 channels, which is all their crummy power supplies can handle, and then they can't deliver when more than 2 speakers are connected. Cheap trash.

I'm sure the Cambridge Audio AVRs are excellent but they are a bit short on features. The 551R has only four HDMI inputs and no room correction system. That seems kind of basic for an AVR that has a MSRP of $1199. Looking at the listing of the 551R on Crutchfield shows it has 60 wpc x7 at 8 ohm. That doesn't seem like a whole lot of power.

So "all" the other AVRs besides the CA AVRs are "cheap trash"? That's quite a broad based statement to make rolleyes.gif. I'll take my Denon 4311 that I paid $1250 for new with plenty of power to drive the speakers in my system any day over any of the over priced CA AVRs. I use the 4311 as a prepro but there are plenty of 4311 owners that power their surround sound systems with the 4311's onboard amps without any problems at all.

Bill


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post #5 of 13 Old 12-03-2013, 10:38 AM
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Find me another AVR that actually GIVES a power rating for all channels with all 7 driven. There aren't any. If they are really good units, why do they DUCK this very basic issue and refuse to give meaningful power ratings for 5 or 7 channels? Do you have an answer for that?

Most of them don't put out anywhere near as much, because their crappy power supplies are less than half the size of the Cambridge.

An honest 60 watts per channel to all 7 channels with low distortion is far more than most 7-channel AVRs can supply.

The amplifiers can't deliver what the power supply can't supply!

Home Theater magazine RAVES about how good the Cambridge receivers sound every time they test them. They never say anything as positive about any other brand. Read the reviews.

Your 4311 is a very good unit; one of the few that competes at all with Cambridge, but it still doesn't SOUND as good IMO (and it is not cheaper). Denon is certainly better than Yamaha and Pioneer etc., with their cheap Class D amplifiers and puny power supplies. Actually, if you look at the specs, Cambridge receivers do have an impressive list of capabilities and features.

And by the way; Cambridge is of the opinion that all of the digital signal processing that goes on in most room correction software seriously degrades the sound QUALITY, and most knowledgeable reviewers and engineers agree.

That is why Cambridge refuses to play the "bells and whistles" game and sticks to sound engineering practices. If you prefer the longest list of "features" to the best sound quality, stick with the Japanese manufacturers and they will stick it to you.

Cambridge has their own proprietary room/speaker setup system (CAMCAS) with a calibrated microphone included. They consider it superior to other systems. You are completely wrong when you allege that they do not have one.
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post #6 of 13 Old 12-03-2013, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Find me another AVR that actually GIVES a power rating for all channels with all 7 driven. There aren't any. If they are really good units, why do they DUCK this very basic issue and refuse to give meaningful power ratings for 5 or 7 channels? Do you have an answer for that?

Most of them don't put out anywhere near as much, because their crappy power supplies are less than half the size of the Cambridge.

An honest 60 watts per channel to all 7 channels with low distortion is far more than most 7-channel AVRs can supply.

The amplifiers can't deliver what the power supply can't supply!

Home Theater magazine RAVES about how good the Cambridge receivers sound every time they test them. They never say anything as positive about any other brand. Read the reviews.

Your 4311 is a very good unit; one of the few that competes at all with Cambridge, but it still doesn't SOUND as good IMO (and it is not cheaper). Denon is certainly better than Yamaha and Pioneer etc., with their cheap Class D amplifiers and puny power supplies. Actually, if you look at the specs, Cambridge receivers do have an impressive list of capabilities and features.

And by the way; Cambridge is of the opinion that all of the digital signal processing that goes on in most room correction software seriously degrades the sound QUALITY, and most knowledgeable reviewers and engineers agree.

That is why Cambridge refuses to play the "bells and whistles" game and sticks to sound engineering practices. If you prefer the longest list of "features" to the best sound quality, stick with the Japanese manufacturers and they will stick it to you.

Cambridge has their own proprietary room/speaker setup system (CAMCAS) with a calibrated microphone included. They consider it superior to other systems. You are completely wrong when you allege that they do not have one.

Your bias towards CA products is coming through loud and clear wink.gif. There is quite a few CA "opinions" in you above post. I guess if you buy into the CA hype then that's cool smile.gif. I'm not sure what the average mid-level AVR all channel power ratings are. But I would think many could possibly hit 60 wpc all channels driven. If I was going to setup a system with no concern about features I'd go the UMC-200/UPA-700 route. That option would cost less than the CA 551R and give one more power.

I wonder what CA would think of all "seriously degrades the sound QUALITY" going on in top AVRs (X4000, 4311/4520) and prepros (Marantz 8801/Onkyo 5509) wink.gif. That's total BS if you ask me and many others will I'm sure agree. Does CAMCAS EQ ones speakers and subs as Audyssey does? Keep buying into the CA "hype" and you'll be fine biggrin.gif.

Bill


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, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

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post #7 of 13 Old 12-03-2013, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Find me another AVR that actually GIVES a power rating for all channels with all 7 driven. There aren't any. If they are really good units, why do they DUCK this very basic issue and refuse to give meaningful power ratings for 5 or 7 channels? Do you have an answer for that?

Most of them don't put out anywhere near as much, because their crappy power supplies are less than half the size of the Cambridge.

An honest 60 watts per channel to all 7 channels with low distortion is far more than most 7-channel AVRs can supply.

The amplifiers can't deliver what the power supply can't supply!

Home Theater magazine RAVES about how good the Cambridge receivers sound every time they test them. They never say anything as positive about any other brand. Read the reviews.

Your 4311 is a very good unit; one of the few that competes at all with Cambridge, but it still doesn't SOUND as good IMO (and it is not cheaper). Denon is certainly better than Yamaha and Pioneer etc., with their cheap Class D amplifiers and puny power supplies. Actually, if you look at the specs, Cambridge receivers do have an impressive list of capabilities and features.

And by the way; Cambridge is of the opinion that all of the digital signal processing that goes on in most room correction software seriously degrades the sound QUALITY, and most knowledgeable reviewers and engineers agree.

That is why Cambridge refuses to play the "bells and whistles" game and sticks to sound engineering practices. If you prefer the longest list of "features" to the best sound quality, stick with the Japanese manufacturers and they will stick it to you.

Cambridge has their own proprietary room/speaker setup system (CAMCAS) with a calibrated microphone included. They consider it superior to other systems. You are completely wrong when you allege that they do not have one.


NAD does it. The 758 is easily comparable to the Cambridge and also cost less. It's upgradable with MDC boards, it's 7 channels are full disclosure 60 watts all channels driven and also gets outstanding reviews. Not saying the Cambridge isn't an excellent AVR, but there are others out there.
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post #8 of 13 Old 12-03-2013, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Your bias towards CA products is coming through loud and clear wink.gif. There is quite a few CA "opinions" in you above post. I guess if you buy into the CA hype then that's cool smile.gif. I'm not sure what the average mid-level AVR all channel power ratings are. But I would think many could possibly hit 60 wpc all channels driven. If I was going to setup a system with no concern about features I'd go the UMC-200/UPA-700 route. That option would cost less than the CA 551R and give one more power.

I wonder what CA would think of all "seriously degrades the sound QUALITY" going on in top AVRs (X4000, 4311/4520) and prepros (Marantz 8801/Onkyo 5509) wink.gif. That's total BS if you ask me and many others will I'm sure agree. Does CAMCAS EQ ones speakers and subs as Audyssey does? Keep buying into the CA "hype" and you'll be fine biggrin.gif.

Bill

Bill, not to start another argument, however your bias for Denon and Onkyo and against Emo flares up on a regular basis.

I agree that many can hit 60 wpc as you stated. I also agree that the UMC-200/UPA would be a good combo.

I can't agree that Audyssey enhances the sound. IMO it degrades it everywhere but the sub. Even Keith gives a thumbs down to all but XT32. Guess I can't buy into the Audyssey hype.

I would be surprised if the CA did not produce better sound than the Denons. Just my opinion.
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post #9 of 13 Old 12-03-2013, 04:06 PM
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The Emotiva UMC-200/UPA-700 is a really good deal at $800 but the UMC-200 has no video processing and still has teething problems. I'd actually go with the Onkyo NR818 plus Emotiva XPA-5 but it is going to cost more. That all depends on whether you want a more mainstream room correction package and have a lot of DVD's that need upconversion to 1080p. Emotiva's mindset with the entry-level UMC-200 is to just let something like an Oppo BDP-103/105 handle the video processing.

HD-DVD = 94
Blu-Ray = 120 ( 24 Warner red2blu )
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post #10 of 13 Old 12-03-2013, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Bill, not to start another argument, however your bias for Denon and Onkyo and against Emo flares up on a regular basis.

I agree that many can hit 60 wpc as you stated. I also agree that the UMC-200/UPA would be a good combo.

I can't agree that Audyssey enhances the sound. IMO it degrades it everywhere but the sub. Even Keith gives a thumbs down to all but XT32. Guess I can't buy into the Audyssey hype.

I would be surprised if the CA did not produce better sound than the Denons. Just my opinion.

Mud,

My thoughts on Emotiva are not due to my bias towards Denon or Onkyo. My thoughts are based on my personal experience with Emotiva gear. My experience with Emotiva components has not been positive. My experience with Denon and Onkyo has been very positive. I've owned two Denon AVRs and three Onkyo processors without a single problem. Whether you like Audyssey or not is up to you and I respect that opinion. I find Audyssey works well and sounds excellent in my room. To each his own I guess with no one being right or wrong IMO.

The issue I have with commsysman's earlier post is not his bias for Cambridge Audio AVRs but how he claims all other AVRs are "cheap trash".

But here where are again where you post after one of my posts about my "bias" towards Denon and Onkyo. You have a bias towards Emotiva which is fine with me. So why is it you have the need to post the above reminding me and others of my bias towards what has worked well for me? I will openly admit that I'm biased towards Denon and Onkyo. But with that I don't call AVRs or prepros from other companies "cheap trash" which to me is trolling at it's finest IMO.

The funny thing is I actually recommended the UMC-200/UPA-700 combo over the CA 551R. So please tell me how is that "flaring up" against Emotiva?

Bill


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post #11 of 13 Old 12-05-2013, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. I bought the emotiva package and should be arriving tomorrow. Video processing is not that important as most of my stuff is Blu ray or HD. I would love to buy the XPA 5 but $$$. I will be biamping the toweres so they will atleast get the 160watts
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Originally Posted by jevans64 View Post

The Emotiva UMC-200/UPA-700 is a really good deal at $800 but the UMC-200 has no video processing and still has teething problems. I'd actually go with the Onkyo NR818 plus Emotiva XPA-5 but it is going to cost more. That all depends on whether you want a more mainstream room correction package and have a lot of DVD's that need upconversion to 1080p. Emotiva's mindset with the entry-level UMC-200 is to just let something like an Oppo BDP-103/105 handle the video processing.
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post #12 of 13 Old 12-12-2013, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I have hooked this up and definitely is an improvement over the current setup. Good thing is that even wifey notices a difference in sound clarity. smile.gif I am still not sure if I will get more power from the AVR NR818 which is rated 135W with conflicting info for 2 channel driven or 7 channel driven. Some rep at the onkyo forums notes its still 135 all 7 channel driven. Do you have any insight on this? Please advise.
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post #13 of 13 Old 12-12-2013, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by desiboston View Post

Thanks. I bought the emotiva package and should be arriving tomorrow. Video processing is not that important as most of my stuff is Blu ray or HD. I would love to buy the XPA 5 but $$$. I will be biamping the toweres so they will atleast get the 160watts

No, you will still get 80 watts. Biamping will not double the power.
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