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post #181 of 218 Old 12-18-2013, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

No offense but you have argued with just about everyone in this thread. You are asking for something that doesn't exist. That is a prepro under $500 with all the features you want.

So large manufacturers like Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Pioneer and Yamaha are going to retrofit their assembly lines to make a product (prepro) that is not going to sell nearly as well as their AVRs? Then in doing so sell it for less than they sell their AVRs for? I'm far from a business savvy person but even I can figure out that isn't going to happen. So you can stop arguing with fellow members in this thread and go out and buy something that will possibly make you happy.

I'm sure you're going to respond to this post playing the victim once again. That act just gets old and I'm not the only one in this thread that thinks that wink.gif.

Bill

I never claimed I wanted a pre pro for under $500. Nor am I playing victim. OP suggests there is a void in the market. And I agree with them.

And since you seem to have a problem finding answers already given previously I will repeat this for you.

I want an equivalent AVR to my current one of today's technologies at a similar price point.

And what I would like to fill the void in the market is a AVP with the same features as mid - high end AVR's at a reasonable price point.

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post #182 of 218 Old 12-18-2013, 06:47 PM
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i made no such claims. you did by however you inferred my comment. selective reading.

seems like bickering is a strong suit for you.

What claims? Are you blind? You specifically said you would not comment and then made two accusations
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im not going to comment on the selective reading conclusions in your above post. im tired of your bickering and victim playing.

And just did it again.
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selective reading again....rolleyes.gif

How so? You said you refuse to comment and then made a cowardly escape through a blind accusation. Snubbing me off as "bickering". I called you out on it and you come back with another accusation.

bickering and victim playing is what you are doing. read your posts in this thread. i dont see me stating the obvious as "blind accusations", and frankly i'm tired of it.

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!

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post #183 of 218 Old 12-18-2013, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by 67jason View Post


bickering and victim playing is what you are doing. read your posts in this thread. i dont see me stating the obvious as "blind accusations", and frankly i'm tired of it.

You're tired of giving bad advice? I am tired of reading your bad advice.

I have read the thread over again. All I see is you giving bad recommendations of products to me (not meeting my criteria) and when I explain why they do not meet my criteria you try to sway me from my original goal. The same very thing you give another poster on this forum crap for.

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post #184 of 218 Old 12-18-2013, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

No offense but you have argued with just about everyone in this thread. You are asking for something that doesn't exist. That is a prepro under $500 with all the features you want.

So large manufacturers like Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Pioneer and Yamaha are going to retrofit their assembly lines to make a product (prepro) that is not going to sell nearly as well as their AVRs? Then in doing so sell it for less than they sell their AVRs for? I'm far from a business savvy person but even I can figure out that isn't going to happen. So you can stop arguing with fellow members in this thread and go out and buy something that will possibly make you happy.

I'm sure you're going to respond to this post playing the victim once again. That act just gets old and I'm not the only one in this thread that thinks that wink.gif.

Bill

I never claimed I wanted a pre pro for under $500. Nor am I playing victim. OP suggests there is a void in the market. And I agree with them.


no, you want an avr with preouts or prepro for under $300. its been explained why you wont find such a thing and many budget friendly alternatives were offered. you offered excuse after excuse from you as to why you wont consider them. bickering and arguing away.

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!

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post #185 of 218 Old 12-18-2013, 06:55 PM
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bickering and victim playing is what you are doing. read your posts in this thread. i dont see me stating the obvious as "blind accusations", and frankly i'm tired of it.

You're tired of giving bad advice? I am tired of reading your bad advice.

now suddenly my advice is bad....lol. many members of this forum disagree with you. nice attempt at twisting things to suit you though.

if ya dont want to hear "bad advice" dont ask for any advice at all. wink.gif

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!

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post #186 of 218 Old 12-18-2013, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

no, you want an avr with preouts or prepro for under $300. its been explained why you wont find such a thing and many budget friendly alternatives were offered. you offered excuse after excuse from you as to why you wont consider them. bickering and arguing away.

Not under. For around $300. The budget friendly alternatives that were actually budget friendly I accepted as good recommendations. Yours were not good recommendations given my requirements and my location. My dismissal of your recommendations has somehow offended you.

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now suddenly my advice is bad....lol. many members of this forum disagree with you. nice attempt at twisting things to suit you though.

if ya dont want to hear "bad advice" dont ask for any advice at all. wink.gif

Actually I didn't ask for your advice in this thread. I have another thread open asking for advice on AVR's and you never said a word in that thread. I am not twisting things around I am simply stating a fact: In this thread your advice to me has been bad.

You give commsysman crap for recommending products to OP's that are outside of their goal or criteria, and recommending products with claims and no proof, yet you do the same to me here and think it is okay. So now I must ask, are you a hypocrite?

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post #187 of 218 Old 12-18-2013, 07:05 PM
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I think the disconnect in this thread between the OP and his/her supporters and arnyk, 67jason, FMW and others is both groups are arguing from different perspectives. The OP has a desire for a receiver with specific criteria (low cost, pre-outs and no amp). While this IS entirely possible in theory and in practice, it is not feasible in reality due to economic reasons and a business's desire to make money. This reality is what the other camp is arguing. I don't think they are arguing it can't be done, they are arguing that companies won't do it due to economic reasons.


Here are some of my observations:

1. The OP and his/her supporters want a lower cost receiver with pre-outs and no amp. In theory, this would be possible. Less material should cost less to manufacture. This is true, but that's not the whole picture.
a. Manufacturers now have to retool their designs and process at huge costs. You can't simply just not install the amps. All those circuit boards and wires were once connected somewhere. They can't just be left unconnected.
b. If manufacturers can somehow do this at minimal cost, and reduce the cost of the product that still leaves it up to the consumer to now have to spend the same difference, if not more, to get an external amp. Then they have to worry about cables and how to connect everything. I don't know about you, but the vast majority of the people I know who even have something more than TV speakers or a soundbar have a VERY low cost receiver or HTIB. In other words, consumers want what's easy. They don't want to spend more money for additional complexity.
c. The market share for people like us is a drop in the ocean to the manufacturers. What this means as arnyk and company have eluded to is that even though material cost is lower, lack sales of these low cost receivers the OP wants will actually drive the cost of manufacturing higher than if they just kept the amp in there in the first place. It's called economies of scale. The more you sell the cheaper it is for the manufacturer to produce as they will now be purchasing and building in bulk. Think warehouse retailers like Costco or Walmart vs. your local supermarket. There's a reason why local shops go out of business when stores like Walmart show up. They simply cannot compete with Walmart or Costco's purchasing power which allows them to sell at a lower pricepoint. No company I know of is in the business to lose money to please a small minority.

2. Bun-Bun states there are no receivers that have pre-outs in the sub $XXX amount even though many have provided links stating otherwise. He's just unfortunate to live in a country that gets hosed due to shipping and tariffs. It is what it is. They can be found, unfortunately just not for him unless he's willing to do the legwork.

3. No passive speaker with a 12 driver will ever be able to reproduce the bass frequencies remotely close to a properly designed sub as arnyk has pointed out. This is based on measured data, science and even subjective listening tests. I'll leave it that subjective can go either way because it is well, subjective. I have the Revels similar to what arnyk mentioned, but mine has 3 - 8" drivers which gives roughly the same cone area as a 14" driver according to Revel. No way can it compete with a single one of my DIY 10" subs let alone any of my 15" or 18" subs. If people prefer the sound of a speaker run large over a speaker that's crossed over to a sub then my guess is that the sub was not integrated properly. You can't just buy a sub, throw it in a room, connect it, set the crossover and consider it done. Integrating a sub into a system take a great deal of time, effort and knowledge. Done properly, it will be seamless and outperform a tower speaker run full range. The physics behind low frequencies and air displacement will always favor a properly designed sub system over a speaker with large bass drivers. You simply cannot argue against physics and win.

Sorry, pressed for time so I had to give you all my abridged version.
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post #188 of 218 Old 12-18-2013, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Bun-Bun View Post

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Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

no, you want an avr with preouts or prepro for under $300. its been explained why you wont find such a thing and many budget friendly alternatives were offered. you offered excuse after excuse from you as to why you wont consider them. bickering and arguing away.

Not under. For around $300. The budget friendly alternatives that were actually budget friendly I accepted as good recommendations. Yours were not good recommendations given my requirements and my location. My dismissal of your recommendations has somehow offended you.

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now suddenly my advice is bad....lol. many members of this forum disagree with you. nice attempt at twisting things to suit you though.

if ya dont want to hear "bad advice" dont ask for any advice at all. wink.gif

Actually I didn't ask for your advice in this thread. I have another thread open asking for advice on AVR's and you never said a word in that thread. I am not twisting things around I am simply stating a fact: In this thread your advice to me has been bad.

You give commsysman crap for recommending products to OP's that are outside of their goal or criteria, and recommending products with claims and no proof, yet you do the same to me here and think it is okay. So now I must ask, are you a hypocrite?

i seem to remember providing a list of avrs and you focused on one model. well after the fact it was revealed that you were in canada and yet was still insistent that i locate the particular one for a price i never claimed it to be.. seems like you should reread the thread.

i also seem to recall part of this discussion going off into (flawed) testing. would you like me to offer my thoughts on your (flawed) testing?

i also seem to remember you questioning another members motivations for using a certain denon as a prepro....should i comment on this too?

i also seem to remember you being quite dismissive with advice coming from a couple of qualified knowledgeable members with letters a and f in their names. you seemed to accuse at least one of them to be twisting your words. should i comment on this to?


i dont read or comment on every thread on avs. i did see your other thread and chose not to make a comment in it when this thread serves well enough for me to comment in. would you like me to comment in the other?

as far as is what is said between me and other posters on this forum, how is that relevant here? and since you are into checking up on my responses to others in other threads, perhaps you should check up on the reputation of the member i made the response to. he has a very "unique" rep, and i might say at least as far as i am concerned, you are quickly developing a unique, albeit different from that other posters, reputation.

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!

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post #189 of 218 Old 12-18-2013, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

I think the disconnect in this thread between the OP and his/her supporters and arnyk, 67jason, FMW and others is both groups are arguing from different perspectives. The OP has a desire for a receiver with specific criteria (low cost, pre-outs and no amp). While this IS entirely possible in theory and in practice, it is not feasible in reality due to economic reasons and a business's desire to make money. This reality is what the other camp is arguing. I don't think they are arguing it can't be done, they are arguing that companies won't do it due to economic reasons.


Here are some of my observations:

1. The OP and his/her supporters want a lower cost receiver with pre-outs and no amp. In theory, this would be possible. Less material should cost less to manufacture. This is true, but that's not the whole picture.
a. Manufacturers now have to retool their designs and process at huge costs. You can't simply just not install the amps. All those circuit boards and wires were once connected somewhere. They can't just be left unconnected.
b. If manufacturers can somehow do this at minimal cost, and reduce the cost of the product that still leaves it up to the consumer to now have to spend the same difference, if not more, to get an external amp. Then they have to worry about cables and how to connect everything. I don't know about you, but the vast majority of the people I know who even have something more than TV speakers or a soundbar have a VERY low cost receiver or HTIB. In other words, consumers want what's easy. They don't want to spend more money for additional complexity.
c. The market share for people like us is a drop in the ocean to the manufacturers. What this means as arnyk and company have eluded to is that even though material cost is lower, lack sales of these low cost receivers the OP wants will actually drive the cost of manufacturing higher than if they just kept the amp in there in the first place. It's called economies of scale. The more you sell the cheaper it is for the manufacturer to produce as they will now be purchasing and building in bulk. Think warehouse retailers like Costco or Walmart vs. your local supermarket. There's a reason why local shops go out of business when stores like Walmart show up. They simply cannot compete with Walmart or Costco's purchasing power which allows them to sell at a lower pricepoint. No company I know of is in the business to lose money to please a small minority.

2. Bun-Bun states there are no receivers that have pre-outs in the sub $XXX amount even though many have provided links stating otherwise. He's just unfortunate to live in a country that gets hosed due to shipping and tariffs. It is what it is. They can be found, unfortunately just not for him unless he's willing to do the legwork.

3. No passive speaker with a 12 driver will ever be able to reproduce the bass frequencies remotely close to a properly designed sub as arnyk has pointed out. This is based on measured data, science and even subjective listening tests. I'll leave it that subjective can go either way because it is well, subjective. I have the Revels similar to what arnyk mentioned, but mine has 3 - 8" drivers which gives roughly the same cone area as a 14" driver according to Revel. No way can it compete with a single one of my DIY 10" subs let alone any of my 15" or 18" subs. If people prefer the sound of a speaker run large over a speaker that's crossed over to a sub then my guess is that the sub was not integrated properly. You can't just buy a sub, throw it in a room, connect it, set the crossover and consider it done. Integrating a sub into a system take a great deal of time, effort and knowledge. Done properly, it will be seamless and outperform a tower speaker run full range. The physics behind low frequencies and air displacement will always favor a properly designed sub system over a speaker with large bass drivers. You simply cannot argue against physics and win.

Sorry, pressed for time so I had to give you all my abridged version.

1. Exactly. Except how can Emotiva and Outlaw do it then? surely these larger companies could also move into the new century and fill the void. I live and breathe design and manufacturing. I know it can be done. Hopefully Emotiva is successful and come out with more processors at different price points and feature sets.

2. There are no receivers with preouts at the $300 price point. Recommendations have been for either AVR's without pre outs or more expensive units. There have been a couple around the $500 price point, that are available to me, and that I have taken into consideration and thanked the poster.

3. You're right. Subjective is subjective. And maybe I haven't been blessed enough to witness a properly set up sub and room to hear what you are talking about. However based on my experience, and the way I like to listen to music, subs do not sound right compared to tower speakers with large woofers. Also I have never had an issue getting a pair of towers to sound right in a room where as subs have been a constant battle. Sometimes I can get a good placement and other times its a crapshoot. For example my current listening space has ducts running across it mid room with a drop ceiling. Standing/Sitting underneath those ducts, which is where my couch is, receives extremely diminished sub response. Everywhere else in the room sounds good but my critical listening area. When I got my Monitor 11's they fixed the problem. I was able to crossover the sub lower and run them full range. There are times I turn off the sub and just enjoy the towers and I sometimes forget the sub is off. I prefer larger towers handling the lower frequencies.

Thank you for your well written post. It was a fresh change of pace.

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post #190 of 218 Old 12-18-2013, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

i seem to remember providing a list of avrs and you focused on one model. well after the fact it was revealed that you were in canada and yet was still insistent that i locate the particular one for a price i never claimed it to be.. seems like you should reread the thread.

I picked that particular model because I was familiar with it as I had done some searching on it earlier that day. You claimed $600-$800 when really that should have been $700-$900. I chose not to comment on the other models as I felt it irrelevant as they basically all said the same story as the Denon.
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i also seem to recall part of this discussion going off into (flawed) testing. would you like me to offer my thoughts on your (flawed) testing?

You could if you want to. I am not asking you to nor is it the topic of this thread.
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i also seem to remember you questioning another members motivations for using a certain denon as a prepro....should i comment on this too?

Yes I asked Bill about him using a Denon as a prepro. If he himself was using that configuration then why would he be questioning my usage of that configuration? Didn't make sense to me and I was making sure he was not being a hypocrite. I tend to discredit and ignore hypocrites. He explained himself, however, and I believe it was a bit of misscommunication between us. I since have answered his questions regarding my testing.
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i also seem to remember you being quite dismissive with advice coming from a couple of qualified knowledgeable members with letters a and f in their names. you seemed to accuse at least one of them to be twisting your words. should i comment on this to?

Those posts I will have to go refresh on.

EDIT: Read through to those posts.

FWM's first recommendation to me was two AVR's that did not include pre outs. arnyk's recommendation was to use a speaker level to line level converter. I know from experience these add complexity and issues that I do not want to deal with.

From there on FWM and arnyk were making generalization statements about AVR's and their users. I do not fit in that generalization and many on here do not fit that generalization.

FWM did suggest room treatment. Which I agree would be a good way for me to go but right now that isn't int the cards and not what I am setting out to do in my other thread or this thread. This point I may have twisted around a bit in my original response. I could have been more objective in my response.

On the other hand phantom52 saw my criteria and actually gave recommendations that met it. Even accepting the fact that i live in Canada instead of saying that's my problem and snubbing me off. He found other deals that were available to Canadians.
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Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

i dont read or comment on every thread on avs. i did see your other thread and chose not to make a comment in it when this thread serves well enough for me to comment in. would you like me to comment in the other?

No that is quite alright. I am abandoning the notion of getting an AVR for under $500 and am changing my gameplan.
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as far as is what is said between me and other posters on this forum, how is that relevant here? and since you are into checking up on my responses to others in other threads, perhaps you should check up on the reputation of the member i made the response to. he has a very "unique" rep, and i might say at least as far as i am concerned, you are quickly developing a unique, albeit different from that other posters, reputation.

I don't really care what his reputation is as our path's have not crossed. I do care that you seem to be taking the same attitude towards me as he does to others and think that is acceptable.

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post #191 of 218 Old 12-18-2013, 08:08 PM
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post #192 of 218 Old 12-18-2013, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Bun-Bun View Post

1. Exactly. Except how can Emotiva and Outlaw do it then?

Emotiva has, IMO, not "done it". At least not in a product that was released that is as bug and issue free as their larger competition (i.e. Harman, Onkyo, Denon, ect ect)
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Emotiva is successful and come out with more processors at different price points and feature sets.

Emotiva's successful and well respected as an amp maker. As mentioned above, the rep with their processors has been (being nice here)..somewhat unsteady. Why is that? Because they don't have the man power or sheer size that a company like Onkyo or Denon has. Again, the bigger companies can offer more features (and pay royalties to those feature manufacturers if need be) such as (but certainly well beyond this) Audyssey because they have the purchasing power, the ability to hire many many employees to punch out the software necessary to run a bug-free machine, and...again..economies of scale play into this as well. They can implement all of these factors into a machine, and do it for less money per unit than the smaller guys could.
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3. You're right. Subjective is subjective.

Preference of speakers is a subjective thing. However, differences in speakers and subs, and how their placement can drastically change how they sound to the listener is a well established fact.
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And maybe I haven't been blessed enough to witness a properly set up sub and room to hear what you are talking about. However based on my experience, and the way I like to listen to music, subs do not sound right compared to tower speakers with large woofers. Also I have never had an issue getting a pair of towers to sound right in a room where as subs have been a constant battle. Sometimes I can get a good placement and other times its a crapshoot. For example my current listening space has ducts running across it mid room with a drop ceiling. Standing/Sitting underneath those ducts, which is where my couch is, receives extremely diminished sub response. Everywhere else in the room sounds good but my critical listening area. When I got my Monitor 11's they fixed the problem. I was able to crossover the sub lower and run them full range. There are times I turn off the sub and just enjoy the towers and I sometimes forget the sub is off. I prefer larger towers handling the lower frequencies.

This might be an avenue for you to give much more though and consideration to. Sub placement is key (like you mentioning your diminished sub response). Heck, speaker placement is key, period.
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post #193 of 218 Old 12-19-2013, 04:11 AM
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[
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

There never were old school towers with 12" woofers that didn't require subs. I owned some of them and when I added a good sub, va-va vooml!

Seriously, there are several very expensive towers (e.g. Revel - $12,000 per pair) with 2 -10 inch woofers which is actually more cone area than a single 12 inch. Based on lab tests they are soundly outperformed below about 150 Hz by a good $300 subwoofer! What a good $1k or $2k subwoofer does to them is not the least bit pretty but it is wonderful to listen to.

Based on what? What kind of lab tests? empirical tests? Subjective listening? what?

Technical tests and listening. I've posted this information several times on AVS with references, Where were you?
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I have never been witness to a system that sounds better with subs vs large towers with large woofers that are amped/crossovered appropriately.

That could be a lack of experience on your part or it could be just your rather obvious and severe biases. I live in a world where technical tests of speakers match up pretty well with what I hear. The technical differences are quite clear and if you understand loudspeaker technology. They are to be expected and they are fully explained by accepted technology.
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Systems with crossover points at 80 Hz and above drive me nutty.

I think that you might be able to achieve that state without the help of crossovers. ;-) Many of your posts are self-centered, disconnected and inconsistent.
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I always feel like something is lacking.

One thing that is missing is bass distortion, particularly at high listening levels. People who grew up on cheap Japanese big box speakers during the late 1900s and musical instrruement speakers often have ears that seem to need muddy, boomy bass to complete their listening experiences.

I built my first 18" subwoofer in the early 1980s and it was clean and flat down to 20 Hz. It was used by the local AES chapter for presentations and demonstrations. So my ears are used to clean, loud, extended bass.
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And the I go listen to the old Technics with 12" woofers and wonder what the hell the industry has been doing the past 15 years.

It's called technical advancement, particularly in the area of price/size/performance. You ought to try it some time. What used to take 18" drivers can now be done with smaller drivers, which is very convenient.
Quote:
And I am speaking from a music listening stand point. Not a HT playing an action movie with explosions perspective.

I'm a live concert recordist with literally thousands of live recordings of various groups to my credit, most based on acoustical instruments and natural voices including large pipe organs, but also with a liberal dose of electronic instruments as well. Bands and choirs hire me and pay me $100s per performance to get a good idea of what they sound like to the audience and so that they can enjoy the music they made.

I know what live music sounds like out where the audience sits which no performer knows about himself for obvious reasons, and I haven't blown my ears to smithereens by being on stage with rock bands with unprotected ears for any amount of time.
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post #194 of 218 Old 12-19-2013, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

Emotiva has, IMO, not "done it". At least not in a product that was released that is as bug and issue free as their larger competition (i.e. Harman, Onkyo, Denon, ect ect)

Exactly. Just like the OP said.
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Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

Emotiva's successful and well respected as an amp maker. As mentioned above, the rep with their processors has been (being nice here)..somewhat unsteady. Why is that? Because they don't have the man power or sheer size that a company like Onkyo or Denon has. Again, the bigger companies can offer more features (and pay royalties to those feature manufacturers if need be) such as (but certainly well beyond this) Audyssey because they have the purchasing power, the ability to hire many many employees to punch out the software necessary to run a bug-free machine, and...again..economies of scale play into this as well. They can implement all of these factors into a machine, and do it for less money per unit than the smaller guys could.

Exactly. Which is why I hope they are successful or the big guys start helping fill this void.
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Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

Preference of speakers is a subjective thing. However, differences in speakers and subs, and how their placement can drastically change how they sound to the listener is a well established fact.

Yes, I believe I already agreed to this.
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Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

This might be an avenue for you to give much more though and consideration to. Sub placement is key (like you mentioning your diminished sub response). Heck, speaker placement is key, period.

I do not disagree with you.

However, over the past 10 years I have spent far more time fighting with sub placement than I have tower placement. For example my current room I spent a good deal of time seeking outside advice on fixing my sub placement issues in my room. I tried it everywhere. And at the end of the day I stuck it in the corner, got the paradigm mic kit, and got the Monitor 11's. Took me 3 trys and 2 hours to get good placement of my towers vs the week I spent on trying to get the sub right.
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Technical tests and listening. I've posted this information several times on AVS with references, Where were you?

Have you seen my post count?
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

That could be a lack of experience on your part or it could be just your rather obvious and severe biases. I live in a world where technical tests of speakers match up pretty well with what I hear. The technical differences are quite clear and if you understand loudspeaker technology. They are to be expected and they are fully explained by accepted technology.

I do not disagree it could be a lack of experience. I went a long time thinking no sealed sub enclosure could sound good.

And I think you better clarify your last statement. Basically you are saying you understand acoustical physics which is an extremely bold statement.
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I think that you might be able to achieve that state without the help of crossovers. ;-) Many of your posts are self-centered, disconnected and inconsistent.

Please direct me to where I have been inconsistent in my posting. I would be glad to clarify.
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

One thing that is missing is bass distortion, particularly at high listening levels. People who grew up on cheap Japanese big box speakers during the late 1900s and musical instrruement speakers often have ears that seem to need muddy, boomy bass to complete their listening experiences.

I built my first 18" subwoofer in the early 1980s and it was clean and flat down to 20 Hz. It was used by the local AES chapter for presentations and demonstrations. So my ears are used to clean, loud, extended bass.

Mind coming down from your high horse? Think you're better than anyone?

While I do not necessarily disagree with your statement, I do not belong in that generalization. I grew up seeking the latest and greatest and finding what sounds best to me. I have built my own speakers and my own subs in the past. My last box is a 4x10" 7^3ft ported enclosure tuned to 32hz driven by a 1300w amp. My systems are always commented on to how "clean" they sound. My next box I want to do something more advanced than just a simple ported enclosure. Rythmik technology intrigues me and I would like to build a sub based on their drivers.
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

It's called technical advancement, particularly in the area of price/size/performance. You ought to try it some time. What used to take 18" drivers can now be done with smaller drivers, which is very convenient.

Try what sometime? I have the latest version of Paradigms monitor line. I have auditioned many different new speakers and I still go back to the old Technics for something's. There is one pair of wharfdales that I really like that have 12" woofers. Over $10k though. Be a long time before I can afford them; if I can ever justify to myself spending that kind of coin on speakers.
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I'm a live concert recordist with literally thousands of live recordings of various groups to my credit, most based on acoustical instruments and natural voices including large pipe organs, but also with a liberal dose of electronic instruments as well. Bands and choirs hire me and pay me $100s per performance to get a good idea of what they sound like to the audience and so that they can enjoy the music they made.


I know what live music sounds like out where the audience sits which no performer knows about himself for obvious reasons, and I haven't blown my ears to smithereens by being on stage with rock bands with unprotected ears for any amount of time.

Nice to know your background.

I work in design, manufacturing and IT. I specialize in quality control of manufacturing processes and design/implementation of corporate computer networks.

I will finish off by saying again. Subjective is subjective.

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Originally Posted by Bun-Bun View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

Emotiva has, IMO, not "done it". At least not in a product that was released that is as bug and issue free as their larger competition (i.e. Harman, Onkyo, Denon, ect ect)

Exactly. Just like the OP said.

So you agree that emo has not done it? but in post #189 you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bun-Bun 
1. Exactly. Except how can Emotiva and Outlaw do it then? surely these larger companies could also move into the new century and fill the void. I live and breathe design and manufacturing. I know it can be done. Hopefully Emotiva is successful and come out with more processors at different price points and feature sets.

as a response to the comments made in post #187:
Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 
1. The OP and his/her supporters want a lower cost receiver with pre-outs and no amp. In theory, this would be possible. Less material should cost less to manufacture. This is true, but that's not the whole picture.

and you question Arnyk's assessment :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnyk 
Many of your posts are self-centered, disconnected and inconsistent.

I agree that you seem to be "all over the place" with your posts.
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post #196 of 218 Old 12-19-2013, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bun-Bun View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

One thing that is missing is bass distortion, particularly at high listening levels. People who grew up on cheap Japanese big box speakers during the late 1900s and musical instrruement speakers often have ears that seem to need muddy, boomy bass to complete their listening experiences.

I built my first 18" subwoofer in the early 1980s and it was clean and flat down to 20 Hz. It was used by the local AES chapter for presentations and demonstrations. So my ears are used to clean, loud, extended bass.

Mind coming down from your high horse?

What high horse?
Quote:
Think you're better than anyone?

The fact that you needed to even ask that question is a lot more about you than I.
Quote:
While I do not necessarily disagree with your statement, I do not belong in that generalization. I grew up seeking the latest and greatest and finding what sounds best to me. I have built my own speakers and my own subs in the past. My last box is a 4x10" 7^3ft ported enclosure tuned to 32hz driven by a 1300w amp.

Sounds like MI.

My first 18" sub was in a 14 cube ported box tuned to 22 Hz. with a slight bump up to get flat at 20 Hz. It was so efficient that I often used it with a 12 wpc amp, even though it could take the better part of a killowatt no sweat.
Quote:
My systems are always commented on to how "clean" they sound. My next box I want to do something more advanced than just a simple ported enclosure. Rythmik technology intrigues me and I would like to build a sub based on their drivers.
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

It's called technical advancement, particularly in the area of price/size/performance. You ought to try it some time. What used to take 18" drivers can now be done with smaller drivers, which is very convenient.

Try what sometime? I have the latest version of Paradigms monitor line. I have auditioned many different new speakers and I still go back to the old Technics for something's. There is one pair of wharfdales that I really like that have 12" woofers. Over $10k though. Be a long time before I can afford them; if I can ever justify to myself spending that kind of coin on speakers.

OK, that is about your preferences and prejudices, not any such limitations of technology.

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I'm a live concert recordist with literally thousands of live recordings of various groups to my credit, most based on acoustical instruments and natural voices including large pipe organs, but also with a liberal dose of electronic instruments as well. Bands and choirs hire me and pay me $100s per performance to get a good idea of what they sound like to the audience and so that they can enjoy the music they made.


I know what live music sounds like out where the audience sits which no performer knows about himself for obvious reasons, and I haven't blown my ears to smithereens by being on stage with rock bands with unprotected ears for any amount of time.

Nice to know your background.
[/quote]

That would be just part of my background - a more recent part.
Quote:
I work in design, manufacturing and IT. I specialize in quality control of manufacturing processes and design/implementation of corporate computer networks.

Been there, done that starting with mainframes in the 1960s and continuing through modern LANs.
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I will finish off by saying again. Subjective is subjective.

Yeah, and I saw how you dismissed the objective evidence that seemed to run against your prejudices.

If you haven't noticed the thread is going heavily against you, way against you. Do you think that you are that much smarter/better educated than everybody else?

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt! ;-)
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post #197 of 218 Old 12-19-2013, 07:25 AM
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So you agree that emo has not done it? but in post #189 you said:
as a response to the comments made in post #187:
and you question Arnyk's assessment :
I agree that you seem to be "all over the place" with your posts.

Then allow me to clarify.

Emo has successfully made a processor for a reasonable price. IE. it doesn't cost $2k or more for minimal features. For example for $500 on sale right now is the UMC-200. Overall a great value IMO but lacks a few features those seeking a processor or AVR would need. For myself it lacks component in and conversion from component to HDMI. There are ways around this so I may overlook it and go with this unit anyway.

But if Emo, a relatively small company, can produce a processor for under $1000 that even includes room correction and bluetooth, why can't one or all of the larger companies that have more buying power and more resources at their disposal do the same thing? Heck Emo even offers upgrade pricing to purchasers of their previous processors.

Emotiva acquired Sherbourn, so hopefully they are successful and can make more processors at different price points that fit between the UMC-200 and XMC-1.

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post #198 of 218 Old 12-19-2013, 07:34 AM
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What high horse?
The fact that you needed to even ask that question is a lot more about you than I.

The high horse that you seem to think you are better than everyone else with comments such as "It was used by the local AES chapter for presentations and demonstrations. So my ears are used to clean, loud, extended bass." indicating that your experience makes your preference better than mine or anyone elses.
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Sounds like MI.

MI?
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Been there, done that starting with mainframes in the 1960s and continuing through modern LANs.

That's nice.

Actually thinking on this again. If you were working on mainframes in the 60's that would make you... ~70 years old (at the very least 60). Have you had your ears checked lately?
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Yeah, and I saw how you dismissed the objective evidence that seemed to run against your prejudices.

Actually you didn't present any evidence. Just hinted to that you have evidence.
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

If you haven't noticed the thread is going heavily against you, way against you. Do you think that you are that much smarter/better educated than everybody else?

Actually if you look back to a previous post of mine I claimed where I wasn't qualified to explain something. I am not an acoustical engineer nor would I ever claim to be one or that I fully understand the laws of acoustical physics. Nor am I an electrical engineer.

You on the other do seem to think you are that much smarter/better than everyone else on here.
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Denial ain't just a river in Egypt! ;-)

You should read what you write sometimes.

Finally, you do not have my ears or my preferences. That does not make me any better or worse than you simply that our opinions are different.

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post #199 of 218 Old 12-19-2013, 08:08 AM
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There is still this one available from Emotiva/Sherbourne. On sale and there is a thread at this site and Emotiva's. Should do most of what you want. Have no idea what the shipping charges to Canada are though.


http://www.sherbourn.com/collections/theater/products/pt7030

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0172/4516/products/PT7030-9796-1k_1024x1024.jpg?v=1361925819
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There is still this one available from Emotiva/Sherbourne. On sale and there is a thread at this site and Emotiva's. Should do most of what you want. Have no idea what the shipping charges to Canada are though.


http://www.sherbourn.com/collections/theater/products/pt7030

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0172/4516/products/PT7030-9796-1k_1024x1024.jpg?v=1361925819

 

PT-7030: $699

Duties: $45.44
Taxes & Fees: $38.87
Freight: $53.32 UPS Ground

Total: $836.63

 

Quote from emotiva. Been trying to decide whether or not to get it. 

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In addition to the many reasons already mentioned as to why the addition of a subwoofer to pretty much any system is a good idea, there is also the fact that a sub can be positioned in the room optimally for bass reproduction taking into account room modes. This is impossible with front speakers, regardless of their LF capacity, as they are forced to be located up front for imaging. This is rarely the best place for the subwoofer. 



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post #203 of 218 Old 12-19-2013, 09:14 AM
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Guys, I think you are dealing with an argumentative troll. Probably best to let it go.
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post #204 of 218 Old 12-19-2013, 09:31 AM
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In addition to the many reasons already mentioned as to why the addition of a subwoofer to pretty much any system is a good idea, there is also the fact that a sub can be positioned in the room optimally for bass reproduction taking into account room modes. This is impossible with front speakers, regardless of their LF capacity, as they are forced to be located up front for imaging. This is rarely the best place for the subwoofer. 

 

It is sometimes the only place physically feasible. Just saying. 

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Originally Posted by Tkaya View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 

In addition to the many reasons already mentioned as to why the addition of a subwoofer to pretty much any system is a good idea, there is also the fact that a sub can be positioned in the room optimally for bass reproduction taking into account room modes. This is impossible with front speakers, regardless of their LF capacity, as they are forced to be located up front for imaging. This is rarely the best place for the subwoofer. 

 

It is sometimes the only place physically feasible. Just saying. 

 

IME it is very rare for there to be just one place that a sub can be put in, even in the smallest of rooms. It is also stretching credulity (and coincidence) that even if there is only one possible place, that it would happen to be exactly where the main speakers are located. Just saying.



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post #206 of 218 Old 12-19-2013, 09:47 AM
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PT-7030: $699

Duties: $45.44
Taxes & Fees: $38.87
Freight: $53.32 UPS Ground

Total: $836.63

Quote from emotiva. Been trying to decide whether or not to get it. 

Read the threads at Emotiva and here if you haven't already. There is also a review from member Kris Deering.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/sherbourn-pt-7030-surround-processor-pa-7-350-amplifier
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IME it is very rare for there to be just one place that a sub can be put in, even in the smallest of rooms. It is also stretching credulity (and coincidence) that even if there is only one possible place, that it would happen to be exactly where the main speakers are located. Just saying.

 

Sorry, I think maybe I was not as clear as I intended. I meant in some people's setups the front area of the room, not specifically the main speaker locations, is the only feasible place to place a sub. IE. the rest of the room has furniture taking up space and has lots of walking area. 

 

Unless its a small sub that can fit between things nicely. I still like the sub that was built as an end table. Thought that was neat. 

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Read the threads at Emotiva and here if you haven't already. There is also a review from member Kris Deering.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/sherbourn-pt-7030-surround-processor-pa-7-350-amplifier

 

Thanks! I will. 

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post #209 of 218 Old 12-19-2013, 09:54 AM
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1. Exactly. Except how can Emotiva and Outlaw do it then? surely these larger companies could also move into the new century and fill the void. I live and breathe design and manufacturing. I know it can be done. Hopefully Emotiva is successful and come out with more processors at different price points and feature sets.

Go ask 100 people if they've ever heard of Denon or Yamaha receivers. Now ask them if they've ever heard of Emotiva or Outlaw Audio. How many do you think have heard of the first two compared to the the other two. It's all about business and making money. I'm sure manufacturers can do it. It would be fairly easy probably. It just makes no business sense to do so. If this segment of the market that you want is so popular then Emotiva and Outlaw would be a household name like Denon and Yamaha. I don't think the big names will ever want to make a big investment to make a paltry profit that would possibly take decades to recoup investment costs.

I don't know about Outlaw, but Emotiva makes their money in amps. That is what they are known for, not processors. I haven't followed Emotiva much lately, but their first attempts at a pre-pro was what I would consider an utter failure IMO. Release dates were promised and missed numerous times, major issues when it was finally released, denial of said flaws early on by CS, etc. I am not bashing Emo, I actually do like them for what they are, a relatively inexpensive, good quality external amp manufacturer. I have a couple of their amps myself and do recommend them if setup calls for one.

I didn't read every single post in this thread, but I don't think anyone ever said it can't be done. It's just that no large, established company like Denon, Sony, etc will do it because it just makes no business sense. For the price of a low cost receiver with pre-outs and external amp I can get a high end receivers with an internal amp that can power my 9.2 setup.

All that being said, I do see the advantage of what you are asking for though. In the long run it would cost the consumer less if they had separates, but most consumers don't look into long term when it comes to audio. Most are set it and forget it. They just want it to work with the least complications. Just read through the titles of most of the threads on this forum or other forums. People are posting VERY basic questions. Things like how do I connect this to that, what cable do I need, I have this old Bose speaker system I want to connect to my new receiver, I have a bunch of wires coming out of my wall what are they for, etc. Remember, we are the 1% if even that.

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Emo has successfully made a processor for a reasonable price.

But if Emo, a relatively small company, can produce a processor for under $1000 that even includes room correction and bluetooth, why can't one or all of the larger companies that have more buying power and more resources at their disposal do the same thing?

See my reply above. IMO, I would not call Emotiva's foray into the econo pre-pro was what I consider successful. It was released LONG after the announced release date that had been postponed numerous times due to technical issues. Then when they did release it, it was wrought with major issues which their CS denied for a long time.
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Originally Posted by Bun-Bun View Post

But if Emo, a relatively small company, can produce a processor for under $1000 that even includes room correction and bluetooth, why can't one or all of the larger companies that have more buying power and more resources at their disposal do the same thing?

Like I said before, no large company is going to want to invest large amounts of capital investments to try to make a relatively paltry profit on the less than 1% of the potential market. Imagine if one of the major companies went through what Emotiva did with their first pre-pro. That would have been a huge black eye in their reputation. Denon already suffered bad press regarding their xx10 line of receivers, Onkyo suffered from premature failures of HDMI boards for a couple of years. This is coming from large companies making products they have been making for many years now and have a lot of experience in. The risk to them is far too great for a minor potential for minimal profit. Again, these are just my opinions, but companies are not out there to fulfill our or anyone's needs. They are there to make a profit. I have no experience in business, but it just doesn't make sense to me to make a product like this if I was a large, established company trying to increase profits.

I think there's a reason why pre-pros are priced how they are. Very little has to do with cost of manufacturing and more to do with marketing. There was once a time when pre-pros with their higher quality components were indeed better than AVR's, but those days are long gone. I think manufacturers purposely keep the prices artificially inflated to create an air of superiority however false it may be. The people who can afford them are usually not the ones doing extensive analytic research on components. Most have the ill-conceived notion that more expensive equates to better performance. The will walk into shop look at prices and buy the most expensive items in their budget. I remember in one thread, a poster told the OP that he had to replace his $6K speaker wire with a more expensive one because the signal chain had to have at least 20% silver content to perform optimally. These are the people the pre-pros are now marketing for hence the unrealistic prices. That's just my opinion though. No research or facts to back that up. Just mindless drivel from someone who doesn't feel like being productive at work today.
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post #210 of 218 Old 12-19-2013, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Tkaya View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 

 

IME it is very rare for there to be just one place that a sub can be put in, even in the smallest of rooms. It is also stretching credulity (and coincidence) that even if there is only one possible place, that it would happen to be exactly where the main speakers are located. Just saying.

 

Sorry, I think maybe I was not as clear as I intended. I meant in some people's setups the front area of the room, not specifically the main speaker locations, is the only feasible place to place a sub. IE. the rest of the room has furniture taking up space and has lots of walking area. 

 

Unless its a small sub that can fit between things nicely. I still like the sub that was built as an end table. Thought that was neat. 

 

There is a potential for very big swings in bass quality when the sub is placed in the right spot in the room so that it optimally coincides with room modes.  Even if placement options are limited to the front wall, this still gives much more placement flexibility than is possible with the L & R speakers, which have to be placed appropriately for imaging. This flexibility is, in itself, a very good reason to use a sub, even if the front speakers are large-ish towers.

 

In addition, of course, a well-integrated sub will take a lot of the strain off the amplifier driving the main channels and also will relieve the load on the mains too. Bass demands huge amounts of power if it is play both deep and loud (as demanded by many movies these days) and very few (if any) speakers with 'built-in subwoofers' can dig as deep or play as loud as a good dedicated sub from one of the well-regarded sub manufacturers. And even if they could there are still the placement issues to deal with. Certainly, for HT use, I'd consider a sub as absolutely essential, no matter what the main speakers are.

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