Is 70 watts enough for a 30W - 200W into 8Ω on unclipped rated speaker? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 12-15-2013, 12:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello guys,

Just a quick question, my AV Receiver is quite old: model number SR4200 

Which provides 70 watts per channel over 5 channels.

Would having 70 watts for my front speakers be enough, without causing damage?

 

 

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post #2 of 28 Old 12-15-2013, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X1XNobleX1X View Post

Hello guys,
Just a quick question, my AV Receiver is quite old: model number SR4200 
Which provides 70 watts per channel over 5 channels.
Would having 70 watts for my front speakers be enough, without causing damage?
If upgrading is the best option I have found this AV Receiver for $650 which is the Yamaha RX-V2065
The Yamaha RX-V2065 which provides 130W per channel, which as well as having more wattage it has better technology. 
The speakers that I'm talking about are the CM9s by B&W
Newer AVR's have an advanced technology designed to protect the speakers from excessive dirty power, called MVCK. This technology ensures that as soon as any distortion or speaker stress is detected, the volume is reduced until it is no longer present. Manual adjustment of the MVCK circuitry is required, however, it is nearly foolproof. Your current receiver is old, by I am fairly certain it also has this technology. If this technology is used, then there is no danger to your speakers since it will not allow distortion to occur. The only reason to upgrade your AVR is if it doesn't get loud enough for you without distortion or there is a feature that you want. smile.gif

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post #3 of 28 Old 12-15-2013, 02:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post


Newer AVR's have an advanced technology designed to protect the speakers from excessive dirty power, called MVCK. This technology ensures that as soon as any distortion or speaker stress is detected, the volume is reduced until it is no longer present. Manual adjustment of the MVCK circuitry is required, however, it is nearly foolproof. Your current receiver is old, by I am fairly certain it also has this technology. If this technology is used, then there is no danger to your speakers since it will not allow distortion to occur. The only reason to upgrade your AVR is if it doesn't get loud enough for you without distortion or there is a feature that you want. smile.gif

Thank you very much for the response!

How would I check if it does have this technology?

Also would it be best if I did want more wattage to get a amp for the receiver or get a whole new AV Receiver? 

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post #4 of 28 Old 12-15-2013, 02:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X1XNobleX1X View Post

Thank you very much for the response!
How would I check if it does have this technology?
Also would it be best if I did want more wattage to get a amp for the receiver or get a whole new AV Receiver? 

It's easy to tell if you have it. It's a knob on the front of the unit, typically on the left or right, but sometimes center. The acronym MVCK is short for Master Volume Control Knob. biggrin.gif

Also, most AVR'S have enough power for most people, but it depends on your listening habits or how judiciously you use the MVCK.

This calculator can be used to determine how much power you need based on volume you want http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
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post #5 of 28 Old 12-15-2013, 02:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post


It's easy to tell if you have it. It's a knob on the front of the unit, typically on the left or right, but sometimes center. The acronym MVCK is short for Master Volume Control Knob. biggrin.gif

Also, most AVR'S have enough power for most people, but it depends on your listening habits or how judiciously you use the MVCK.

This calculator can be used to determine how much power you need based on volume you want http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

This is the front of my AV Receiver. 

I think the knob you're talking about is on the right. Yes?

Thanks!

sr4200glrg.jpg

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post #6 of 28 Old 12-15-2013, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X1XNobleX1X View Post

This is the front of my AV Receiver. 
I think the knob you're talking about is on the right. Yes?
Thanks!
sr4200glrg.jpg

Correct! biggrin.gif

Although some joking here, my advice is serious. wink.gif

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
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post #7 of 28 Old 12-15-2013, 08:43 AM
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Your old receiver will deliver 70 watts per channel ONLY if ONLY two speakers are connected. Read the ratings.

With 5 speakers connected it will probably deliver about 25 watts per channel. It will also not drive those low-impedance (3 Ohms, per Mfr data sheet)) CM9 speakers very well. But POWER, per se, is NOT the issue! The issue is whether the amplifiers are STABLE enough to provide enough peak CURRENT to those low-impedance speakers.

The only receivers that are actually engineered to deliver adequate current to speakers like those CM9s are made by NAD and Cambridge Audio. The rest all give power ratings that are a bad joke and should be IGNORED! No Yamaha can drive those speakers properly, no matter what phony power rating it has. Their amplifiers are not stable into a low-impedance speaker like the CM9.

If you have $600 to spend, I recommend that you buy the NAD T748 (version 2). The T758 is even better, for $800.

It is the only receiver at that price level that will sound decent with those speakers IMO.






Quote:
Originally Posted by X1XNobleX1X View Post

Hello guys,
Just a quick question, my AV Receiver is quite old: model number SR4200 
Which provides 70 watts per channel over 5 channels.
Would having 70 watts for my front speakers be enough, without causing damage?
If upgrading is the best option I have found this AV Receiver for $650 which is the Yamaha RX-V2065
The Yamaha RX-V2065 which provides 130W per channel, which as well as having more wattage it has better technology. 
The speakers that I'm talking about are the CM9s by B&W
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post #8 of 28 Old 12-15-2013, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Your old receiver will deliver 70 watts per channel ONLY if ONLY two speakers are connected. Read the ratings.

Man it is hard keeping up with your nonsense. How many speakers are connected has nothing to do with anything. How many speakers are drawing current at a given time and the amount of that current at a given time has something to do with it.
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With 5 speakers connected it will probably deliver about 25 watts per channel. It will also not drive those low-impedance CM9 speakers very well. But POWER, per se, is NOT the issue! The issue is whether the amplifiers are STABLE enough to provide enough peak CURRENT to those low-impedance speakers

Probably? Is that something you measured or are you making things up again. I don't know of a 75 watt amplifer, or even a 25 watt amplifier that won't drive those speakers to room filling volume in most home listening rooms. And how would you define "stability" relative to driving those mass market speakers..
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The only receivers that are actually engineered to deliver adequate current to speakers like those CM9s are made by NAD and Cambridge Audio. The rest all give power ratings that are a bad joke and should be IGNORED! No Yamaha can drive those speakers properly, no matter what phony power rating it has. Their amplifiers are not stable into a low-impedance speaker.

Here we go again. You think the major manufacturers are stupid enough that they would design an amplifier incapable of driving a popular mass market speaker. You are simply incorrect.
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If you have $600 to spend, I recommend that you buy the NAD T748 (version 2).

You always do. You have some passion for getting people to buy what you buy as though any other decision is the wrong one. Pretty arrogant.
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It is the only receiver at that price level that will sound decent with those speakers IMO.

Total, complete and utter nonsense. It is an opinion that nobody else shares with you. Perhaps you should consider changing cool aid flavors for a while.
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post #9 of 28 Old 12-15-2013, 09:06 AM
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As an experienced electrical engineer and circuit designer, I understand the concept of amplifer instabilty completely.

It actually occurs mainly because the power supply becomes overloaded and cannot deliver the peak current that the amplifiers are TRYING to deliver to the speakers on transient peaks. It certainly has EVERYTHING to do with how many speakers are connected, because all of the amplifiers draw current from a common power supply, and each additional speaker requires additional current, which increases the possibility of overload and the resulting instability.

If you had the proper education and experience, you would understand that we are talking about AMPLIFIER DESIGN FUNDAMENTALS; yet you act as if there was something questionable about it. You need to understand your limitations better before you get in over your head on a technical matter like this.

I said "probably" because my experience leads me to that approximate number, but only an actual lab test can give an exact value (obviously).




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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Man it is hard keeping up with your nonsense. How many speakers are connected has nothing to do with anything. How many speakers are drawing current at a given time and the amount of that current at a given time has something to do with it.
Probably? Is that something you measured or are making things up again. I don't know of a 75 watt amplifer, or even a 25 watt amplifier that won't drive those speakers to room fill volume. And how would you define "stability" relative to driving those speakers..
Total, complete and utter nonsense. It is an opinion that nobody else shares with you.
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post #10 of 28 Old 12-15-2013, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

As an experienced electrical engineer and circuit designer, I understand the concept of amplifer instabilty completely.

It actually occurs mainly because the power supply becomes overloaded and cannot deliver the peak current that the amplifiers are TRYING to deliver to the speakers on transient peaks.

If you had the proper education and experience, you would understand that we are talking about AMPLIFIER DESIGN FUNDAMENTALS; yet you act as if there was something questionable about it.

I said "probably" because my experience leads me to that approximate number, but only an actual lab test can give an exact value (obviously).

Sorry, I simply don't believe you. An experienced engineer would know better than to spew the nonsense you spew over and over again. My education and experience tells me that almost every single amplifier made today is properly designed and implemented. As long as you keep spewing the misinformation, I will continue challenging it.
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post #11 of 28 Old 12-15-2013, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

As an experienced electrical engineer and circuit designer, I understand the concept of amplifer instabilty completely.

It actually occurs mainly because the power supply becomes overloaded and cannot deliver the peak current that the amplifiers are TRYING to deliver to the speakers on transient peaks. It certainly has EVERYTHING to do with how many speakers are connected, because all of the amplifiers draw current from a common power supply, and each additional speaker requires additional current, which increases the possibility of overload and the resulting instability.

If you had the proper education and experience, you would understand that we are talking about AMPLIFIER DESIGN FUNDAMENTALS; yet you act as if there was something questionable about it. You need to understand your limitations better before you get in over your head on a technical matter like this.

I said "probably" because my experience leads me to that approximate number, but only an actual lab test can give an exact value (obviously).

Determing available power is far more complex...
It depends upon:
1. Bass manager loudspeaker setting, Small or Large; Large is full bandwidth including bass frequencies.
2. DSP mode, certain ones such as Dolby Pro Logic IIx which directs ambience to the L/R surrounds
3. Source material, lossless streams will have more dynamics
4. Room size, wall materials & furnishings
5. Loudspeaker specs, impedance/sensitivity
6. Average SPL listening levels


Just my $0.05... 😉👍
oztech and beaveav like this.
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post #12 of 28 Old 12-15-2013, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Your old receiver will deliver 70 watts per channel ONLY if ONLY two speakers are connected. Read the ratings.

With 5 speakers connected it will probably deliver about 25 watts per channel. It will also not drive those low-impedance (3 Ohms, per Mfr data sheet)) CM9 speakers very well. But POWER, per se, is NOT the issue! The issue is whether the amplifiers are STABLE enough to provide enough peak CURRENT to those low-impedance speakers.

The only receivers that are actually engineered to deliver adequate current to speakers like those CM9s are made by NAD and Cambridge Audio. The rest all give power ratings that are a bad joke and should be IGNORED! No Yamaha can drive those speakers properly, no matter what phony power rating it has. Their amplifiers are not stable into a low-impedance speaker like the CM9.

If you have $600 to spend, I recommend that you buy the NAD T748 (version 2). The T758 is even better, for $800.

It is the only receiver at that price level that will sound decent with those speakers IMO.

Actually if you read the specs. It's 70W X 5

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post #13 of 28 Old 12-15-2013, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

As an experienced electrical engineer and circuit designer, I understand the concept of amplifer instabilty completely.

It actually occurs mainly because the power supply becomes overloaded and cannot deliver the peak current that the amplifiers are TRYING to deliver to the speakers on transient peaks. It certainly has EVERYTHING to do with how many speakers are connected, because all of the amplifiers draw current from a common power supply, and each additional speaker requires additional current, which increases the possibility of overload and the resulting instability.

If you had the proper education and experience, you would understand that we are talking about AMPLIFIER DESIGN FUNDAMENTALS; yet you act as if there was something questionable about it. You need to understand your limitations better before you get in over your head on a technical matter like this.

I said "probably" because my experience leads me to that approximate number, but only an actual lab test can give an exact value (obviously).

I have a question, professor: Why did you disappear from the forums for a while after claiming that an amp's output impedance is related to the size of its power supply transformer and filter caps? Surely an experienced electrical engineer and circuit designer would know better than to make that claim.

But you've dug your hole again. You understand amplifier stability "completely?" Why then did you go on to talk about power supply limitations instead of amplifier stability?

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #14 of 28 Old 12-15-2013, 08:25 PM
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The user manual says 70 watts to each of the five channels...much to my surprise. I didn't see any mention as to what the power rating is with all channels running at the same time. Most receivers post the highest power with two channels running, so if in fact the 4200 will do 70x5 RMS, this is a nice receiver.

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post #15 of 28 Old 12-15-2013, 08:57 PM - Thread Starter
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So in theory you guys think that 70 watts is fine?

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post #16 of 28 Old 12-16-2013, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X1XNobleX1X View Post

So in theory you guys think that 70 watts is fine?

Yes, assuming normal listening levels in a normal home audio environment. Remember that you would have to double the potential power in order to achieve a barely audible increase in undistorted volume. People argue about one amp having 80 watts and another having 100. The difference between the two meaningless. It is the industry that wants you to think it is important - not your ears.
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post #17 of 28 Old 12-16-2013, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

As an experienced electrical engineer and circuit designer, I understand the concept of amplifer instabilty completely.

Interesting. I took PhD level classes in automatic control systems, and I don't think that even the guys who taught me would say that. I should note that my spell checker is pointing out that you misspelled both of the words amplifier and instability, which means that strictly speaking, you don't even know how to spell the words! LOL!.
Quote:
It actually occurs mainly because the power supply becomes overloaded and cannot deliver the peak current that the amplifiers are TRYING to deliver to the speakers on transient peaks.

Reality is that over the audio band a well-designed power amp has 90+ dB of power supply rejection and the power supply itself has these big filter caps that supply most of the current for really large peaks.

Based on watching 100's of power amps clip on my test bench over the last 50+ years with both resistive and loudspeaker-like loads, I don't recall any that became unstable during clipping. This includes some cheap stuff that was pretty marginal. I would call any power amp that became unstable when clipped a POS.
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It certainly has EVERYTHING to do with how many speakers are connected, because all of the amplifiers draw current from a common power supply, and each additional speaker requires additional current, which increases the possibility of overload and the resulting instability.
Quote:
If you had the proper education and experience, you would understand that we are talking about AMPLIFIER DESIGN FUNDAMENTALS; yet you act as if there was something questionable about it. You need to understand your limitations better before you get in over your head on a technical matter like this.

I would say that someone who can't even spell the words right, and makes all sorts of exceptional claims that describe things that are rarely if ever actually seen in real life might be experiencing water up to his chin or above. ;-)
.
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post #18 of 28 Old 12-16-2013, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by X1XNobleX1X View Post

So in theory you guys think that 70 watts is fine?

I've done some measurements on my system which is based on a mid-low end AVR - a Denon 1913.

With average efficiency speakers and powered subwoofers and with an average recording it generates peaks of about 108 dB at 12 feet, or twice the acoustic power required to reach THX-specified peak levels. Since the AVR is a typical ca. 100 wpc unit, it looks like 50 wpc would just barely do the job. BTW 105 dB is pretty loud.
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post #19 of 28 Old 12-16-2013, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post


Determing available power is far more complex...
It depends upon:
1. Bass manager loudspeaker setting, Small or Large; Large is full bandwidth including bass frequencies.
2. DSP mode, certain ones such as Dolby Pro Logic IIx which directs ambience to the L/R surrounds
3. Source material, lossless streams will have more dynamics
4. Room size, wall materials & furnishings
5. Loudspeaker specs, impedance/sensitivity
6. Average SPL listening levels


Just my $0.05... 😉👍

It all looks good to me except the comment about "lossless streams will have more dynamics". Lossy compression with reasonable bitrates has no audible effect on dynamics whatsoever. Of course I recently had my lesson about how people are abusing lossy compression on the web, and what really low bitrates do to music is IMO criminal. Bad dynamics is the least of their problems! :-(
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post #20 of 28 Old 12-16-2013, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

It all looks good to me except the comment about "lossless streams will have more dynamics". Lossy compression with reasonable bitrates has no audible effect on dynamics whatsoever. Of course I recently had my lesson about how people are abusing lossy compression on the web, and what really low bitrates do to music is IMO criminal. Bad dynamics is the least of their problems! :-(

Take a listen to some of the 192kHz 24 WAV source material like from Chesky..

Here is the link..
http://www.chesky.com/19mawavdi.html

These will push an audio amplifier pretty hard, don't think you will find any MP3 or AAC stream to compare even @ hi bit rates..

Just my $0.05.... 👍😉
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post #21 of 28 Old 12-16-2013, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post


Yes, assuming normal listening levels in a normal home audio environment. Remember that you would have to double the potential power in order to achieve a barely audible increase in undistorted volume. People argue about one amp having 80 watts and another having 100. The difference between the two meaningless. It is the industry that wants you to think it is important - not your ears.

 

 

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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post


Correct! biggrin.gif

Although some joking here, my advice is serious. wink.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


I've done some measurements on my system which is based on a mid-low end AVR - a Denon 1913.

With average efficiency speakers and powered subwoofers and with an average recording it generates peaks of about 108 dB at 12 feet, or twice the acoustic power required to reach THX-specified peak levels. Since the AVR is a typical ca. 100 wpc unit, it looks like 50 wpc would just barely do the job. BTW 105 dB is pretty loud.

 

What do you guys think about the Denon-AVR890
Has HDMI, TRUE HD. 105 Watts P/C. A big step up from my older receiver. 
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Originally Posted by X1XNobleX1X View Post


What do you guys think about the Denon-AVR890
Has HDMI, TRUE HD. 105 Watts P/C. A big step up from my older receiver. 

You buyiing used? Does not appear to be a current model.
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post #23 of 28 Old 12-16-2013, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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You buyiing used? Does not appear to be a current model.

Yes, its used

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post #24 of 28 Old 12-16-2013, 12:55 PM
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If it has the features you want and the price is right, I can't see a reason why not.

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
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post #25 of 28 Old 12-16-2013, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Espo77 View Post

The user manual says 70 watts to each of the five channels...much to my surprise. I didn't see any mention as to what the power rating is with all channels running at the same time. Most receivers post the highest power with two channels running, so if in fact the 4200 will do 70x5 RMS, this is a nice receiver.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

If it has the features you want and the price is right, I can't see a reason why not.

 

 

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


You buyiing used? Does not appear to be a current model.

 

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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

If it has the features you want and the price is right, I can't see a reason why not.

 

Managed to pick up a pretty good receiver the Marantz SR6001 for $350

100 Watts and all the technology I need. My only question does this amp bi-amp. I think from what I understand from the manual it does by switching the C center switch to on. But it mostly talks about bi-wiring. 

Can anyone verify this?

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post #26 of 28 Old 12-16-2013, 08:13 PM
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Don't waste your money on the wire to bi-anything. It won't make ANY difference. None. One wire, one speaker.

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
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post #27 of 28 Old 12-16-2013, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Don't waste your money on the wire to bi-anything. It won't make ANY difference. None. One wire, one speaker.

I have some spare speaker wire. Might as well try it. 

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post #28 of 28 Old 12-16-2013, 08:17 PM
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Hey, if it makes you feel better, go for it. You might even be able to capitalize on the placebo effect - good as the real thing!

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
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