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Old 12-29-2013, 05:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Ive been trying to decide if I should buy a receiver and add an amplifier or just spend the money on a better receiver that I can afford. Something like this---- An Arcam AVR360 + 200 watt amp or just an Arcam600 with no amp. I know that there are differences in sound processing with a better receiver, but how much difference would the extra power of an amp make when pushing quality full range speakers. I do not play very loud but Ive been hearing that having a large amount of power on hand can greatly improve the sound. What would you do? All opinions are welcome.
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Old 12-29-2013, 06:07 AM
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It depends on the speakers you have, how far away you sit from them and whether or not you want to be able to listen at movie reference sound levels.

Most audiophile speakers have sensitivities in the vicinity of 87dB and can't handle the power needed to get them to deliver reference level (105dB peaks) at a typical listening distance of 10 ft (3 meters). They'll be damaged if you try. Harman/Crown provides a calculator which will tell you how much power you need. See http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

FWIW, in an untreated room, people often listen to movies at about 20dB below reference.

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Old 12-29-2013, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the response Selden Ball. Just like most people, I keep the volume around 16-20db below reference. I was more concerned about how the extra power would effect the quality of sound. Especially with audio peaks during movies. What would you do if this was your decision? Additional amplification or just the best receiver you could afford?
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Old 12-29-2013, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misterguy View Post

Thank you for the response Selden Ball. Just like most people, I keep the volume around 16-20db below reference. I was more concerned about how the extra power would effect the quality of sound. Especially with audio peaks during movies. What would you do if this was your decision? Additional amplification or just the best receiver you could afford?

Both smile.gif

Quality of electronics usually should be secondary to the quality of speakers and careful room treatments.

All amps have a slight amount of distortion. Typically it's at a minimum when they're driven at about 1/2 of their maximum power rating, and climbs rapidly into audibility when they have to deliver more than about 3/4 of their max. (That's very glib. Different designs have different distortion profiles.) So to that extent, more power is better, so long as you don't exceed the maximum power rating of your speakers. (That's where the Harman/Crown calculator can be very useful.)

Receivers with room equalization software can, to a large extent, make up for infelicities in the speakers and room, although EQ isn't a panacea. As best I can determine, Arcam does not yet provide any form of room EQ. That's a serious omission in the current market.

The top end of the receivers (and pre/pros) made by D&M Holdings (Denon & Marantz) include the best currently available version of Audyssy room EQ, Audyssey MultEQ XT32. Its results are audibly better than the next lower grade of Audyssey, XT. People argue over how well it compares to the ARC room EQ provided by Anthem or the results that manual EQ yields when using products from miniDSP. I have not yet seen any serious comparisons (showing spectrum analysis results) with the room EQ products provided by McIntosh and a few other high-end companies or the add-on products like Trinnov. I also have not seen any measurements of the results of the proprietary EQ software products used by Sony or Harman-Kardon. Pioneer and Yamaha are "out of the running" because their EQ products ignore the subwoofer. An external subwoofer EQ product needs to be used with them.

I hope these comments help a little.

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Old 12-29-2013, 03:49 PM
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It truly all depends on so many factors. I can tell you from my own experience that my speakers sounded dramatically different after adding a separate two channel parasound a21 amplifier, rather than using my denon 3312 to power them. I noticed more depth, larger and more detailed sound stage, better separation. i did an A/B between the denon and the parasound with 3 friends and we all went away with the same thoughts. I can tell you that I don't listen much over 80db, it was not wattage/ clipping issue. Now i will say i did have an acurus a250 amplifier powering my mains before the parasound a21 and the difference was not as huge going from the acurus to the parasound but it was worth it enough to me to purchase the parasound. Food for thought, a cheap power amp vs a decent receiver id pick the receiver all day long.

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Old 12-29-2013, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscorv58 View Post

It truly all depends on so many factors. I can tell you from my own experience that my speakers sounded dramatically different after adding a separate two channel parasound a21 amplifier, rather than using my denon 3312 to power them. I noticed more depth, larger and more detailed sound stage, better separation. i did an A/B between the denon and the parasound with 3 friends and we all went away with the same thoughts. I can tell you that I don't listen much over 80db, it was not wattage/ clipping issue. Now i will say i did have an acurus a250 amplifier powering my mains before the parasound a21 and the difference was not as huge going from the acurus to the parasound but it was worth it enough to me to purchase the parasound. Food for thought, a cheap power amp vs a decent receiver id pick the receiver all day long.

These impressions result from sighted comparisons that suffer from hearing bias. Amplifiers, by the way, have nothing to do with soundstage. Depth has no meaning at all. Modern amplifiers have good enough stereo separation that it wouldn't be possible to hear a difference in separation from one to the other. It is all magazine reviewer prose. I wouldn't pay much attention to it.

OP, the required power is whatever it takes to drive the speakers to the desired SPL without clipping. In my system and listening room that is less than 1 one watt on avera 18 watts on peaks. In yours it may be different. Let me know if you need to do some calculation and I'll walk you through it.
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Old 12-29-2013, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

These impressions result from sighted comparisons that suffer from hearing bias. Amplifiers, by the way, have nothing to do with soundstage. Depth has no meaning at all. Modern amplifiers have good enough stereo separation that it wouldn't be possible to hear a difference in separation from one to the other. It is all magazine reviewer prose. I wouldn't pay much attention to it.

I truly wish that I could agree with you, i'd gladly return all of my amplifiers and receiver and purchase a denon 2313.

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Old 12-29-2013, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Chriscorv58 View Post

I truly wish that I could agree with you, i'd gladly return all of my amplifiers and receiver and purchase a denon 2313.

The process is a bit fussy, I'll admit. You would need to conduct a bias controlled listening test. After you did that you would agree with me. But nobody does that and I don't expect you to either. Best of luck.
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Old 12-29-2013, 09:24 PM
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Hope 'Misterguy' does not mind that I take advantage of his thread to ask a few questions on 'How important is power'? I am new in HT, and need help from Selden Ball, Chriscorv58, FMW, etc..... A 'long time lurker'. Please do not hesitate to write in simple and straight terms. I have a 5.1 set up with a HARMAN KARDON AVR 1700 (95 watts per channel - two channels driven @ 8 ohms, 20 - 20kHz, <0.07% THD), fronts are Klipsch RF82, C is Klipsch RC62, rears are Klipsch RVX54, and Klipsch RW12D). They are connected with RCA 14 AWG Speaker Wire, 50 ft long each. They have been balanced with the Audyssey which comes with the HK AVR 1700. My ambition is to maximize the performance potential of these set of 'used Klipschs' in an untreated room of 32' x 14' x 8'h with an used EMOTIVA UPA 5 of '5x 200 watts per channel' . The previous spkrs owner, BroBe, had a top of the line 'audio receiver + amp system'; I am afraid I cannot match his dedication.

Most audiophile speakers have sensitivities in the vicinity of 87dB and can't handle the power needed to get them to deliver reference level (105dB peaks) at a typical listening distance of 10 ft (3 meters). They'll be damaged if you try. Harman/Crown provides a calculator which will tell you how much power you need. See http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

FWIW, in an untreated room, people often listen to movies at about 20dB below reference.

Selden Ball:
Q1. How do I dial up to +85 dB (=105 - 20) when the HK AVR 1700 has a manufacturer volume dial range of (-80 dB) to +8 dB? (My default volume setting is at -40 dB. I double the speaker volume by dialing up to -37 dB; 4x vol. by dialing to -34 dB; 8x vol. by dialing up to -31 dB, etc...).

Q2. Does the HK AVR 1700 has sufficient POWER to drive these 6 Klipsch speakers? Based on the provided web calculator, "1 watt power" is the calculated 'Required Amplifier Power' [ with 'Listener Dist from Source 3 M', '85 dBSPL', 'Loudspkr Sensitivity Rating 97 dB @ 2.83V / 1m', and 'Amplifier Headroom @ 3 dB'.]

Q3. How are " watt (Required Amplifier Power) related to dBSPL (Desired Level at Listener distance) ", results from the web calculator are as follow:

Watts........01......09.......11......14.......18.......23.......28.........57..........90..........113..........143..........180....
dBSPL......85.......92.......93......94.......95......96.......97.........100.......102..........103..........104..........105.....

Q4. Would my ambition of having "a more up scale receiver + EMOTIVA UPA 5 with 5 x 200 watts per channel" be an overkill for a home theater set up for a room size of 32' x 14' x 8'h?

Q5. In order to make these 6 Klipsch speakers to perform at their best level, what power rating receiver should I match them with? (From AVSForum reviews, 55 watts per channel is the realistic HK AVR 1700 power output, not the advertised 95 watt per channel.)



Chriscorv58

and purchase a denon 2313.
Q6. Is this Denon 2313 ci a good choice because it does not have any 'pre-outs for the 5', but pre-out for subwoofer?
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Old 12-29-2013, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 2007rookie View Post

Hope 'Misterguy' does not mind that I take advantage of his thread to ask a few questions on 'How important is power'? I am new in HT, and need help from Selden Ball, Chriscorv58, FMW, etc..... A 'long time lurker'. Please do not hesitate to write in simple and straight terms. I have a 5.1 set up with a HARMAN KARDON AVR 1700 (95 watts per channel - two channels driven @ 8 ohms, 20 - 20kHz, <0.07% THD), fronts are Klipsch RF82, C is Klipsch RC62, rears are Klipsch RVX54, and Klipsch RW12D). They are connected with RCA 14 AWG Speaker Wire, 50 ft long each. They have been balanced with the Audyssey which comes with the HK AVR 1700. My ambition is to maximize the performance potential of these set of 'used Klipschs' in an untreated room of 32' x 14' x 8'h with an used EMOTIVA UPA 5 of '5x 200 watts per channel' . The previous spkrs owner, BroBe, had a top of the line 'audio receiver + amp system'; I am afraid I cannot match his dedication.

Most audiophile speakers have sensitivities in the vicinity of 87dB and can't handle the power needed to get them to deliver reference level (105dB peaks) at a typical listening distance of 10 ft (3 meters). They'll be damaged if you try. Harman/Crown provides a calculator which will tell you how much power you need. See http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

FWIW, in an untreated room, people often listen to movies at about 20dB below reference.

Selden Ball:
Q1. How do I dial up to +85 dB (=105 - 20) when the HK AVR 1700 has a manufacturer volume dial range of (-80 dB) to +8 dB? (My default volume setting is at -40 dB. I double the speaker volume by dialing up to -37 dB; 4x vol. by dialing to -34 dB; 8x vol. by dialing up to -31 dB, etc...).

Q2. Does the HK AVR 1700 has sufficient POWER to drive these 6 Klipsch speakers? Based on the provided web calculator, "1 watt power" is the calculated 'Required Amplifier Power' [ with 'Listener Dist from Source 3 M', '85 dBSPL', 'Loudspkr Sensitivity Rating 97 dB @ 2.83V / 1m', and 'Amplifier Headroom @ 3 dB'.]

Q3. How are " watt (Required Amplifier Power) related to dBSPL (Desired Level at Listener distance) ", results from the web calculator are as follow:

Watts........01......09.......11......14.......18.......23.......28.........57..........90..........113..........143..........180....
dBSPL......85.......92.......93......94.......95......96.......97.........100.......102..........103..........104..........105.....

Q4. Would my ambition of having "a more up scale receiver + EMOTIVA UPA 5 with 5 x 200 watts per channel" be an overkill for a home theater set up for a room size of 32' x 14' x 8'h?

Q5. In order to make these 6 Klipsch speakers to perform at their best level, what power rating receiver should I match them with? (From AVSForum reviews, 55 watts per channel is the realistic HK AVR 1700 power output, not the advertised 95 watt per channel.)



Chriscorv58

and purchase a denon 2313.
Q6. Is this Denon 2313 ci a good choice because it does not have any 'pre-outs for the 5', but pre-out for subwoofer?

UPA 5 is 5 x 125 w/ch at 8 ohms, not sure why you think its 200 w/ch? Even at 4 ohm it isn't rated but 180? Your RW12d is an active subwoofer; i.e. it is not using the amp from your avr or separate amp, just needs a pre-amp out to connect. You'll need to associate your own needs for power to a given spl as to how that relates (or try something like this http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TableOfSoundPressureLevels.htm). Your avr would need to be calibrated with an spl meter, if the avr doesn't provide for such internally, so you can determine proper reference level on your master volume control; if your avr is indeed calibrated then 0 is reference level (85 db average with 20 db of headroom http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-technology/thx-reference-level/).

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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Old 12-29-2013, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

These impressions result from sighted comparisons that suffer from hearing bias. Amplifiers, by the way, have nothing to do with soundstage. Depth has no meaning at all. Modern amplifiers have good enough stereo separation that it wouldn't be possible to hear a difference in separation from one to the other. It is all magazine reviewer prose. I wouldn't pay much attention to it.

OP, the required power is whatever it takes to drive the speakers to the desired SPL without clipping. In my system and listening room that is less than 1 one watt on avera 18 watts on peaks. In yours it may be different. Let me know if you need to do some calculation and I'll walk you through it.

Or there may be real differences with using a receiver's pre-out section with power amps versus internal amplification, in other words, you might actually be getting a significantly worse measuring output with the typically low quality external pre-amp section of a home theater receiver (as most of them clip well below 1Vrms), and the end user somehow interprets the audibly different performance as "better" because it's different, even though it's objectively worse than using the internal amplifiers.
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Old 12-30-2013, 03:10 AM
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Or there may be real differences with using a receiver's pre-out section with power amps versus internal amplification, in other words, you might actually be getting a significantly worse measuring output with the typically low quality external pre-amp section of a home theater receiver (as most of them clip well below 1Vrms), and the end user somehow interprets the audibly different performance as "better" because it's different, even though it's objectively worse than using the internal amplifiers.

The only difference could be clipping and clipping is really fairly rare in home audio.
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Old 12-30-2013, 03:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you everyone for the great input and thank you Selden Ball for taking the time to explain that. Dont worry, I understand the quality of your speakers makes a big difference and I have some decent speakers. Chriscorv58 really hit the nail on the head bringing up some of my key concerns. I constantly hear people stating that amplification can really open up your speakers and make them sound and feel bigger and warmer (if you know what Im trying to say). Even if you do not play very loud. Obviously experimenting with different equipment would be best, but I do not have access to that right now. Then there are other people who feel that extra amplification is not needed as long as your receiver can play loud enough without clipping. Just trying to figure out which way i should go with my money but this might be one of those subjects where everyone has a different opinion. Thank you again to everyone who gave input.
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscorv58 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

These impressions result from sighted comparisons that suffer from hearing bias. Amplifiers, by the way, have nothing to do with soundstage. Depth has no meaning at all. Modern amplifiers have good enough stereo separation that it wouldn't be possible to hear a difference in separation from one to the other. It is all magazine reviewer prose. I wouldn't pay much attention to it.

I truly wish that I could agree with you, i'd gladly return all of my amplifiers and receiver and purchase a denon 2313.

I took a slightly different approach - put all of my separates into a store room and purchased a Denon 1913.

FMW is in touch with some of the realities of life vis-a-vis listening:

(1) Most of us listen with our brains, not our ears.

(2) The brain is the most powerful organ in our body.

(3) When the brain's beliefs do not agree with the stimulus, it generally follows its beliefs. We call those situations illusions and life is full of them.

It is the rare individual indeed who goes through the trouble to convince themselves they need a bigger amplifier, goes through the time and expense to obtain and install the bigger amplifier, and does not perceive a benefit. Most of those amplifiers never deliver more power than their predecessor.

If you reduce the experience of comparing various amplifiers to just listening by doing a careful experiment and controlling the strongest biases, the usual outcome is that there is no audible difference.

Audiophiles generally do not have the slightest clue as to how much amplifier power they need or are using. The exception would be those audiophiles whose amplifiers have clipping indicators or accurate peak power meters. Audiophiles usually claim that "They can tell" but why is it that as a class its amplifiers for professional use that have the clipping indicators or accurate peak power meters, because they are a more reliable indication of power than the professional's ears.
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by misterguy View Post

T I constantly hear people stating that amplification can really open up your speakers and make them sound and feel bigger and warmer (if you know what Im trying to say).

To make that statement honestly, the writte would have had to obtain the new more power amplfier(s), and then his opinions can be weighted by the fact that these statements are just him drinking his own cool aid.
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Even if you do not play very loud.

That pretty well proves that we're talking about belief and not reliably observable fact. All you accomplish by running a power amp well below its rated output is waste your investment in more power. The distortion in modern amps usually does not even increase over the middle power range, and at any level below clipping even any increases that are observed at higher power levels aren't audible:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/musical-fidelity-ams100-power-amplifier-measurements



The absolutely most sensitive listen test for nonlinear distortion puts the threshold of audibility around 0.05-0.1% so this amp has no audible distoriton up to 80 or so watts, but the distortion and noise are decreasing at all levels up to about 55 watts.
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Obviously experimenting with different equipment would be best, but I do not have access to that right now.

Been there done that many times and those experiences inform this post.
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Then there are other people who feel that extra amplification is not needed as long as your receiver can play loud enough without clipping.

They know the relevant facts.
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Just trying to figure out which way i should go with my money but this might be one of those subjects where everyone has a different opinion. Thank you again to everyone who gave input.

(1) Figure out how much power you need to play your system at the highest levels that you prefer.

(2) If you do not already have adequate amplifcation, obtain it.

Most people jump to step 2.
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

These impressions result from sighted comparisons that suffer from hearing bias. Amplifiers, by the way, have nothing to do with soundstage. Depth has no meaning at all. Modern amplifiers have good enough stereo separation that it wouldn't be possible to hear a difference in separation from one to the other. It is all magazine reviewer prose. I wouldn't pay much attention to it.

I truly wish that I could agree with you, i'd gladly return all of my amplifiers and receiver and purchase a denon 2313.

 

This is one of the big benefits of actually learning some of the science behind the subject. Once someone understands why modern SS amps which are not broken and which are working within their design tolerances and not being driven into clipping exhibit no audible differences in bias-removed tests, there is the large potential to save quite a lot of money and to then spend that money on things that actually do make a difference to the sound quality - speakers and the room broadly.

 

If you were able to take part in some properly conducted ABX tests you would discover what the others who have undertaken such tests have already discovered: that you will not be able to differentiate between the amplifiers under test (so long as they are SS amps which are not broken etc etc, see above) with any more reliability than random chance.

 

This discovery is one of the true 'eureka moments' in audio. Once the discovery has been made, you can indeed eschew expensive, 'audiophile' amps and either rely on a decent, modern AVR from one of the mainstream manufacturers, or - if you have a genuine case for requiring additional power (eg difficult speakers, enormous SPLs or whatever) - you can choose an amplifier from a company such as Emotiva, safe in the understanding that their 200 watt per channel amp will 'sound' exactly the same as the $10,000 amp from one of the 'audiophile' brands. And you will have saved in excess of $9,000!

 

Modern amplifiers are easy to produce - everything that is required to know has been known for decades now. All of them, of the sort we are discussing in this thread - (ie not $10 Chinese amps from a cheap radio etc), have the ability to send a signal from input to output with no change to the signal other than its amplitude.  All of them have distortion levels well below the threshold of human audibility. You can find the measurement graphs to support these statements online everywhere - I suggest the Audioholics reviews as a good place to start.

 

So yes. Dig deeper, ignore the biased reviews of magazines which depend for their survival on manufacturer support via advertising, ignore the 'advice' of 'high end' retailers who have a vested financial interest in getting you to believe what is essentially mumbo-jumbo, ignore even the 'evidence of your own ears', because in an uncontrolled, sighted test, you will surely hear differences - but the differences are a result of how the test is being performed not a result of actual differences in the equipment under test. If you google 'auditory memory' you will see why a test where it takes more than a few seconds to swap sources is not valid. If you google for how small level differences affect perceived sound quality, you will find that levels need to be matched to ±0.1dB for the test to be valid, otherwise the 'louder' unit is almost always preferred, even though we cannot consciously discern level differences as small as 0.1dB.

 

With the understanding as to why amps are relatively unimportant components in the audio chain comes the freedom to spend the money saved where it will really make a big difference to the SQ you achieve and the enjoyment your system will ultimately bring you. Good luck with all this. It is not easy and can take considerable time.

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Old 12-30-2013, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

UPA 5 is 5 x 125 w/ch at 8 ohms, not sure why you think its 200 w/ch? Even at 4 ohm it isn't rated but 180? Your RW12d is an active subwoofer; i.e. it is not using the amp from your avr or separate amp, just needs a pre-amp out to connect. You'll need to associate your own needs for power to a given spl as to how that relates (or try something like this http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TableOfSoundPressureLevels.htm). Your avr would need to be calibrated with an spl meter, if the avr doesn't provide for such internally, so you can determine proper reference level on your master volume control; if your avr is indeed calibrated then 0 is reference level (85 db average with 20 db of headroom http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-technology/thx-reference-level/).
1.My mistake in typing "UPA 5 (125w x5)" while I intended to put down "XPA 5 (200W x5)".....2. As RW12d is an active subwoofer, would connecting it to the "subwoofer slot on the back panel of 'EMOTIVA XPA 5' cause undesirable interference?.......3. I'll visit the two web sites later on today........4. Assuming that my HK AVR 1700 has factory predelivery 'calibrated with an spl meter', the " 0 " on the volume dial with range from "(-80 dB) to +8 dB" would be the factory default " 0 reference level (85 dB average with 20 dB of headroom ". Is this the concept?....5. Or I have to conduct the 'calibration with an spl meter' at home by a qualified personnel? .... Thanks lovinthehd, I am learn something new. The AVSForum is a great resource site for me in the last few years, and in the future.
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Old 12-30-2013, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Chriscorv58 View Post

I truly wish that I could agree with you, i'd gladly return all of my amplifiers and receiver and purchase a denon 2313.

I guess I owe you an apology for being brusk. I didn't have a lot of time when I wrote what wrote. What I wrote was correct but probably not delivered in the best way possible. I will defer to KBarnes' explanation above which is well written and delivered in a much less bruk manner than my post was. The entire high end audio industry exists because of hearing bias. Making comparisons without hearing bias is fussy, time consuming and boring. Few people go through with it, including members of the high end industry itself. I'm not criticizing your equipment. I'm just trying to help people make more informed decisions. Take care.
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Old 12-30-2013, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow these last post were great. Very good stuff. I'm still going to vist some more demo rooms but I'm kind of leaning towards buying a nice Anthem or Arcam receiver. My subwoofer should take most of the load anyway as opposed to running my speakers full. I just cannot understand how extra power would change anything but the lows and that is why I am leaning towards putting my money towards better processing. Well see, but you guys are awesome and I appreciate the help.
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Old 12-30-2013, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

To make that statement honestly, the writte would have had to obtain the new more power amplfier(s), and then his opinions can be weighted by the fact that these statements are just him drinking his own cool aid.
That pretty well proves that we're talking about belief and not reliably observable fact. All you accomplish by running a power amp well below its rated output is waste your investment in more power. The distortion in modern amps usually does not even increase over the middle power range, and at any level below clipping even any increases that are observed at higher power levels aren't audible:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/musical-fidelity-ams100-power-amplifier-measurements



The absolutely most sensitive listen test for nonlinear distortion puts the threshold of audibility around 0.05-0.1% so this amp has no audible distoriton up to 80 or so watts, but the distortion and noise are decreasing at all levels up to about 55 watts.
Been there done that many times and those experiences inform this post.
They know the relevant facts.
(1) Figure out how much power you need to play your system at the highest levels that you prefer.

(2) If you do not already have adequate amplifcation, obtain it.

Most people jump to step 2.

But we don't know how that THD breaks down to, I would imagine 0.05% high odd order distortion would be much more audible/noticeable than 0.05% low even order distortion. Some amp reviewers will actually break down how the amp measures in its full distortion profile with curves for each order of distortion, while others just run a 1KHz tone like S&V with THD all clumped together into a single measurement.
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Old 12-30-2013, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by 2007rookie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

UPA 5 is 5 x 125 w/ch at 8 ohms, not sure why you think its 200 w/ch? Even at 4 ohm it isn't rated but 180? Your RW12d is an active subwoofer; i.e. it is not using the amp from your avr or separate amp, just needs a pre-amp out to connect. You'll need to associate your own needs for power to a given spl as to how that relates (or try something like this http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TableOfSoundPressureLevels.htm). Your avr would need to be calibrated with an spl meter, if the avr doesn't provide for such internally, so you can determine proper reference level on your master volume control; if your avr is indeed calibrated then 0 is reference level (85 db average with 20 db of headroom http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-technology/thx-reference-level/).
1.My mistake in typing "UPA 5 (125w x5)" while I intended to put down "XPA 5 (200W x5)".....2. As RW12d is an active subwoofer, would connecting it to the "subwoofer slot on the back panel of 'EMOTIVA XPA 5' cause undesirable interference?.......3. I'll visit the two web sites later on today........4. Assuming that my HK AVR 1700 has factory predelivery 'calibrated with an spl meter', the " 0 " on the volume dial with range from "(-80 dB) to +8 dB" would be the factory default " 0 reference level (85 dB average with 20 dB of headroom ". Is this the concept?....5. Or I have to conduct the 'calibration with an spl meter' at home by a qualified personnel? .... Thanks lovinthehd, I am learn something new. The AVSForum is a great resource site for me in the last few years, and in the future.

1. Try paragraphs, easier to read (and proofread). XPA 5 noted, additional 2 dB headroom or so, if that's worth it to you for the money.

2. What subwoofer slot? What's a slot? You mean pre-out (usually an RCA unbalanced or XLR type balanced)? Why would a power amp have a pre-out at all? Do you need rather an integrated amp?

3. OK

4. Factory can't preset the MV calibrated to your speakers. Does the AVR have Audyssey or other room correction? Usually calibration is part of such routine.

5. You're not qualified to hold and read an spl meter? If you can use the internet you can do that. Plenty of information here in the forums on how to do so. Check out the FAQs/sticky threads.

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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