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post #61 of 81 Old 07-11-2014, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dftkell View Post
I wanted to come back to this thread to ask for some opinions on two measurements I've taken in my small home theater room. (Not the speakers in my signature, those speakers have recently been upgraded.)

Red is using two subwoofers in the best locations I could determine, with a 60hz crossover to the mains. No EQ.

Blue is using Audyssey MultiEQ XT in the same setup.

Red vs Blue can give a look at how they compare without and with Audyssey.

Which of these two is preferable?

It looks like Audyssey helps smooth our the FR below 300hz, but at the same time it also lifts everything from about 3K up. I'm not sure if lifting the higher frequencies is better than having a gradual drop-off.

Thanks!
Dan
Your findings are precisely why I dislike what audyssey does. Harman studies even shows that a slightly sloping response is MUCH preferred over a dead flat response. As others have said though, if your ears like that type of sound better, then that is your preference. It just isn't mine

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post #62 of 81 Old 07-11-2014, 12:16 PM
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Dirac is the bomb, IMO. I love the flexibility of fine tuning the target curves and correction range and rapid a/b testing between curves. My ears love the results, compared to Audyssey (even xt32). Aside, from the great tunability, I think that their impulse response correction may work as advertised. I haven't verified that with measurements, though.

This has been the first time I have been really happy with EQ >400hz, and felt like it was a real improvement, not a step back.

I do prefer Audyssey XT32 with midrange comp disabled over nothing, but there do seem to be some trade offs. With Dirac, it seems like it's all good news, once you find the target curve and frequency ranges for correction that work best for your room.
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post #63 of 81 Old 07-11-2014, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Your findings are precisely why I dislike what audyssey does. Harman studies even shows that a slightly sloping response is MUCH preferred over a dead flat response. As others have said though, if your ears like that type of sound better, then that is your preference. It just isn't mine

I had read the same findings about Harman and a gently sloping FR. What I wonder about that is why their speakers measure and are designed to be ruler flat instead of having the gradual slope.

Looking at the graphs, do you consider the improvement in bass response to be significant with Audyssey?


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post #64 of 81 Old 07-11-2014, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
Our ears are the final judge in what sounds better, not graphs.

Yes, but Toole's research indicated that the majority of listener's prefer a smooth/flat FR.


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post #65 of 81 Old 07-11-2014, 12:49 PM
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Somewhat, but it would be interesting if adjusting the distance setting of your subwoofer whether you could fix that slight dip area without the need for the audyssey's EQ. I know for a fact that changing the distance of the sub almost always improves the crossover region which is where your problem area would seem to appear. The best way I have found to do this is to switch the polarity of your subs and adjust the distance until you see the absolute worst crossover region response. Once you find that, flip your polarity back to normal and you will have found the best setting.

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post #66 of 81 Old 07-11-2014, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Somewhat, but it would be interesting if adjusting the distance setting of your subwoofer whether you could fix that slight dip area without the need for the audyssey's EQ. I know for a fact that changing the distance of the sub almost always improves the crossover region which is where your problem area would seem to appear. The best way I have found to do this is to switch the polarity of your subs and adjust the distance until you see the absolute worst crossover region response. Once you find that, flip your polarity back to normal and you will have found the best setting.

I'll try that. I have two subs. One is centered on the front wall and the other is on the rear wall near the corner. They are not equal distances away from the MLP, so I was just going with what the Audyssey mic came up with since I wasn't sure what to enter.

Thanks.


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post #67 of 81 Old 07-11-2014, 01:15 PM
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With two subs the process will be a little more difficult, what is your crossover to the subs currently set at btw?

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post #68 of 81 Old 07-11-2014, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dftkell View Post
I had read the same findings about Harman and a gently sloping FR. What I wonder about that is why their speakers measure and are designed to be ruler flat instead of having the gradual slope.

Looking at the graphs, do you consider the improvement in bass response to be significant with Audyssey?


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You have to think about speaker response in three dimensions. A speaker that measures flat on axis will pretty much always have a sloping response in a room because of the contributions of off-axis sound and increasing air absorbtivity.
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post #69 of 81 Old 07-11-2014, 03:17 PM
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Yep, most designs are done for a flat FR for groundplane and anechoic measurement, once in room, the automatic room gain of putting the speaker into an enclosed space (of basically any size short of a gymnasium) will cause the bottom end to tilt up. The top end can be handled with proper room treatment and speaker placement. So much care is taken to get this preferred slope, and then audyssey goes and makes it flat again (for the most part) and is why some including myself don't prefer it.

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post #70 of 81 Old 07-11-2014, 05:40 PM
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Should we be recommending Audyssey so much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post
You have to think about speaker response in three dimensions. A speaker that measures flat on axis bbwill pretty much always have a sloping response in a room because of the contributions of off-axis sound and increasing air absorbtivity.

SS, the new speakers I'm using are custom designs using the KEF Q100 Uni-q driver mated with an 8" woofer. Sort of a poor-man's R300. Not as sophisticated as the Uni-q in your Kef LS50's in your signature, but it's a great driver that measures very well considering it's price.


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Last edited by dftkell; 07-11-2014 at 07:29 PM.
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post #71 of 81 Old 07-11-2014, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dftkell View Post
SS, the new speakers I'm using are custom designs using the KEF Q100 Uni-q driver mated with an 8" woofer. Sort of a poor-man's R300. Not as sophisticated as the Uni-q in your Kef LS50's in your signature, but it's a great driver that measures very well considering it's price.


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That's a really good design. The Q100 is quite good actually and high-passing the uni-q can only help things more.

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Living room: Panasonic TC-P60VT60, 3 KEF LS50, Pioneer SW-8, Marantz NR1603
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post #72 of 81 Old 07-11-2014, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
With two subs the process will be a little more difficult, what is your crossover to the subs currently set at btw?
Without Audyssey, 60hz. It yielded a better FR than 80hz.

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post #73 of 81 Old 07-11-2014, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dftkell View Post
I wanted to come back to this thread to ask for some opinions on two measurements I've taken in my small home theater room. (Not the speakers in my signature, those speakers have recently been upgraded.)

Red is using two subwoofers in the best locations I could determine, with a 60hz crossover to the mains. No EQ.

Blue is using Audyssey MultiEQ XT in the same setup.

Red vs Blue can give a look at how they compare without and with Audyssey.

Which of these two is preferable?

It looks like Audyssey helps smooth our the FR below 300hz, but at the same time it also lifts everything from about 3K up. I'm not sure if lifting the higher frequencies is better than having a gradual drop-off.

Thanks!
Dan
Do you have anything you can use as a PEQ? I'd put a reasonably low q filter at around 6 khz and keep the Audyssey settings, as it seems to be helping the bass with minimal damage elsewhere.

Theater room: Sony VPL HW30ES, DIY 100" screen with Seymour Centerstage XD, 5 Revel M105, 2 JBL Studio 210, 4 SVS SB12-NSD, Anthem MRX-300
Living room: Panasonic TC-P60VT60, 3 KEF LS50, Pioneer SW-8, Marantz NR1603
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post #74 of 81 Old 07-12-2014, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post
Do you have anything you can use as a PEQ? I'd put a reasonably low q filter at around 6 khz and keep the Audyssey settings, as it seems to be helping the bass with minimal damage elsewhere.
Currently I don't have any type of PEQ, except for the one band I have on my DIY subs with Dayton plate amps. But that doesn't do anything that high. I've been reading about different options, but frankly it's a little confusing and I have no experience with it.

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post #75 of 81 Old 07-12-2014, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dftkell View Post
SS, the new speakers I'm using are custom designs using the KEF Q100 Uni-q driver mated with an 8" woofer. Sort of a poor-man's R300. Not as sophisticated as the Uni-q in your Kef LS50's in your signature, but it's a great driver that measures very well considering it's price.


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Soundfield Audio M1?

I really enjoy mine.

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post #76 of 81 Old 07-12-2014, 08:31 AM
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Soundfield Audio M1?

I really enjoy mine.

I was able to purchase three of the KEF q100 drivers and I asked AJ if he would build passive versions of the M1's for me. AJ is a really nice and super-talented guy. The speakers are awesome. I'll be posting beauty shots soon in the KEF and Soundfield Audio forum.


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post #77 of 81 Old 07-12-2014, 08:54 AM
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The only PEQ I have is the HT system, anti-mode. The AV pre doesn't have any EQ
In the Hifi I don't use PEQ.

Both subs have own PEQ but I don't have anyway to measure the room response accurately.

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post #78 of 81 Old 07-12-2014, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dftkell View Post
I was able to purchase three of the KEF q100 drivers and I asked AJ if he would build passive versions of the M1's for me. AJ is a really nice and super-talented guy. The speakers are awesome. I'll be posting beauty shots soon in the KEF and Soundfield Audio forum.


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Sweet.

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post #79 of 81 Old 07-12-2014, 09:54 AM
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Very interesting argument and a good read. I'm afraid I'm pretty naive when it comes to speaker technology so most of this is over my head but your cliff notes are the exact reasons I don't use room correction in my 5.1 system which consists of modest bookshelf speakers, a 10" sub and dipole rears. In fact, I saved myself hundreds with my last receiver purchase as I bought based strictly on amplifier needs (which are minute) and not a list of costly features I would never use. I do 'old fashioned' (or should I say po'?) room balancing with a sound meter and my ears to adjust positioning and speaker level. Hardly scientific but I've been happy with the results.

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post #80 of 81 Old 07-12-2014, 12:09 PM
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And that is certainly all that matters

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post #81 of 81 Old 07-12-2014, 06:47 PM
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I just went from a Yamaha 765 version of YPAO (working with an SVS as-eq1) to an Onkyo 929 version of xt32. In my room, which has a fair amount of treatment, YPAO is (subjectively) (much) better than no-EQ, and xt32 is (subjectively) (much) better than YPAO.

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