Another on the fence - Denon or Yamaha - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 14 Old 01-14-2014, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi, I'm a new member and looking for advice to finalize my decision on a new AVR. I currently have a somewhat dated HK 230, which is a 50 wpc 6.1 receiver. I have no real complaints about it, except that it is somewhat technically outdated and it is time for a refresh.

I recently upgraded my speakers to Polk RTi8 fronts, a CSi4 center and will be adding a pair of F/Xi3 surrounds. I am using a crummy Infinity HTS20 sub and will soon be replacing it with a modest upgrade to a Dayton Sub 1200, Bic F12 or similar. I will be running a 5.1 setup for the foreseeable future. My use is 75% home theatre / 25% music in a family room environment.

I have narrowed my AVR replacement down to a few Denon or Yamaha models (X1000/1713, 475/473, or 675/673) . My sticking point on the decision seems to be very common: Audyssey / YPAO vs brand reputation for reliability.

Please help me to determine if I should lean towards the apparent superiority of Audyssey room correction or Yamaha's reputation as a step up in quality.
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post #2 of 14 Old 01-14-2014, 10:14 AM
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Look at the AVR below and its price. With the AVR's in your budget range I doubt that the room eq will matter much. As for reliability Yamaha is second to none.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882115377&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-na-_-na-_-na&cm_sp=&AID=10446076&PID=6146852&SID=1nblsghug0pef
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post #3 of 14 Old 01-14-2014, 10:24 AM
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In my experience, going from your current AVR to the current Yamaha AVRs would involve a noticeable step down in sound quality.

Your current receiver probably can not put out 50 WPC to all channels at once (more like 30 or so), but it does have good sound quality.

According to the Harman-Kardon website, the 230 is a 7.1 receiver, by the way.

I would suggest the Denon X2000 or, for the very best sound quality, the NAD T758.

IMO Yamaha has really cheaped out on the amplifier sound quality in recent years, and I recommend against Yamaha, Pioneer, and Sony for their poor sound quality.

Denon and Marantz are fairly good, and NAD and Cambridge Audio are VERY good.
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post #4 of 14 Old 01-14-2014, 10:26 AM
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If you're happy with Yamaha avr, and feel comfortable with them I suggest to stay with the brand, not much fuzzing around. Updating an AVR usually re-energize the excitement for the hobby like nothing else, besides speakers.
You don't want to fee frustrated about usual interface, and sound differences that you might not be use to.

BUT if you want to venture out, and try something different, and willing to take the time to learn the in and outs, I say go with a Denon, which have been great for me.

Good luck

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post #5 of 14 Old 01-14-2014, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks all for the replies thus far

Phantom, a great deal no doubt but even the X1000 and 475 has all the features and power I'd want or need

Commsys, I realize the 50w output is at best a 2 channel spec. I rarely find I am pushing it past -25db levels especially when the wife is home. I think I have adequate headroom so a modest bump to 80-90 wpc should be all I might need. Again just looking for a more modern piece of equipment. At $900-1000 the NAD isn't going to happen. I know the HK has respectable SQ but am surprised to read the x75 would be a step down.

DJoel, I also have a much older Denon that I was very happy with but no DD and I lost the remote which is $50 to replace! So if anything a yamaha would be something new.

Please keep em coming...
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post #6 of 14 Old 01-14-2014, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

IMO Yamaha has really cheaped out on the amplifier sound quality in recent years, and I recommend against Yamaha, Pioneer, and Sony for their poor sound quality.

These are your favorite reviews...

http://www.soundandvision.com/category/av-receiver-reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The review by "What Hi-Fi" says that the sound quality is very good on the ...

This is a source for some reviews that are very critical if the sound quality of a unit is not up to par.

You can depend on what they say, in my experience.

http://awards.whathifi.com/awards/2013/home-cinema-amplifiers
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post #7 of 14 Old 01-14-2014, 11:47 AM
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Your HK 230 might actually bench test at 7 x 50. I know my HK 325 definitely did and it came out the previous year before the HK 230. I'm trying to dig up the archived review but I know it bench tested more than its posted specs in 2 channel, 5 channel and 7 channel testing.

I never heard the Yamaha linked on Newegg but do like the feature set. the 7.1 preouts is real nice to have in case you want to add more power from an external amp later.

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post #8 of 14 Old 01-14-2014, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCA2011 View Post

Hi, I'm a new member and looking for advice to finalize my decision on a new AVR. I currently have a somewhat dated HK 230, which is a 50 wpc 6.1 receiver. I have no real complaints about it, except that it is somewhat technically outdated and it is time for a refresh.

I recently upgraded my speakers to Polk RTi8 fronts, a CSi4 center and will be adding a pair of F/Xi3 surrounds. I am using a crummy Infinity HTS20 sub and will soon be replacing it with a modest upgrade to a Dayton Sub 1200, Bic F12 or similar. I will be running a 5.1 setup for the foreseeable future. My use is 75% home theatre / 25% music in a family room environment.

I have narrowed my AVR replacement down to a few Denon or Yamaha models (X1000/1713, 475/473, or 675/673) . My sticking point on the decision seems to be very common: Audyssey / YPAO vs brand reputation for reliability.

Please help me to determine if I should lean towards the apparent superiority of Audyssey room correction or Yamaha's reputation as a step up in quality.

 

I have never seen a proper test to determine how well Audyssey performs compared with YPAO (or, for that matter, Pioneer's MCACC).  But not having any real facts does not stop most people from having opinions about which is better.  I would trust them all to generally get distance and levels right, but not crossover points.

 

I would go with Yamaha.  But no one is going to be able to reasonably tell you that Denon is a bad choice.  There are other good choices, too.  But I would go with Yamaha, and have done so.


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post #9 of 14 Old 01-14-2014, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post

I have never seen a proper test to determine how well Audyssey performs compared with YPAO (or, for that matter, Pioneer's MCACC).  But not having any real facts does not stop most people from having opinions about which is better.  I would trust them all to generally get distance and levels right, but not crossover points.

I would go with Yamaha.  But no one is going to be able to reasonably tell you that Denon is a bad choice.  There are other good choices, too.  But I would go with Yamaha, and have done so.

I always wonder too. This is the test I have done last week. A Denon AVR-2112CI with KEF Q700 and did a test by running Casino Royale on Blu-ray (Highest tier AQ) then I connected my new Pioneer Elite SC-67 to the KEF Q700 with the Advance MCACC. My impression was with the same audio/same room/same speaker, the Pioneer Elite SC-67 performed better on all aspect. It might be due more to the quality of the receiver than the room correction. No one can really tell but I was really impressed with MCACC. Don't get me wrong MultiEQ XT was great. I am sure if I had the XT32 version it would have probably be as good as the MCACC.
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post #10 of 14 Old 01-14-2014, 01:43 PM
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I've used YPAO in its varying forms and have always liked what it did with my equipment. I've also used Audyssey Multi-EQ XT and it was ok to me but that could have been due to the Onkyo 876. IMO not as good as the Yamaha's. My favorite Eq program so far has been the EZ Set/EQ II in my H/K 7550HD. It seemed to more for my room than either of the others. Haven't tried Multi-EQ XT32 as there have been no AVR's with it that interest me. Both the H/K and Yamaha A3000 both still work as advertised at this time. For reliability I feel that the Yamaha will last until I again get that damn upgrade bug bite. For the OP if reliability is at the top of your list then my bet goes to Yamaha.
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post #11 of 14 Old 01-14-2014, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Symtex View Post

I always wonder too. This is the test I have done last week. A Denon AVR-2112CI with KEF Q700 and did a test by running Casino Royale on Blu-ray (Highest tier AQ) then I connected my new Pioneer Elite SC-67 to the KEF Q700 with the Advance MCACC. My impression was with the same audio/same room/same speaker, the Pioneer Elite SC-67 performed better on all aspect. It might be due more to the quality of the receiver than the room correction. No one can really tell but I was really impressed with MCACC. Don't get me wrong MultiEQ XT was great. I am sure if I had the XT32 version it would have probably be as good as the MCACC.

I completely had a different experience. Recently I started looking for a receiver for the very first time. I started with SONY 840. Didn't like the sound quality and the HDMI also started giving problem just within couple of days. Then I exchanged it and bought Marantz SR6008 (yeah I know, a very long jump from $300 receiver to the $1K ;-). The Audyssey MultEQ was good with the room correction and calibration (fyi.. I live in an apartment, and I have everything setup in the open living room). But, then I went back to Best Buy, and grabbed Denon AVR X-4000, it was $200 less than the MSRP. The new MultEQ XT32 completely blew me away with what it did with the room correction. My speaker never sounded that awesome. I returned the Marantz SR6008. In the mean time, I thought lets try other receiver and see how other does with at least room correction. I ordered Pioneer Elite SC-72. The advance MCACC took almost 10 minutes to get everything in place. I had to manually change the front and surround speakers to small and set the X.over to 80. Too bad it does for all speakers. Then I read the MCACC thread and tried their method of manually making some adjustments and running MCACC again. When I played Skyfall Blu ray on PS3, with the same volume level as Denon, it didn't sound quite that good. The sound from Denon makes you feel like watching the movie and even listening songs, as the sound almost surrounds you. With Pioneer I was missing all those detail sounds and especially from surround speakers. Though Pioneer has lots of features that can do some good with the audio, but, it still didn't make me feel the punch that I was getting from Denon. I returned Pioneer and kept Denon. I'll definitely purchase Pioneer receiver, if they can make MCACC as good as Audyssey MultEQ XT32 or better. MCACC and Audyssey MultEQ might be neck to neck, but when it comes to XT32, it's far ahead when it comes to automatic room calibration.

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post #12 of 14 Old 01-14-2014, 09:09 PM
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I had to manually change the front and surround speakers to small and set the X.over to 80. Too bad it does for all speakers. Then I read the MCACC thread and tried their method of manually making some adjustments and running MCACC again.

I'm pretty sure you had to change your speakers to small after running Audyssey also unless you have satellite speakers. I know I did on Denon receivers with Audyssey Mult EQ or MultEQ XT.

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post #13 of 14 Old 01-14-2014, 10:28 PM
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I had to manually change the front and surround speakers to small and set the X.over to 80. Too bad it does for all speakers. Then I read the MCACC thread and tried their method of manually making some adjustments and running MCACC again.

I'm pretty sure you had to change your speakers to small after running Audyssey also unless you have satellite speakers. I know I did on Denon receivers with Audyssey Mult EQ or MultEQ XT.

Nope. I didn't have to change the speaker to small on denon with audyssey multEQ XT32. As for speakers I have defTech promonitor 1000 for front and surround and procenter 1000 for center channel. But my major point was that Audyssey performed, especially the XT32 version found on Denon X4000 better when it comes to balancing the sound than MCACC. In fact I also tried Pioneer SC-1523-K just to see if THX select 2 will make things better. But it still disappointed me. Now it's waiting for the UPS to be picked up and send it back to Amazon.

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post #14 of 14 Old 01-15-2014, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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The more I think about it I find I am leaning towards a Denon x1000 or 1713. One point I did not mention is I am in a rewards program that I can right now redeem for a FREE V475. And, I am not far away from having enough points for an X1000 and a little more than that for the 675. But I realize I have not pulled the trigger on the lower Yamaha model. So I guess the little voice in my head is whispering "Denon." I also find I keep going back to the A4L 1713 refurbs as they pop up for a mere $279.

Yes, I think there is a Denon in my future
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