Is This Even Possible? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 17 Old 01-17-2014, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ousooner2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 2,118
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 86
I've got an issue and I can't figure out what the cause is. I'll try to keep this short and sweet. Here's what I'm working with:

EMP e55ti (and e56ci; e5bi's)
Denon 1712 (from A4L)


When I use my SPL meter, using 1/3 octave pink noise from a Alan Parsons disc or Autosound discs or whatever.....I'm getting HUUUGE dropoffs up top. They 'sound' normal when MultEQ XT does it's thing and boosts it, but without EQ they sound like they have 10 blankets over them. There is in fact something coming out of the tweeter without EQ applied, so I know they're on/working/etc...obviously. Here's my posts from recent about the issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post

So for awhile now I've been wondering why my AVR is having to boost my top end so much.....and why I feel like I'm not getting any lower end content (40hz and under) in my room. I felt maybe I'm just expecting too much bass that low and just went with it, not to mention I don't get to listen or watch movies as much as I used to. So today I had some free time and wanted to use my Radioshack SPL meter to gather some data.

Test Disc/Tracks: Alan Parsons Soundcheck Disc -- Pink Noise 20hz to 20kHz (in 1/3 octave steps)

So lets move on to whatever the heck is happening to my top end. I will not that while I was doing this using a reference tone at 1kHz @ 75dB I heard something odd from the left e55ti tweeter. I can't recall the frequency, but it was obviously around 2kHz+.....anyways, I heard an odd noise. This has happened before to me if anyone recalls this and I thought I had fixed it by just tightening the tweeter screws. I guess not. It makes a high pitched noise and when I press on the sides of the tweeter faceplate it goes away. It's ringing or something. It sounds like ringing. So no telling what that's about or if that could be the issue causing THIS problem below:


This is with Audyssey MultEQ DISABLED so it's just the e55's and Denon 1712
1kHz: 75dB
1.25k: 71.5
1.6k: 66
2k: 59
2.5k: 57
3.15k: 65
4k: 78
5k: 78
6.3k: 53
8k: 44
10k: 41
12.5k: 42
16k: 43
20kHz: 43dB


Yes.....it goes from 75dB at 1kHz to 59dB at 2kHz at my listening position. And slightly lower by 2.5kHz! Then back up by 4kHz...and then DROPS OFF A TABLE at 6.3kHz!!! That's a 25dB swing from 5kHz to 6.3kHz eek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gif I played the same list WITH AUDYSSEY SET TO FLAT and had slightly different dB's, but the EXACT same trend. Falling from 1.25kHz to 1.6kHz and ramping up again at 4kHz and falling again from 5kHz to 6.3kHz.

I thought maybe my SPL meter was getting messed up by listening from 12ish feet away at the main listening position so I did some measurements from about 1' away:

Pink Noise
5kHz: 81dB
6.3kHz: 68dB

Sine Waves
5kHz: 83dB
6.3kHz: 51dB



I have no idea what's going on.....eek.gif



Gene's in-room measurement for Audioholics review:



What my in-room measurement would look like in my room from 5kHz to 8kHz and out to 20kHz (applied to gene's curve; -25dB from 5k to 6.3k and another -9dB from that to 8k)





Could this be a result of a defective AVR? I don't remember these sounding this 'dull' on my Yamaha 663 (no eq applied; same room). I would think it 'could' be the speakers, but it's boosting the crap out of EACH of the 5 speakers up top. Not just the mains. Can anyone please help? My AVR warranty runs out tomorrow, though I've been contacting A4L for a month now trying to get them to contact me & they won't. Pretty shady, but I've got record of it so I'll call Denon directly. Anyways, any help is greatly appreciated!

Panny 65st60 / Denon X1000 / EMP e55ti / EMP e56ci / EMP e5bi / (2) e1010i
ousooner2 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 17 Old 01-17-2014, 09:14 AM
Member
 
mjd420nova's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 162
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Yes, this could be a pre stage driver failure of the Denon. I hope you are successful with cust service.
mjd420nova is offline  
post #3 of 17 Old 01-17-2014, 09:26 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,387
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 762 Post(s)
Liked: 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post


What my in-room measurement would look like in my room from 5kHz to 8kHz and out to 20kHz (applied to gene's curve; -25dB from 5k to 6.3k and another -9dB from that to 8k)


Could this be a result of a defective AVR? I don't remember these sounding this 'dull' on my Yamaha 663 (no eq applied; same room). I would think it 'could' be the speakers, but it's boosting the crap out of EACH of the 5 speakers up top. Not just the mains. Can anyone please help? My AVR warranty runs out tomorrow, though I've been contacting A4L for a month now trying to get them to contact me & they won't. Pretty shady, but I've got record of it so I'll call Denon directly. Anyways, any help is greatly appreciated!

First step would be to do a hardware reset of the microprocessor of the AVR - the service manual is usually required to find out the magic keystrokes for this.
arnyk is offline  
post #4 of 17 Old 01-17-2014, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ousooner2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 2,118
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjd420nova View Post

Yes, this could be a pre stage driver failure of the Denon. I hope you are successful with cust service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

First step would be to do a hardware reset of the microprocessor of the AVR - the service manual is usually required to find out the magic keystrokes for this.


Thanks guys! I'll do a reset tonight and contact Denon today to at least get the process started if I need it. I can't believe how poorly this has been treated by Accessories4Less. I have literally contacted them 4 times and left multiple messages. Nobody will call or e-mail me back. Incredible. mad.gif

Panny 65st60 / Denon X1000 / EMP e55ti / EMP e56ci / EMP e5bi / (2) e1010i
ousooner2 is offline  
post #5 of 17 Old 01-18-2014, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ousooner2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 2,118
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 86
I reset the microprocessor. Twice just to make sure.....but it's still reading the same dB's on my SPL meter. At first I thought it sounded normal again, but I was just listening to a good recording. Still sounds very recessed to my ears. Maybe I've gotten used to Audyssey flattening the top end of these speakers. I know they're pretty neutral, but could use a little bump up top according to all the other measurements I've seen of these EMP Impression series speakers.

Not sure what to do now. Try another AVR (I'd have to go buy one, which is kind of a pain; I'd assume they'd return it, but that would suck if they didn't..have to make sure they would) or send the AVR off. I'd hate to pay for shipping to them and nothing be wrong. Is it possible the SPL meter is messed up? I'm not sure how I would test that.

Also, I'm just using 1/3 octave pink noise. Shouldn't the levels/dB's remain constant across each frequency or do I need to look for something that's like a pink noise @ constant power/voltage or something like that?

Panny 65st60 / Denon X1000 / EMP e55ti / EMP e56ci / EMP e5bi / (2) e1010i
ousooner2 is offline  
post #6 of 17 Old 01-20-2014, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ousooner2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 2,118
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 86
Purchased a new SPL meter at Radioshack. It might have just made me more confused lol

* Yes, batteries were swapped from the new one, to the old one and back again to make sure readings were not off due to low or bad battery. Readings were the same no matter which battery was used (had 3 different brands of 9v)


OLD SPL Meter--NEW SPL Meter

2k: 56dB-56dB
3k: 60dB-55dB
4k: 73dB-54dB
5k: 72dB-52dB
6k: 52dB-45dB
8k: 43dB-41dB
10k: 40dB-38dB

The results are obviously blatantly different. These measurements were taken with the mics 'bodies' touching, at the same height, at the MLP about 11-12' away. Holding them about 6-8" from the tweeter height from the L/R speakers showed that the results were still skewed from OLD mic to NEW mic. At 6.3kHz there was an 8dB difference with the OLD mic being 8dB higher than the new mic. At 8kHz, very little difference, which shows it's reading the same from 6-8" as it is at 11-12 feet away.

SO!...it's possible the OLD mic is messed up. That still doesn't explain the HUGE dropping off of frequencies. I went into manual EQ in Audyssey and it will only apply UP TO a 6dB BOOST. I know boosting isn't 'good' and cutting is preferred, but it's boosting each speaker quite a lot (5-6dB's in the treble and through the upper midrange it's getting about 2-4dB's of boost). Doing this manually and you can tell it's sounds more clear. I know you're probably thinking that I might just prefer a 'bright' top end, but even MultEQ XT is doing it so I don't think it's 'incorrect' per say.


Anyone? Should I go ahead and send my AVR (denon 1712) in for repair (already have the place lined up for the warranty work; just have to pay for shipping to them), should I contact EMP,....any idea's? HEEEELP biggrin.gif

Panny 65st60 / Denon X1000 / EMP e55ti / EMP e56ci / EMP e5bi / (2) e1010i
ousooner2 is offline  
post #7 of 17 Old 01-21-2014, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ousooner2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 2,118
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 86
So I purchased a Denon x1000 to try out. Results from listening and pink noise.....same thing.

SPL meter confirmed on pink noise at least.

Denon 1712 - Denon X1000

4kHz: 54dB - 54dB
10kHz: 38dB - 39dB



So that means that these speakers in my room are almost 20dB down at 10kHz from 2kHz. Does that seem normal to anyone? lol. I know it's tappered off that much because MultEQ XT bumps the top end up to +6.0dB's in places. Above 4-5kHz it's boosting by 4.5+ dB's. Again, this same trend can be seen when the SPL meter is placed at tweeter height roughly 8" from the speaker so it's not a room issue.

Playing test tones using my WDTV-Live connected to my PC. Using pink noise tracks from the Alan Parsons Soundcheck disc (something like tracks 10-38 I believe). I'm not sure what else to try. I have both AVR's here and my SPL meter. Access to plenty of other discs, pink noise, sine waves, etc.

I understand that the speakers might have a slightly rolled off top end, which is somewhat known, but to be almost 20dB down from 2kHz to 10kHz when doing NEAR FIELD measurements? I can understand a boost due to room size or the speakers actually needing it a little to be "FLAT" according to Audyssey, but I don't think it can boost more than 6dB's (...a good thing) and if it could then I bet it would if it's measuring what I'm measuring (aka....needing 15+ dB's up top). I'm about to just say F it and enjoy it with Audyssey engaged on my 1712. Not send it in or anything. I have no clue what's going on. lol.

Panny 65st60 / Denon X1000 / EMP e55ti / EMP e56ci / EMP e5bi / (2) e1010i
ousooner2 is offline  
post #8 of 17 Old 01-21-2014, 05:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
grasshoppers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: aridzona
Posts: 1,898
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 211 Post(s)
Liked: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post

So I purchased a Denon x1000 to try out. Results from listening and pink noise.....same thing.

SPL meter confirmed on pink noise at least.

Denon 1712 - Denon X1000

4kHz: 54dB - 54dB
10kHz: 38dB - 39dB



So that means that these speakers in my room are almost 20dB down at 10kHz from 2kHz. Does that seem normal to anyone? lol. I know it's tappered off that much because MultEQ XT bumps the top end up to +6.0dB's in places. Above 4-5kHz it's boosting by 4.5+ dB's. Again, this same trend can be seen when the SPL meter is placed at tweeter height roughly 8" from the speaker so it's not a room issue.

Playing test tones using my WDTV-Live connected to my PC. Using pink noise tracks from the Alan Parsons Soundcheck disc (something like tracks 10-38 I believe). I'm not sure what else to try. I have both AVR's here and my SPL meter. Access to plenty of other discs, pink noise, sine waves, etc.

I understand that the speakers might have a slightly rolled off top end, which is somewhat known, but to be almost 20dB down from 2kHz to 10kHz when doing NEAR FIELD measurements? I can understand a boost due to room size or the speakers actually needing it a little to be "FLAT" according to Audyssey, but I don't think it can boost more than 6dB's (...a good thing) and if it could then I bet it would if it's measuring what I'm measuring (aka....needing 15+ dB's up top). I'm about to just say F it and enjoy it with Audyssey engaged on my 1712. Not send it in or anything. I have no clue what's going on. lol.

I'm not sure what's happening either? I like your testing procedure. Now, I'm wondering if there is a defect in
Your speakers? Maybe buy some speakers at a best buy (that you can easily return) and run the same test.
If the results are similar then it's gotta be the room. Maybe.wink.gif
grasshoppers is offline  
post #9 of 17 Old 01-21-2014, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ousooner2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 2,118
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 86
SPL meter picks up the huge drop off in the highs from VERY close to the tweeter (6-8"..and closer if needed). Obviously the room matters for everyone, but I think that takes it out of the equation right??


My only other question is: Should pink noise vary in level through the 20hz-20kHz spectrum? If so.....then I could possibly be an idiot. Sure I hear a recess in the highs and measure it, but if pink noise is supposed to do that/naturally do that (roll off...) then of course I'd be measuring that. Hopefully I can dig up the answer or someone here knows.

Panny 65st60 / Denon X1000 / EMP e55ti / EMP e56ci / EMP e5bi / (2) e1010i
ousooner2 is offline  
post #10 of 17 Old 01-21-2014, 05:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
grasshoppers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: aridzona
Posts: 1,898
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 211 Post(s)
Liked: 167
I like my idea of getting different speakers and trying the same test...wink.gif
grasshoppers is offline  
post #11 of 17 Old 01-21-2014, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ousooner2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 2,118
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 86
But different speakers will have a different response all together. You mean if they don't fall flat on their face up top then it's likely the speakers? I see...I could try that. I'm sure there are some cheapo $100-200 bookshelf pairs at BB

Panny 65st60 / Denon X1000 / EMP e55ti / EMP e56ci / EMP e5bi / (2) e1010i
ousooner2 is offline  
post #12 of 17 Old 01-22-2014, 03:40 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,757
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 366 Post(s)
Liked: 510
What SPL meter is this? RS meter's roll off at 7-10 kHz.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
MKtheater is offline  
post #13 of 17 Old 01-22-2014, 04:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Reddig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Hays, KS
Posts: 1,674
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

I like my idea of getting different speakers and trying the same test...wink.gif
This should prolly be your next step. Could get the cheap Pioneer Andrew Jones designed bookshelves at Best Buy or Amazon for under $200 and they are actually a nice little speaker you could put in your computer room or something. Maybe try a different brand of SPL meter.

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B008NCD2LG/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/180-0024030-6182007

You can find them cheaper than this but that's the model

JBL Pro Cinema
Reddig is offline  
post #14 of 17 Old 01-22-2014, 08:15 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ousooner2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 2,118
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

What SPL meter is this? RS meter's roll off at 7-10 kHz.

PM sent back to you

It's the RS digital meter. Not modded. I found a bunch of calibration numbers online and they all seemed to be the same so I went with those. I know it's still a little down in level as Audyssey calls for a boost, but maybe the meter rolls off more than what I've accounted for
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddig View Post

This should prolly be your next step. Could get the cheap Pioneer Andrew Jones designed bookshelves at Best Buy or Amazon for under $200 and they are actually a nice little speaker you could put in your computer room or something. Maybe try a different brand of SPL meter.

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B008NCD2LG/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/180-0024030-6182007

You can find them cheaper than this but that's the model

Yeah I plan on picking some up soon. I need a pair of PC speakers. Looking for something in the $50-100 range/pair. Micca mb42x, Pio AJ bookshelves, etc.

I had a friend that's local offer me to use his SPL meter. Much nicer unit so I'll have to grab that and see what it measures. Just the fact that I had 2 Radioshack meters next to each other and they were both measuring different doesn't instill a lot of confidence in them. Different as in up to 10dB different in some places!

Panny 65st60 / Denon X1000 / EMP e55ti / EMP e56ci / EMP e5bi / (2) e1010i
ousooner2 is offline  
post #15 of 17 Old 01-23-2014, 09:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Reddig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Hays, KS
Posts: 1,674
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Ya that would definilty screw with my head

JBL Pro Cinema
Reddig is offline  
post #16 of 17 Old 01-29-2014, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ousooner2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 2,118
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 86
Just thought I'd post these:






** Haven't had much time to deal with this lately. Sounds great with MultEQ XT on though!! I'm going to try to return my Radioshack meter and get something that I can use REW with on my PC in the other room. The Radioshack meters are like $55-60 so hopefully there's something in that range

Panny 65st60 / Denon X1000 / EMP e55ti / EMP e56ci / EMP e5bi / (2) e1010i
ousooner2 is offline  
post #17 of 17 Old 01-29-2014, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ousooner2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 2,118
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 86
* At the mercy of Galaxy s4 and Youtube compression and quality, but you can easily hear the difference when Audyssey is turned off

Panny 65st60 / Denon X1000 / EMP e55ti / EMP e56ci / EMP e5bi / (2) e1010i
ousooner2 is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Denon Avr 1712 Receiver , Emp Tek E55tir Tower Speakers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off