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post #1 of 23 Old 01-22-2014, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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That's how I feel right now. My head is spinning trying to catch up from what I know/knew about receivers to what I'm seeing now!

I've been a member on here for a long time but kind of dropped out during the dark years of audio/video progression. My last purchase was a Yamaha RX-V1600. Did the job for me and still running like a champ. Problem is, even champs get old and need to retire. Maybe the game room???

In any case, I need help so badly and I have been caught in the vortex of AVS reading and research for a while now and I really don't know if I'm any closer to buying something! So, I thought i'd give something a try to see if you folks can at least help me narrow my search.

I'm going to list the things I know I want, including features that some might poo-poo. It's ok though. Poo on it all you want. Maybe I don't understand the value that the feature actually provides, so I'm more than happy to scratch something off my wants list if it's a general consensus that it's "meh".

First, I will list my speakers so you have an idea of what I'm listening to. No clue if it matters to folks or not but more info can't hurt.

Cobalt 816S towers for fronts, 806S for rears, CC800 for center. Velodyne SPL 1000 (I think. Can't see exact number)

Wants:
  • Good, powerful, clear sound - sci-fi buff and xbox gamer
  • 5.1 because I really don't much care about presence, rear, ceiling or whatever else is out there.
  • Minimum of 5-6 HDMI in ports
  • Whatever it is that I need to properly run my Chromecast. Sounds like MHL??? Unsure here.
  • Airplay
  • Good video! I have seen a few mentions that some products aren't up to par on video these days.
  • Audyssey *Note: I only list that because it seems like most everyone likes it over whatever else is offered. Open to opinion here.
  • Built-in networking.

Things I have no idea if I should care about:
  • 4k passthrough?
  • Phone apps
  • DLNA?
  • MHL
  • Phone USB
  • Listen to music without TV?
  • Multiple HDMI out
  • ARC?
  • Mention of the dual core video processing and such
  • THX Certified
  • Audessey version
  • HDMI 2.0

Don't care at all about
  • Multiple zones
  • Presence speakers
  • Dual subs
  • 3D
  • Turntable

One more thing. Only really saw one site that allowed me to pick certain features, price range, etc. that was any good. Doesn't mean others don't exist but this was the one I found. It gave me three receivers to choose from but I'm not comfortable that I made the right selections, which is what lead me to this post.

I pray some of you give me feedback here. I know opinions are just that, but I'm really looking for some help on adding or eliminating wants/needs first and then maybe I can make a better choice.

Thank-you so much in advance!
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post #2 of 23 Old 01-22-2014, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I realized after I read my post that it appears to be asking somebody to answer all of that for me. Please, if you know ONE thing in there that you can comment on, by all means leave just that feedback. I'm pretty much dead in the water until I find some direction.

Thanks again!
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post #3 of 23 Old 01-22-2014, 08:27 PM
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I personally would stick with Yamaha.  However, you will get YPAO, not Audyssey.  For some of the other features, you will want to look how far up the line you need for them.

 

Regarding this issue of Audyssey versus other automatic setup programs, from any brand, I have never, ever, seen a proper test where they were compared.  But a lack of actual facts does not seem to stop the Audyssey fanboys from posting that it is better than anything else.  If they don't give you a link to a proper test, you can ignore claims of one being vastly better than another.

 

In short, I cannot tell you which is better, or whether Pioneer's version is better, or anyone else's version is better, because I have never seen any proper testing of this point.  Anyone with sense refrains from coming to a conclusion about something when they lack actual facts, but there are plenty of people without sense, so there are plenty of people with opinions when they don't know what they are talking about.

 

I have a Yamaha with YPAO, and I am happy with it.  I expect you would be happy with it, or Audyssey, or Pioneer's automatic setup, or....

 

 

For HDMI version 2, you are likely going to need to wait a bit for new models to come out.  And anything decent these days will have some version of 4k passthrough and ARC, so you will get them whether they matter to you or not.

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post #4 of 23 Old 01-22-2014, 08:55 PM
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One thing you did not mention was price. How much are you willing to spend?

This Yamaha RX-V773 might be all you need if you're on a budget. It has 5 HDMI inputs on back plus one up front.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882115377

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post #5 of 23 Old 01-23-2014, 05:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Good points all around so far. :-)

Price is pretty important, ya? lol

I'm looking at under $900, so there's some room to play from the unit you linked above. Btw, ty for doing that!
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post #6 of 23 Old 01-23-2014, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
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One shameless bump.

Any comments at all on Airplay and/or MHL? If you have one do you not need the other?

I'm sorry for the bump and begging. I just suck at making decisions when so many things I read are confusing and often conflict with each other. If this attempt fails, I promise not to bump bump. :-)
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post #7 of 23 Old 01-23-2014, 05:01 PM
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I second the view that the Yamaha Aventage line at your price point should work well for you. Regarding Air Play if you due itunes and and iphone or ipad it can be useful. The receivers only do audio. You can achieve much more flexibility using an Apple TV which will give you audio and video streaming.

Many newer receivers are getting rid of their legacy connections and are focusing in on HDMI. If you plan to use some older devices with the receiver your connection scheme may be the limiting issue.
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Home Theater is GREAT
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post #8 of 23 Old 01-23-2014, 06:30 PM
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Go through the comparison of the site below and then do a little research on the ones that may interest you. The site gives an opinion on their favorites and the pluses on each. It's a good starting point and may answer some of your questions.

http://www.audioholics.com/how-to-shop/best-midrange-receiver-2013

Most of these AVR's will cost less than the stated price also.
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post #9 of 23 Old 02-10-2014, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Still doing my research and i've confused myself more than I was when I started. BUT, I'm down to two and would love anyone that's heard them both to give me some feedback. I promise I'll go away after this. smile.gif

Yamaha RX-A1020 vs Marantz SR5008

I talked to a couple of folks that know the brands but not the specific receivers and they all seemed convinced that the Marantz was better for music. Thing is, nobody is able to say which one they would prefer for movies/games. I value both so much that I don't want to lose on my home theater side just to get slightly better music.

Any thoughts? If I could go listen to them both I would but there's nothing near me like the good old days.

Thanks in advance!
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post #10 of 23 Old 02-10-2014, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burgh1jc View Post

...

I talked to a couple of folks that know the brands but not the specific receivers and they all seemed convinced that the Marantz was better for music. ...

 

They don't know what they are talking about.  Either one will be fine with music.  If people listened to them in a properly level matched, blind test, as long as the settings were identical, people would not hear a difference between them.  What happens is that people listen to them sighted, without level matching, and without setting them the same, and then convince themselves of all sorts of nonsense.

 

Some of the nonsense can easily be seen to be nonsense.  For example, some people believe that Yamaha receivers sound "bright" (i.e., have an excess of treble).  The thing is, if they were bright, then it would show up in the frequency response.  Yet Yamaha, like all other decent brands of receiver, have a nice flat frequency response.  So the common idea is simply pure BS.

 

Buy the one that has the features you want, that you like the looks of, that you think will be reliable.


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post #11 of 23 Old 02-10-2014, 12:15 PM
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post #12 of 23 Old 02-10-2014, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burgh1jc View Post

Still doing my research and i've confused myself more than I was when I started. BUT, I'm down to two and would love anyone that's heard them both to give me some feedback. I promise I'll go away after this. smile.gif

Yamaha RX-A1020 vs Marantz SR5008

I talked to a couple of folks that know the brands but not the specific receivers and they all seemed convinced that the Marantz was better for music. Thing is, nobody is able to say which one they would prefer for movies/games. I value both so much that I don't want to lose on my home theater side just to get slightly better music.

Any thoughts? If I could go listen to them both I would but there's nothing near me like the good old days.

Thanks in advance!

I just went through the same pain as you. I have an RX-V2090/DDP-2 combination that although working well, needs an update (down sampled HD audio to 2.1). After much deliberation I got the Yamaha RX-A3020 open box from Crutchfield for $1,349.99 (just bought it an hour ago and should be here Wednesday). My thought was this - if my Yamaha lasted around 20 years and still going and I like it, why not get their Aventage line now. Not a Yamaha fanboy, but happy with a brand to me means why change "just because". I am music first, and my setup with my ADS 1290's sound great.
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post #13 of 23 Old 02-10-2014, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MetalManCPA View Post

I just went through the same pain as you. I have an RX-V2090/DDP-2 combination that although working well, needs an update (down sampled HD audio to 2.1). After much deliberation I got the Yamaha RX-A3020 open box from Crutchfield for $1,349.99 (just bought it an hour ago and should be here Wednesday). My thought was this - if my Yamaha lasted around 20 years and still going and I like it, why not get their Aventage line now. Not a Yamaha fanboy, but happy with a brand to me means why change "just because". I am music first, and my setup with my ADS 1290's sound great.

Would you mind updating this when you are done with setup and such? My main concerns are this: how does the Yamaha handle music these days? I've had a couple and they were always ok but I felt like some other receivers I've listened to are more "warm" for lack of a better description. I know it performs incredibly well in home theater and gaming but a little hung up on music for the Yamaha or the home theater on the Marantz. I'm over thinking this stuff.
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post #14 of 23 Old 02-10-2014, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post

But a lack of actual facts does not seem to stop the Audyssey fanboys from posting that it is better than anything else.

Wrong, Anthem's ARC is better than everything else biggrin.gif
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post #15 of 23 Old 02-10-2014, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burgh1jc View Post

Would you mind updating this when you are done with setup and such? My main concerns are this: how does the Yamaha handle music these days? I've had a couple and they were always ok but I felt like some other receivers I've listened to are more "warm" for lack of a better description. I know it performs incredibly well in home theater and gaming but a little hung up on music for the Yamaha or the home theater on the Marantz. I'm over thinking this stuff.

As someone mentioned above, this sort of thing is nonsense. Sure, receivers will sound different out of the box without proper levels matched, etc., but in the end, all the typical brands have a flat response and will sound the same once properly setup. The difference in sound comes when you apply the EQ as they have different systems. The other difference is when you push the receiver as some will run out of steam sooner than others and sound shrill, but even this will depend on the speakers and how much of a demand they're putting on the receiver.

I have heard the mainstream room correction technologies (YPAO, MCACC, Audyssey) and they all do a decent job. Out of those 3, I prefer the sound that Audyssey produces, but the snag is you can't manually mess with it so if you don't like its sound or it simply doesn't agree with your room, you can either disable it or go with another brand. YPAO and MCACC do allow you to manually tweak, but don't EQ the sub which may or may not be an issue. It really comes down to subjective preference as none of these systems do a perfect job and are highly dependent on the room.

All that said, I prefer Anthem's ARC over the 3 I mention above as it shows you exactly what your response looks like uncorrected, the target, and corrected response curve and it usually gets pretty close to flat. However, just because the response is flat, doesn't mean one will like it.
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post #16 of 23 Old 02-10-2014, 03:04 PM
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I am not claiming that ypao is better than any level of audyssey.
However the 2000 series and up Yamaha does eq the subwoofer.
the 2013 models even eq dual subs separately. And all the yamaha's
give you more eq choices than flat. Natural is not bright. Flat can be.
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post #17 of 23 Old 02-10-2014, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post


Some of the nonsense can easily be seen to be nonsense.  For example, some people believe that Yamaha receivers sound "bright" (i.e., have an excess of treble).  The thing is, if they were bright, then it would show up in the frequency response.  Yet Yamaha, like all other decent brands of receiver, have a nice flat frequency response.  So the common idea is simply pure BS.

Not exactly...
The Yamaha AVRs typically have a lower damping factor.. Damping factor is the ability of an audio amplifier to control loudspeaker motion and prevent ringing. It is calculated as loudspeaker load impedance divided by the amplifier's output impedance. If the speaker impedance is 8 ohms, and the amplifier output impedance is 0.01 ohms, the damping factor is 800. That's a simple explanation. Since the speaker impedance and amplifier output impedance vary with frequency, so does the damping factor. Also, the impedance of the speaker cable affects damping, thick loudspeaker cables (with low AWG) allow more damping than thin cables with (high AWG).

The lower the amplifier's output impedance, the higher the damping factor, and the tighter the sound is. A high damping factor equals tight bass....
Note that to actually hear this, one should be using quality, high-resolution full-range loudspeakers. However since in today's home theater market >80% of the systems are using subwoofer/satelite loudspeaker systems many will not hear this difference. But talk with a pro-audio engineer and they know very well about the damping factor, just that in the consumer circles there is a general lack of awareness for this crucial specification....

Just my $0.05.... 👍😉
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post #18 of 23 Old 02-10-2014, 04:32 PM
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Not exactly...
The Yamaha AVRs typically have a lower damping factor.. Damping factor is the ability of an audio amplifier to control loudspeaker motion and prevent ringing. It is calculated as loudspeaker load impedance divided by the amplifier's output impedance. If the speaker impedance is 8 ohms, and the amplifier output impedance is 0.01 ohms, the damping factor is 800. That's a simple explanation. Since the speaker impedance and amplifier output impedance vary with frequency, so does the damping factor. Also, the impedance of the speaker cable affects damping, thick loudspeaker cables (with low AWG) allow more damping than thin cables with (high AWG).

The lower the amplifier's output impedance, the higher the damping factor, and the tighter the sound is. A high damping factor equals tight bass....
Note that to actually hear this, one should be using quality, high-resolution full-range loudspeakers. However since in today's home theater market >80% of the systems are using subwoofer/satelite loudspeaker systems many will not hear this difference. But talk with a pro-audio engineer and they know very well about the damping factor, just that in the consumer circles there is a general lack of awareness for this crucial specification....

Just my $0.05.... 👍😉

Can't help but wonder how we were unable to find audible differences between solid state hifi amps regardless of damping factor. Our conclusion is that damping factor is not audible.
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post #19 of 23 Old 02-11-2014, 05:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Good lord you guys are smart.

As much as I wanted to force myself to the Marantz to see what all the hubbub was with the Audessey, the inability to play with the sub bothers me a bit. Not that I know more than they do but I do like to be able to play around a bit if I feel like it.

Guessing it's another Yamaha for me. smile.gif
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post #20 of 23 Old 02-11-2014, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post


Some of the nonsense can easily be seen to be nonsense.  For example, some people believe that Yamaha receivers sound "bright" (i.e., have an excess of treble).  The thing is, if they were bright, then it would show up in the frequency response.  Yet Yamaha, like all other decent brands of receiver, have a nice flat frequency response.  So the common idea is simply pure BS.

Not exactly...
The Yamaha AVRs typically have a lower damping factor..

Please document this claim.
Quote:
Damping factor is the ability of an audio amplifier to control loudspeaker motion and prevent ringing. \

Well, that happens but its not the only potentially audible effect.

So-called damping factor is exactly related to another property called Source Impedance by a simple mathematical formula that is well known and can easily be found online.

I prefer Source Impedance because it seems easier to use it to explain the most commonly audible effect, which is simply frequency response with a loudspeaker load.

An amplifier with a high damping factor or lower source impedance provides a flatter frequency response to a loudspeaker load when the impedance of the speaker varies with frequency.
Quote:
It is calculated as loudspeaker load impedance divided by the amplifier's output impedance. If the speaker impedance is 8 ohms, and the amplifier output impedance is 0.01 ohms, the damping factor is 800. That's a simple explanation. Since the speaker impedance and amplifier output impedance vary with frequency, so does the damping factor. Also, the impedance of the speaker cable affects damping, thick loudspeaker cables (with low AWG) allow more damping than thin cables with (high AWG).

All true.
Quote:
The lower the amplifier's output impedance, the higher the damping factor, and the tighter the sound is. A higher damping factor equals tight bass.

The focus here on bass is one reason why I dislike the phrase Damping Factor. Often the most audible effects of an amplifier with unduely high source impedance are in the midrange, not the bass.
Quote:
Note that to actually hear this, one should be using quality, high-resolution full-range loudspeakers. However since in today's home theater market >80% of the systems are using subwoofer/satelite loudspeaker systems many will not hear this difference. But talk with a pro-audio engineer and they know very well about the damping factor, just that in the consumer circles there is a general lack of awareness for this crucial specification....

Just my $0.05.... 👍😉

My real problem with the discussion above is that I know of no general rule that says that amplfiers or AVRs have exceptionally high source impedance (or low damping factor) because Yamaha is on the front panel. As the comments above suggest, damping factor or low source impedance are strongly influenced by the law of diminishing returns because even average speaker cable (say 16 gauge) can have enough series resistance to swamp any real world differences due to amplifier source impedance.

So what I see now is some true facts with questionable application to the issue at hand - do Yamaha AVRs and amps congenitally sound bright?
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post #21 of 23 Old 02-11-2014, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burgh1jc View Post

Good lord you guys are smart.

As much as I wanted to force myself to the Marantz to see what all the hubbub was with the Audessey, the inability to play with the sub bothers me a bit. Not that I know more than they do but I do like to be able to play around a bit if I feel like it.

Obviously Marantz is not the only brand with Audyssey - Onkyo and Denon use it, too.

Secondly Audyssey comes in multiple flavors and strengths, some try to optimize the subs, some don't.

Just because your AVR doesn't optimize your subs doesn't mean that you can't get a USB mic, REW, and a parametric equalizer for a few $100 and optimize your sub(s) every which way but loose all by yourself. Manual optimization is always an option.
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post #22 of 23 Old 02-20-2014, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post


Some of the nonsense can easily be seen to be nonsense.  For example, some people believe that Yamaha receivers sound "bright" (i.e., have an excess of treble).  The thing is, if they were bright, then it would show up in the frequency response.  Yet Yamaha, like all other decent brands of receiver, have a nice flat frequency response.  So the common idea is simply pure BS.

Not exactly...
The Yamaha AVRs typically have a lower damping factor.. Damping factor is the ability of an audio amplifier to control loudspeaker motion and prevent ringing. It is calculated as loudspeaker load impedance divided by the amplifier's output impedance. If the speaker impedance is 8 ohms, and the amplifier output impedance is 0.01 ohms, the damping factor is 800. That's a simple explanation. Since the speaker impedance and amplifier output impedance vary with frequency, so does the damping factor. Also, the impedance of the speaker cable affects damping, thick loudspeaker cables (with low AWG) allow more damping than thin cables with (high AWG).

The lower the amplifier's output impedance, the higher the damping factor, and the tighter the sound is. A high damping factor equals tight bass....
Note that to actually hear this, one should be using quality, high-resolution full-range loudspeakers. However since in today's home theater market >80% of the systems are using subwoofer/satelite loudspeaker systems many will not hear this difference. But talk with a pro-audio engineer and they know very well about the damping factor, just that in the consumer circles there is a general lack of awareness for this crucial specification....

Just my $0.05.... 👍😉

 

Do you have any actual data on the relative damping factor of Yamaha gear versus other gear?  If so, please provide a link or source for this information.  If not, your claim is totally without foundation at all.

 

Also, damping factor is much less important than you seem to imagine:

 

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/damping-factor-effects-on-system-response

 

Again, anyone who pays attention to actual facts will know that the idea that Yamaha amps sound "bright" is pure nonsense.


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post #23 of 23 Old 02-20-2014, 09:35 AM
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Also, damping factor is much less important than you seem to imagine:

 

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/damptoole.htm

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